[Coeman140]

So just to be clear these are for E blends only?

I was under the impression you run out of tuning potential on pump 93oct/98ron before you run out of HPFP.
And therefore to realise HP gains from the HPFP upgrade on a stock turbo E blends would be required, the extra fuel required being supplied by the HPFP upgrade.

These numbers seem insane for stock turbo. Makes my 370whp (not dynojet) seem a little lack luster.

[B58togo]

God damn, I love the B58. I think we can safely say (albeit after a rocky couple years after its release), that the B58 is well ahead of the N54 regarding power potential on the stock turbo, and even further ahead from a reliability standpoint.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Coeman140

So just to be clear these are for E blends only?

I was under the impression you run out of tuning potential on pump 93oct/98ron before you run out of HPFP.
And therefore to realise HP gains from the HPFP upgrade on a stock turbo E blends would be required, the extra fuel required being supplied by the HPFP upgrade.

These numbers seem insane for stock turbo. Makes my 370whp (not dynojet) seem a little lack luster.

There will be some gains on 93, but not nearly as much. The turbo taps out before you become octane limited. But OTS maps are very boost conservative, so a high pressure fuel pump will allow more PSI.

Originally Posted by B58togo

God damn, I love the B58. I think we can safely say (albeit after a rocky couple years after its release), that the B58 is well ahead of the N54 regarding power potential on the stock turbo, and even further ahead from a reliability standpoint.

I think the main thing that n54 and N55 guys don't understand is upgrading the fuel pump on stock turbo will greatly improve the stock turbo's performance. But people are so used to looking at turbo upgrades before fueling upgrades. The B58 development trend is finally showing how important fuel and octane is.

[marcthedark]

To get back to 93 for a moment. If I use 93 a better fuel pump won’t help me as I won’t get the stock one to the limit with with stock turbo.
So $1k would be better spend on a Pure 1 upgrade or a custom tune.

[weehe126]

Originally Posted by kern417

There will be some gains on 93, but not nearly as much. The turbo taps out before you become octane limited. But OTS maps are very boost conservative, so a high pressure fuel pump will allow more PSI.

Very interested in this statement. I've seen people get 19-21psi on the stock turbo on E blends. Have you seen a log where someone ran this much boost on 93, even with 0 timing? How does increased rail pressure, when you aren't already low on rail pressure, help allow more timing/boost on 93?

[kern417]

Originally Posted by marcthedark

To get back to 93 for a moment. If I use 93 a better fuel pump won’t help me as I won’t get the stock one to the limit with with stock turbo.
So $1k would be better spend on a Pure 1 upgrade or a custom tune.

Originally Posted by weehe126

Very interested in this statement. I've seen people get 19-21psi on the stock turbo on E blends. Have you seen a log where someone ran this much boost on 93, even with 0 timing? How does increased rail pressure, when you aren't already low on rail pressure, help allow more timing/boost on 93?

16psi is wimpy. Let's face it. And an upgraded fuel pump will allow more boost pressure. 20psi on 93 should be similar to 16-17psi on E30. So I'd expect 20-30hp gains with a fuel pump on stock turbo/93 octane.

The MHD dyno reads high, but if you pay attention to the delta they made 50hp with the fuel pump compared to their original STG 2 E30 map. So I don't see why 20-30 gain on 93 is out of the question. On most dynojets i'd bet it's ~440whp.

The problem is the 20+psi stock turbo logs I've seen run very low timing for some reason. So they won't make much more power than OTS maps from MHD/BM3 that run less boost. A bigger turbo frees things up top, so you should be able to make even more power on 93 octane with the same pump with an upgraded turbo.

ymmv.

[theone1973]

Originally Posted by kern417

16psi is wimpy. Let's face it. And an upgraded fuel pump will allow more boost pressure. 20psi on 93 should be similar to 16-17psi on E30. So I'd expect 20-30hp gains with a fuel pump on stock turbo/93 octane.

The MHD dyno reads high, but if you pay attention to the delta they made 50hp with the fuel pump compared to their original STG 2 E30 map. So I don't see why 20-30 gain on 93 is out of the question. On most dynojets i'd bet it's ~440whp.

The problem is the 20+psi stock turbo logs I've seen run very low timing for some reason. So they won't make much more power than OTS maps from MHD/BM3 that run less boost. A bigger turbo frees things up top, so you should be able to make even more power on 93 octane with the same pump with an upgraded turbo.

ymmv.

Hey !

When i ask Fabian Pureboost about this he says no gains on pump fuel only. There must add some e fuel to be gains..

I sold my hpfp again I will not go e-fuel on my car.

[OzBMR]

Originally Posted by weehe126

Very interested in this statement. I've seen people get 19-21psi on the stock turbo on E blends. Have you seen a log where someone ran this much boost on 93, even with 0 timing? How does increased rail pressure, when you aren't already low on rail pressure, help allow more timing/boost on 93?

I ran a DervTech flash tune mid-2019 for a short time, on straight 93 it was very poor. It ran a lot of boost, 20 - 22 PSI from 3200 - 6000 RPM then tapered. Timing was low single digits at best, about 390 WHP even at 93 with ethanol added to E12. Best quarter with that set up was 11.8@118mph with Hoosier drag radials and 1.8 60ft (M140i RWD)

They didn't touch the stock timing maps and the DME just pulled heaps of timing due to the lack of octane.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=104

Greater fuel flow wouldn't have helped with straight 93 octane. The only thing that helped was less boost and more octane via ethanol within the limits of the HPFP.

On 93 octane only and stock turbo the stock fuel pump is more than enough to find the octane limit of the fuel - about 400 WHP/ 450 HP engine is all you can hope for.

[weehe126]

Originally Posted by OzBMR

Greater fuel flow wouldn't have helped with straight 93 octane. The only thing that helped was less boost and more octane via ethanol within the limits of the HPFP.

On 93 octane only and stock turbo the stock fuel pump is more than enough to find the octane limit of the fuel - about 400 WHP/ 450 HP engine is all you can hope for.

Exactly why I'm asking the questions I am. Doesn't seem people understand the difference between a hpfp upgrade allowing more rail pressure on E mixes vs 93 not running out of fuel pressure on stock hpfp.

[kern417]

I'm struggling with that, because you need fuel for boost and E (octane) for timing. So I don't understand how adding more boost in the 19-20psi range would limit your timing. MHD OTS maps run 17-18psi on stage 2 93 already. There's more capacity in the turbo with the fuel to support it, i.e. hpfp.

[weehe126]

Originally Posted by kern417

I'm struggling with that, because you need fuel for boost and E (octane) for timing. So I don't understand how adding more boost in the 19-20psi range would limit your timing. MHD OTS maps run 17-18psi on stage 2 93 already. There's more capacity in the turbo with the fuel to support it, i.e. hpfp.

You aren't fully understanding it. Boost needs octane too. We know the turbo can do 20-21psi with an E mix if you have proper fuel pressure. If you run 20-21psi on 93 you would have 0 or negative timing so you don't blow up your engine due to knock. So what I'm saying is that you do run out of octane before your run out of fuel pressure when on 93 only. If you are on 93 and have no fuel pressure issues, why would a hpfp upgrade help? Why else would people be running E30 if you could max out the stock turbo on 93?

[tobefair-idontcare]

Originally Posted by weehe126

You aren't fully understanding it. Boost needs octane too. We know the turbo can do 20-21psi with an E mix if you have proper fuel pressure. If you run 20-21psi on 93 you would have 0 or negative timing so you don't blow up your engine due to knock. So what I'm saying is that you do run out of octane before your run out of fuel pressure when on 93 only. If you are on 93 and have no fuel pressure issues, why would a hpfp upgrade help? Why else would people be running E30 if you could max out the stock turbo on 93?

If this is the case, then why are the newer B58s making so much more power on pump gas? From what I understand, the only real difference is the factory tune (which doesn't matter after it's tuned) and the HPFP so how can companies like Mission Performance make 30hp/60tq more using the same 93 octane?

I honestly don't know. I'm just try to learn from these subs so I know how best to modify my car.

Thanks.

[weehe126]

Originally Posted by tobefair-idontcare

If this is the case, then why are the newer B58s making so much more power on pump gas? From what I understand, the only real difference is the factory tune (which doesn't matter after it's tuned) and the HPFP so how can companies like Mission Performance make 30hp/60tq more using the same 93 octane?

I honestly don't know. I'm just try to learn from these subs so I know how best to modify my car.

Thanks.

What are you defining as a new B58? Technical updates to the engine could increase power on 93. Again, no one is running out of fuel pressure on 93, so a better hpfp will not help anything. If MHD found extra tables or something on the tuning side, that would be the only way people will make more on 93.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by weehe126

You aren't fully understanding it. Boost needs octane too. We know the turbo can do 20-21psi with an E mix if you have proper fuel pressure. If you run 20-21psi on 93 you would have 0 or negative timing so you don't blow up your engine due to knock. So what I'm saying is that you do run out of octane before your run out of fuel pressure when on 93 only. If you are on 93 and have no fuel pressure issues, why would a hpfp upgrade help? Why else would people be running E30 if you could max out the stock turbo on 93?

Originally Posted by tobefair-idontcare

If this is the case, then why are the newer B58s making so much more power on pump gas? From what I understand, the only real difference is the factory tune (which doesn't matter after it's tuned) and the HPFP so how can companies like Mission Performance make 30hp/60tq more using the same 93 octane?

I honestly don't know. I'm just try to learn from these subs so I know how best to modify my car.

Thanks.

Adding ethanol puts you near the limits of the fuel system. Nobody said that you are at the limits on 93. But you will be when you begin increasing boost. So a hpfp will help. They are showing that we are hitting supra numbers on E30 by simply swapping the supra pump. Why wouldn't we be able to hit supra numbers on 93 as well?

This is the first car I've ever had were a tune runs less than 20psi, so forgive me if this is BMW thing. But I know people running 20psi by adding jb4 on top of OTS maps and then using meth to fill the gap. Yeah it also adds octane, but I don't see why adding more pump gas wouldn't have the same effect, although to a lesser degree. We just don't have an easy way to fill the fuel pressure gap so people have been using meth until recently. So yeah, you'll need a hpfp to run 20+ psi on 93.

Just look at the current stage 2 OTS tunes. They don't increase boost with e30. They run the same boost, just more timing. That's common on cars where the turbo is tapped out, but we benefit from it early because the engine is high compression. So again, it would make sense to me that stage 2+ 93 could also run the same 19-20 psi with a more modest 12*-13* of timing.

At the end of the day MHD isn't in the habit of leaving money on the table, so I'm sure they'd put the maps out there if they thought it was worth it. But to that I say, get a custom tune elsewhere and see if you can't get more out of it.

[weehe126]

Ok, I wish your ringlands luck. 93 at 21psi FTW!

[OzBMR]

Originally Posted by kern417

I'm struggling with that, because you need fuel for boost and E (octane) for timing. So I don't understand how adding more boost in the 19-20psi range would limit your timing. MHD OTS maps run 17-18psi on stage 2 93 already. There's more capacity in the turbo with the fuel to support it, i.e. hpfp.

I think the OTS 93 octane maps are already maxed out, in fact already too much load targeted, resulting in excessive boost and poor timing. Targeting more torque/load/boost will not provide any notable benefit.

You can see the difference in the first dyno chart in the link I posted above comparing MHD Stage 2 95 octane to DervTech 93 octane, both using 93 fuel with E12.

By adding more boost you do get more torque low down in the 3000 - 4000 RPM range, but past 5500 RPM makes lower torque and power as timing is low.

On straight 93 the higher boost result would have been even lower and if I'd compared to the MHD Stage 2 93 octane map it may have performed even better as target load and timing is more conservative.

The version 1 B58 has relatively high compression ratio of 11.0:1 which makes it more sensitive to octane and increased charge temperatures as the higher static compression increases cylinder mix temperatures. This is why adding ethanol is so beneficial as it not only increases octane but also provides a charge cooling effect.

From my experience and testing a range of tunes and fuels the stock HPFP can maintain target rail pressure on straight 93 at 20 - 22 PSI through to 6000 RPM, but you will make less power due to poor timing.

[SC_B5X]

Originally Posted by theone1973

Hey !

When i ask Fabian Pureboost about this he says no gains on pump fuel only. There must add some e fuel to be gains..

I sold my hpfp again I will not go e-fuel on my car.

Why wouldn't you...?

[theone1973]

Originally Posted by SC_B5X

Why wouldn't you...?

I think its a mess to calculate this. I want it as easy as possible. Pump fuel and just go...fast as possible

[B58togo]

It’s not complicated, and so worth the extra power. Plus it’s cheap. Use the following calculator to help. It’s never going to be an exact science, but if you understand your tank capacity, it’s pretty simple.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/ethanol-mix-calc.php

[yokata]

Originally Posted by B58togo

It’s not complicated, and so worth the extra power. Plus it’s cheap. Use the following calculator to help. It’s never going to be an exact science, but if you understand your tank capacity, it’s pretty simple.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/ethanol-mix-calc.php

Ok for example for e30 i put on 30liters gas 10liters ethanol, ok but when i have to refuel and i have 15 liters of that mixture how to calculate how much ethanol to put in the tank.If i put 15more liters it will be 30 liters(half tank) but i will not know the real octane inside so i cant put 10 liters E again.Tell me if im wrong and sorry for my english.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by yokata

Ok for example for e30 i put on 30liters gas 10liters ethanol, ok but when i have to refuel and i have 15 liters of that mixture how to calculate how much ethanol to put in the tank.If i put 15more liters it will be 30 liters(half tank) but i will not know the real octane inside so i cant put 10 liters E again.Tell me if im wrong and sorry for my english.

There are many apps in the app store that will help you calculate the mix. You put in how much gas is in the tank and your desired ethanol percentage, and it tells you how much 93 and E85 to fill up with.

But first you must know:
- your tank's ethanol content
- your pump's ethanol content

Get a cheap tester to verify the actual ethanol content and you're good to go.

[SC_B5X]

Originally Posted by theone1973

I think its a mess to calculate this. I want it as easy as possible. Pump fuel and just go...fast as possible

It takes me no more than 5 minutes at the pump. Just calculate it with a simple calculator you can find online, or even download Spool's app "Spool Ethanol Analyzer" and do it there. E85 is the cheapest and safest way to push these cars. The alternative is meth (complicated and annoying), and race gas (expensive as hell).