[IMS-340C]

Nice thanks, but why are you adding boostane if you have Ethanol ? do you have any logs ?

Originally Posted by Jnat

I'm running the Stg 2+ 95 MHD tune with a shot of boostane, 93 octane and a gallon or two of ethanol. Results have been strong.

[WrxToBeamerGuy]

Originally Posted by IMS-340C

But to burn more fuel you need more air.

The DME has a pre-determined AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) in a LOAD/RPM/AFR table. (See 1st post)

It only adjusts the F part of AFR but not the A.

This is a quick comparison I did between Gasoline only and Gasoline + 20% Ethanol:

100-200 MHD Stage 1 95 - Gasoline only: 9.3 seconds.
100-200 MHD Stage 1 95 - Gasoline + E20: 9.6 seconds.

I dont see the posts from the two people you are quoting. Are they writing this in a different thread or are they pming you?

[IMS-340C]

Yes they are replying in a different thread don know why

Originally Posted by WrxToBeamerGuy

I dont see the posts from the two people you are quoting. Are they writing this in a different thread or are they pming you?

[IMS-340C]

Good positive discussion with gantona

Originally Posted by IMS-340C

I noticed lately there are questions and some confusion about Ethanol.

Here are some answers and information about Ethanol:

- Ethanol is NOT ROCKET FUEL, it's an Alcohol which is actually less Flammable and has less Combustion energy than Gasoline.
- Ethanol works as an Octane Booster which allows the use of more Boost/Timing which translate to more power.
- Up to 10% Ethanol clears most Timing Corrections.
- Up to 30% Ethanol allows the use of a higher Tune, example from Stage 1 91/95 up to Stage 2 95/102.
- Gasoline Tunes can be used with Ethanol mixed Fuel but Ethanol Tunes can't be used with Ethanol free Fuel.
- Ethanol is not needed if there are no Timing corrections and if there is a good Timing Advance of 14 degrees at 6500-6800 RPM.
- The Stock HPFP maxes out at around 30-32% Ethanol when running high Boost because Ethanol has higher Density than Gasoline.
- Gasoline mixed with Ethanol to reach XX octane produce less power than same XX octane Ethanol free Gasoline.
- E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% Gasoline.

Originally Posted by gantona

I may be wrong, but I don't agree about the sentence in bold.
more ethanol need to be injected to get clean on AFR.
if same octane rating than non E fuel, DME will add more fuel to have the correct AFR. It will give same power as non E fuel, but using more fuel...

please correct me if I'm wrong

Originally Posted by IMS-340C

But to burn more fuel you need more air.

The DME has a pre-determined AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) in a LOAD/RPM/AFR table. (See 1st post)

It only adjusts the F part of AFR but not the A.

This is a quick comparison I did between Gasoline only and Gasoline + 20% Ethanol:

100-200 MHD Stage 1 95 - Gasoline only: 9.3 seconds.
100-200 MHD Stage 1 95 - Gasoline + E20: 9.6 seconds.

Originally Posted by gantona

hum... you may be right.

I had in mind at the same octane level, same tune, both fuels type will give same power but more fuel will be added by fuel trims to match AFR

From my perspective, to match AFR, it is normal it only adjust F, but not A. for the same Air quantity, he need to add more Fuel (E has different stoichiometric ratio).

So, now, I still don't understand why we may have less power, considering AFR tables are met, and we have same ignition targets (considering we do not have any correction on both fuels).

thanks btw to share all your knowledge, it's very interesting !

Originally Posted by IMS-340C

Thanks to you.

We have 3 main categories that affect performance: Timing - Air - Fuel

1- Timing: Both fuels same octane = same timing.
2- Air: The DME doesn't adjust boost based on fuel mixture.
3- Fuel: To burn more fuel you need extra air (boost) to get extra power.
But according to point no.2 you don't have extra air (boost) so you'll not have extra power..

So whenever the DME trims AFR it's to protect the engine not for performance.

Originally Posted by gantona

This is where I don’t agree (or don’t understand lol)
For the same air, you need to add more fuel because of ethanol.
So yes, we need more fuel, but no need more air because stochiometric ratio is not the same.

So, same octane, same timing, same air, more fuel to match AFR request.
From my perspective it should give same power.

Originally Posted by IMS-340C

One more try

Think out of stochiometric ratio for a minute

Ethanol is lazier than Gasoline so Gasoline mixed with Ethanol is harder to combust and actually needs more air so adding more fuel without more air will worsen the problem.

And I measured Dragy 100-200 for both fuels on same tune and the Ethanol mix was slower.

Originally Posted by gantona

Pure gasoline AFR is 14.7:1
let's assume E25 is 13:1

to burn 1L of pure gasoline we need 14.7L of air
= 1L of air is used with 0.068L of pure gasoline (1/14.7)

to burn 1L of E25 we need 13:1
= 1l of air is used with 0.076L of E25


So this means, we need 0.008L more E25 fuel to consume the same 1L of air
Based on lamba sensor (which mesure AFR on the exhaust), fuel trim will add 0.008L to use the same 1L of air.

So I don't understand why you are saying we need more air to consume E mix since we actually need more fuel to burn the same volume of air...

Originally Posted by IMS-340C

Ok you convinced me on this point

But for the main point of the discussion the lower combustion energy of Ethanol is greater than the extra fuel used.

Originally Posted by gantona

Yes, this is where I’m lost…
There should be something more which actually generating more or less power (outside of timing, boost/fuel quantity).

Calories / cc ??

I would love to understand why pure gas gives more power than E blend on a given tune (assuming everything works fine)

Btw, thanks for the interesting discussion

Originally Posted by IMS-340C

Yeah definitely interesting discussion.

Ethanol has around 30% less energy than Gasoline but it allows us to use much more boost and timing so that overcomes the power lost and even adds up much more power on top of it.

So it's not about the combustion power of Ethanol but the Anti Knock benefit it provides to Gasoline.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...honda/7732959/

[dinan5m3]

Originally Posted by WrxToBeamerGuy

Use this calc.

https://www.brewcity**********/ethanol-calculator/

Originally Posted by dinan5m3

What is the (E85) Octane?



At the local Sheetz pump, doesn't say what the E85 octane is, should it?

Looks like around 100 AKI for the octane rating,


Some good info here,

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...6/post-6089948

[IMS-340C]

Self Made Tune Progress, increased Ethanol to E18, increased boost to 16.5-17 psi:

https://datazap.me/u/ims/e18-2000?lo...35-36-37-38-39

100-200 vvvv

[IMS-340C]

And 200-250 vvvv

[Jnat]

Originally Posted by IMS-340C

Nice thanks, but why are you adding boostane if you have Ethanol ? do you have any logs ?

I've tried all MHD maps and after upgrading the HPFP i used the E40 map which was fantastic and provided great performance. I'm just not thrilled with having to run that much ethanol, it's not convenient at all here in NJ. I have 11 five gallon containers but it's a pain because it's an hour drive each way to get it. If it were more convenient i would stay with it. Hence, i tried the 95 map with ethanol and get lean codes consistently for some reason. Bottom line, with boostane and a splash of E i get pretty good logs.

Yes i have logs, would love to post, have asked how, for whatever reason I haven't pulled off. If you have an idiot proof description of how to post a log, i will try again... yes I'm a self admitted idiot...

[IMS-340C]

open your log > copy what's in the address bar > paste here.

Originally Posted by Jnat

I've tried all MHD maps and after upgrading the HPFP i used the E40 map which was fantastic and provided great performance. I'm just not thrilled with having to run that much ethanol, it's not convenient at all here in NJ. I have 11 five gallon containers but it's a pain because it's an hour drive each way to get it. If it were more convenient i would stay with it. Hence, i tried the 95 map with ethanol and get lean codes consistently for some reason. Bottom line, with boostane and a splash of E i get pretty good logs.

Yes i have logs, would love to post, have asked how, for whatever reason I haven't pulled off. If you have an idiot proof description of how to post a log, i will try again... yes I'm a self admitted idiot...

[dinan5m3]

Would one of the OTS stage 2 tune PLEASE (safely) give me close to and hair above 400 rwhp on 93 pump gas on high flow DP ............. like in these videos

[IMS-340C]

I target performance (100-200) rather than TQ/HP numbers.

Do you have a recent log ?

Originally Posted by dinan5m3

Would one of the OTS stage 2 tune PLEASE (safely) give me close to and hair above 400 rwhp on 93 pump gas on high flow DP ............. like in these videos

[dinan5m3]

Originally Posted by IMS-340C

I target performance (100-200) rather than TQ/HP numbers.

Do you have a recent log ?

What is (100-200) referring to?

I'll get some fresh logs this weekend.

Also i'm going on local dyno (MD-AWD-150) next week to get stage 2 #'s from all 3 OTS platforms with high flow DP, to compare on 93 AKI tune.

[IMS-340C]

Dragy 100-200 km/h.

Originally Posted by dinan5m3

What is (100-200) referring to?

I'll get some fresh logs this weekend.

Also i'm going on local dyno (MD-AWD-150) next week to get stage 2 #'s from all 3 OTS platforms with high flow DP, to compare on 93 AKI tune.

[markoz28]

Originally Posted by IMS-340C

Self Made Tune Progress, increased Ethanol to E18, increased boost to 16.5-17 psi:

https://datazap.me/u/ims/e18-2000?lo...35-36-37-38-39

100-200 vvvv

I’ll be getting 10 gallons of E tomorrow. I plan on running E18 as well. The goals is to run 2 gallons of E with 93 octane (full tank), E is not local to me but about a 30min drive from me. 2 gallons at a time to make sure octane is sufficient and no timing pulled. I want to run stage 2 93 octane.

[IMS-340C]

Yeah E18 is more than enough to clear timing corrections.

Originally Posted by markoz28

I’ll be getting 10 gallons of E tomorrow. I plan on running E18 as well. The goals is to run 2 gallons of E with 93 octane (full tank), E is not local to me but about a 30min drive from me. 2 gallons at a time to make sure octane is sufficient and no timing pulled. I want to run stage 2 93 octane.

[dinan5m3]

Originally Posted by IMS-340C

Yeah E18 is more than enough to clear timing corrections.

In US, with 93 octane pump gas that has up to E10 blend, wouldn't E10 alone mixed in 93 octane be enough to clear timing corrections when running OTS (MHD) 93 octane tune?

[G.Newt]

Originally Posted by dinan5m3

In US, with 93 octane pump gas that has up to E10 blend, wouldn't E10 alone mixed in 93 octane be enough to clear timing corrections when running OTS (MHD) 93 octane tune?

That's 93 AKI with E10 already accounted for.

[dinan5m3]

Originally Posted by G.Newt

That's 93 AKI with E10 already accounted for.

The ECA shows E10 with 93 AKI in the fuel tank.

So what should the ECA read with 93 AKI in the tank to help clear up timing?

[G.Newt]

Originally Posted by dinan5m3

The ECA shows E10 with 93 AKI in the fuel tank.

So what should the ECA read with 93 AKI in the tank to help clear up timing?

Whatever amount you need to get clean timing. There's no one size fits all answer. Add a gallon, log. Adjust from there.

[dinan5m3]

Originally Posted by G.Newt

Whatever amount you need to get clean timing. There's no one size fits all answer. Add a gallon, log. Adjust from there.

Right, i get that.

I was just going by earlier comment about E18 being more than enough.

But then again as stated there's on one answer.

I was just asking if E10 is supposed to, in general help with timing because it's everywhere at US pump.

I guess i'll just need to find my own sweet spot.

[G.Newt]

Originally Posted by dinan5m3

Right, i get that.

I was just going by earlier comment about E18 being more than enough.

But then again as stated there's on one answer.

I was just asking if E10 is supposed to, in general help with timing because it's everywhere at US pump.

It would if it wasn't accounted for in the AKI octane rating. But it is. So 93 is 93. Now, not all gas is equal. AKI is the average of RON and MON. A higher MON is what you want. So you can get the same "93" from 2 different stations but they'll perform differently if one uses a higher MON and lower RON, vs a higher RON and lower MON.

[dinan5m3]

Originally Posted by G.Newt

It would if it wasn't accounted for in the AKI octane rating. But it is. So 93 is 93. Now, not all gas is equal. AKI is the average of RON and MON. A higher MON is what you want. So you can get the same "93" from 2 different stations but they'll perform differently if one uses a higher MON and lower RON, vs a higher RON and lower MON.

Good grief...

So, just for sake of argument, and if this even is a valid argument to make:

Take two fuels.

Both have same RON and MON so that both fuels have equal AKI of 93 octane rating, "but" one has 0% E and the other has 10% E.

If i'm allowed to continue to next step, then:

Would me adding 10% Ethanol to the first fuel with 0% Ethanol yield the same result (fuel) as the other second fuel with 10% Ethanol in it?