[johnung]

After the FlexFuel required hardware is installed, a BootMod3 MultiMap tune must be flashed. A base map is chosen, I presume that it is supposed to match the base fuel being used in the tank before E85 is added.

So that might be say one of these:
1) Stage2 91
2) Stage2 93
3) E30

Assume that E50 is placed in the tank and the CANBus sensor tells the ECU that it's fuel is E50. Since FlexFuel algorithms automatically scale the tune up to use E50, then are all three of these tunes essentially identical? Or does the fact that the three started as different tunes effect their performance with E50? Thanks!

Car/Mods: F30 335ix N55 EWG FBO with Dorch2, LPFP upgrade, Zeitronix CANBus sensor, 3.5bar TMAPs.

[n55david]

Originally Posted by johnung

After the FlexFuel required hardware is installed, a BootMod3 MultiMap tune must be flashed. A base map is chosen, I presume that it is supposed to match the base fuel being used in the tank before E85 is added.

So that might be say one of these:
1) Stage2 91
2) Stage2 93
3) E30

Assume that E50 is placed in the tank and the CANBus sensor tells the ECU that it's fuel is E50. Since FlexFuel algorithms automatically scale the tune up to use E50, then are all three of these tunes essentially identical? Or does the fact that the three started as different tunes effect their performance with E50? Thanks!

Car/Mods: F30 335ix N55 EWG FBO with Dorch2, LPFP upgrade, Zeitronix CANBus sensor, 3.5bar TMAPs.

good question. Message pro tuning freaks and ask them.

[thejeremyman9]

Agree to ask support, and also post up some logs on each map using the same fuel and we can check if the logs are idential

[johnung]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Agree to ask support, and also post up some logs on each map using the same fuel and we can check if the logs are idential

Yeah, I'm waiting for a response from PTF. Also waiting for my local station to get E85 back in stock. Thank goodness that FlexFuel is like having a Flux Capacitor. I can put any fuel in it and it will automatically adjust and run fine!

[johnung]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Agree to ask support, and also post up some logs on each map using the same fuel and we can check if the logs are idential

I got an answer back from Pro Tuning Freaks. Turns out that the base FlexFuel tunes all scale up the same way. So for example if the CANBus ethanol sensor tells the ECU tune that the fuel entering the engine is E50, then all of the tunes should be the same with that same fuel level.

So that tells me to choose the MultiMap (FlexFuel) tune based on the worst gas that I might be running, if I can't find ethanol. So that might be 93, or 91 or even 91ACN.

My base map choice doesn't matter at all if the ethanol sensor is seeing E30 or E50 or even E85. The tune will automatically adjust to give me the performance of the fuel that the engine is receiving.

Please note that my engine is an N55 EWG which has BootMod3 FlexFuel capabilities. Not all engines have that tune support released yet.

It requires a minimum hardware upgrade of a HPFP (such as a Dorch Stage1) along with a Zeitronix CANBus sensor and Precision Racewerks fuel line upgrade kit. This will easily allow FlexFuel to be run up to at least E50 ethanol in the fuel tank.

For full E85, a Dorch Stage2 along with a Precion Racewerks LPFP upgrade would be necessary.

Hope this helps!

[ZM2]

Has anyone seen dynos, logs, or other data showing if there's a big difference between running E50 on the Stg 2+ E30 OTS map, vs using the MultiMap?

I'm still just doing half 93 & half E85 on the Stg 2+ E30 map and it runs great, so I haven't gotten an ethanol sensor or spent time messing with the MultiMap, yet.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Has anyone seen dynos, logs, or other data showing if there's a big difference between running E50 on the Stg 2+ E30 OTS map, vs using the MultiMap?

I'm still just doing half 93 & half E85 on the Stg 2+ E30 map and it runs great, so I haven't gotten an ethanol sensor or spent time messing with the MultiMap, yet.

Johnung is the first person i have seen on the forums with the flex fuel kit installed and I havent seen any logs yet. Will need to take a look at your logs vs his logs or his logs on multimap vs just on stage 2+ E30 OTS with no flex fuel.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Johnung is the first person i have seen on the forums with the flex fuel kit installed and I havent seen any logs yet. Will need to take a look at your logs vs his logs or his logs on multimap vs just on stage 2+ E30 OTS with no flex fuel.

I have tons of logs that I can share.

johnung if you end up with a few different logs with different Emix's to see how the multimap tune with sensor is adjusting, I'll post up some of my logs and we can see if we can figure anything out!

[johnung]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Johnung is the first person i have seen on the forums with the flex fuel kit installed and I havent seen any logs yet. Will need to take a look at your logs vs his logs or his logs on multimap vs just on stage 2+ E30 OTS with no flex fuel.

I'm still waiting for my local station to get more E85. When I can get E50 in the tank again I'll take the two logs on the exact same fuel tank

[thejeremyman9]

Wait is there a flexfuel map for stage 2+?

Or will you need to flash flexfuel stage 2 map and log that, then flash stage 2+ E30 map and log that? (both with E50 in tank)?

[n55david]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Wait is there a flexfuel map for stage 2+?

Or will you need to flash flexfuel stage 2 map and log that, then flash stage 2+ E30 map and log that? (both with E50 in tank)?

if you do the multimap ita already set up for flex fuel..

if you just use the regular e30 2+ you can convert it to a flex fuel map..

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by Phantom10R

if you just use the regular e30 2+ you can convert it to a flex fuel map..

K, this is what i wasnt sure about, if the 2+ map supported flex fuel or not. That means that in theory, the 2+ map with flex fuel enabled should change based on ethanol content as compared with just flashing the 2+ map by itself.

[n55david]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

K, this is what i wasnt sure about, if the 2+ map supported flex fuel or not. That means that in theory, the 2+ map with flex fuel enabled should change based on ethanol content as compared with just flashing the 2+ map by itself.

yeah I believe so. I'm waiting on the flex fuel kit from ptf to come out so I can try it.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Wait is there a flexfuel map for stage 2+?

Or will you need to flash flexfuel stage 2 map and log that, then flash stage 2+ E30 map and log that? (both with E50 in tank)?

For the logs I will first fill up so that my Zeitronix ethanol gauge is reading about E50. See attached photo showing Zeitronix gauge mounted on my dash. It's normally blocked from my view when I'm driving. I just need to lean forward as in the angle of the photo to glance at the gauge.

Then I can flash:
1) Stage2+ E30 tune and collect logs as I normally would.

2) Any MultiMap tune.
The CANBus will pickup the E50 reading from my Zeitronix fuel sensor and the tune will adjust for the E50 fuel that the engine is receiving. Then I will collect logs.

See attached photo. The Zeitronix ethanol sensor is mounted next to the stock fuel line under the car near the driver's seat. A special Precision Racewerks fuel line runs from the Low Pressure Fuel Pump under the back seat to the Zeitronix sensor.

Note: The stock F30 N55 LPFP maxes out with E60/E70 fuel so I upgraded the LPFP to a Precision Racewerks Stage 2.5. The Stage2 LPFP would have been enough to run E85, but I chose the Stage 2.5 to have extra capacity in case I wish to upgrade from the stock N55 EWG turbo to say a Pure Stage2 turbo.

The PR fuel line uses special connectors at the Zeitronix ethanol sensor. The next section of PR fuel line runs from the sensor up to the upgraded High Pressure Fuel Pump which is under the intake manifold. I chose the Dorch Stage2 HPFP to be able to run full E85 and have extra capacity for a future turbo upgrade. A Dorch Stage1 HPFP would have been fine to run E50 fuel.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

K, this is what i wasnt sure about, if the 2+ map supported flex fuel or not. That means that in theory, the 2+ map with flex fuel enabled should change based on ethanol content as compared with just flashing the 2+ map by itself.

It's kinda confusing. I didn't start to understand until I installed it. The functions of FlexFuel, AntiLag and MultiMap are all mixed together. There are three MultiMaps to choose from Stage1, Stage2 and Stage2+. See attached photo.

Each MultiMap has up to four tunes that can be switched between on the fly using steering wheel controls. See attached photo for MultiMap Stage2+. The Stage2+ only has the E30 and race gas tunes.

For FlexFuel, most of this doesn't matter. If you have a Zeitronix CANBus ethanol sensor installed and you flash one of the MultiMap tunes then it will use FlexFuel to automatically adjust the tune depending on the ethanol percentage read by the sensor.

The MultiMap that is chosen and one of the four possible tunes within it, is just the default tune that you are choosing in case the sensor reads no or low ethanol.

Right now I have flashed the MultiMap Stage2 and have chosen the 91ACN map underneath it. That way if I travel and have to fill up with even low grade gasoline then I won't be running a tune too powerful for the fuel being fed to the engine. Then if I fill up again with ethanol, the FlexFuel tune automatically scales up based on the ethanol content that the Zeitronix sensor tells it.

I hope that this makes sense. It seems to work very well.

[ZM2]

Thanks johnung

It is confusing. For instance, in the MultiMap Stage 2+ notes that you posted above, why does it have the note that adding more E85 than an E30 mix will not result in more power b/c the OEM fuel pump can't flow enough, when the MultiMap requires an upgraded HPFP?!

What's also confusing to me is if MultiMap Stage 2+ map only contains the Stg 2+ E30 map and the Racegas map, how do I instead set the car up to go between the Stg 2+ E30 map and the Stg 2 93 map, in case I'm somewhere where there's no E85 or Racegas around?

An then of course is the other ultimate question is if you run E40, E50, E60, E85, etc., vs E30, is the map actually providing more boost/timing based on the ethanol sensor? Seems like that's the whole point of this effort, but I haven't seen logs confirming that.

I believe I remember detroitm2 messing with all this before going Ecutek, but I'm not sure.

[n55david]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Thanks johnung

It is confusing. For instance, in the MultiMap Stage 2+ notes that you posted above, why does it have the note that adding more E85 than an E30 mix will not result in more power b/c the OEM fuel pump can't flow enough, when the MultiMap requires an upgraded HPFP?!

What's also confusing to me is if MultiMap Stage 2+ map only contains the Stg 2+ E30 map and the Racegas map, how do I instead set the car up to go between the Stg 2+ E30 map and the Stg 2 93 map, in case I'm somewhere where there's no E85 or Racegas around?

An then of course is the other ultimate question is if you run E40, E50, E60, E85, etc., vs E30, is the map actually providing more boost/timing based on the ethanol sensor? Seems like that's the whole point of this effort, but I haven't seen logs confirming that.

I believe I remember detroitm2 messing with all this before going Ecutek, but I'm not sure.

so it will NOT provide more boost. I already know that.
without a tmap sensor swap you can't run more boost really.

I went through this with halim. they gave me a map to try and run but it was garbage. I am NOT able to run the multimap.. it has too many issues. I can only run the single stand alone 2+ map and he wouldn't give me a modified standalone map.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Phantom10R

so it will NOT provide more boost. I already know that.
without a tmap sensor swap you can't run more boost really.

I went through this with halim. they gave me a map to try and run but it was garbage. I am NOT able to run the multimap.. it has too many issues. I can only run the single stand alone 2+ map and he wouldn't give me a modified standalone map.

Good to know. I’m running a 3.5bar TMAP, but that’s really to resolve any stuttering/cuts outs from boost spikes when shifting or tip in, not bc the map targets above 21.6psi.

Will be interesting to hear what johnung finds!

[johnung]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Thanks johnung

It is confusing. For instance, in the MultiMap Stage 2+ notes that you posted above, why does it have the note that adding more E85 than an E30 mix will not result in more power b/c the OEM fuel pump can't flow enough, when the MultiMap requires an upgraded HPFP?!

What's also confusing to me is if MultiMap Stage 2+ map only contains the Stg 2+ E30 map and the Racegas map, how do I instead set the car up to go between the Stg 2+ E30 map and the Stg 2 93 map, in case I'm somewhere where there's no E85 or Racegas around?

An then of course is the other ultimate question is if you run E40, E50, E60, E85, etc., vs E30, is the map actually providing more boost/timing based on the ethanol sensor? Seems like that's the whole point of this effort, but I haven't seen logs confirming that.

I believe I remember detroitm2 messing with all this before going Ecutek, but I'm not sure.

I'll try to answer as best as I can. MultiMap on the N55 EWG has been out for about 5 months but obviously not widely used yet because of the hardware upgrades required. IMO it perfectly fills the gap between maxing out the stock turbo on 93 octane and spending $5k-$6k all in parts and labor on a turbo upgrade.

All of the FlexFuel hardware upgrades perfectly match what I would get anyway for a turbo upgrade, so it makes that less costly to do that in the future. FlexFuel is exactly the solution that I was looking for.

Answers to your questions: (as best as I can)

That comment about "adding more E85 than an E30 mix" is definitely a cut/paste leftover from the Stage2 E30 tune which doesn't require a HPFP upgrade.

Technically I do not believe that MultiMap requires a HPFP upgrade. One could run the Stage2 MultiMap and switch between four gasoline tunes. If I recall correctly 91ACN, 91, 93, & 93AGG. Some of the reason is to say have a daily driving tune and then use the steering wheel buttons/switches to flip over to an aggressive burbles.

The standalone Stage2+ E30 tune requires a HPFP upgrade and typically uses E30-E50. I don't believe that E50 actually provides more power with that tune because it is not a FlexFuel tune that scales up. More than E30 may just make it run a lot cleaner/smoother with less timing adjustments. We'll find out when I'm able to take those two comparison logs: Stage2+ E30 vs FlexFuel both on E50.

To use the FlexFuel feature of the MultiMap tunes requires the installation of the Zeitronix CANBus ethanol sensor (with the Precision Racewerks fuel line kit). Then the percentage of ethanol that you wish to run determines the upgrades to the fuel pump(s).

To run E50 requires a HPFP upgrade to something like a Dorch Stage1. The stock LPFP can handle E50 just fine.

To run E85 requires a HPFP upgrade to a Dorch Stage2 (which also provides extra capacity if you want to later upgrade the turbo). The stock LPFP maxes out around E60/E70 so to run E85 requires a LPFP upgrade to at least something like a Precision Racewerks Stage2. I went for the Stage 2.5 which costs only slightly more and provides extra capacity for a future turbo upgrade.

Until now if you upgraded the fuel pumps to run full E85 there was no BootMod3 Off The Shelf E85 tune. So you were forced to pay roughly $500 for a custom E85 tune. But FlexFuel provides an OTS E85 tune that automatically scales back if for any reason you don't put full E85 in the tank. You aren't trying to flash a lower level tune at a gas station somewhere.

Yes I understand your issue. I did not completely understand BM3's choices for which tunes to place in the MultiMaps to switch between. I would have had more options. They did say that custom tuners can set up any combination of four tunes that they wish to switch between.

Your question is a moot point though if you have installed a Zeitronix sensor and are running a MultiMap tune. In your example you could install the Stage2 93 octane tune as your base map under the Stage2 MultiMap. Then add whatever amount of ethanol to your tank that you wish (within the limits of the HPFP and LPFP installed). The tune will just adjust to whatever fuel that it is given. I suspect that we will find out that FlexFuel on E50 is more powerful than Stage2+ E30 tune on E50.

I'll see what logs that I can collect on various ethanol percentages.

Hope this helps!

[ZM2]

"I suspect that we will find out that FlexFuel on E50 is more powerful than Stage2+ E30 tune on E50."

This will be interesting to find out. Thanks for exploring all this and posting up details!

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Phantom10R

so it will NOT provide more boost. I already know that.
without a tmap sensor swap you can't run more boost really.

I went through this with halim. they gave me a map to try and run but it was garbage. I am NOT able to run the multimap.. it has too many issues. I can only run the single stand alone 2+ map and he wouldn't give me a modified standalone map.

Interesting. I talked to Halim a while back about TMAP sensors and he told me to go ahead and upgrade the sensor in the chargepipe. He wasn't concerned about the TMAP sensor in the intake manifold.

When my car was apart for the HPFP upgrade, I just went ahead and upgraded both from the stock 2.5bar sensor to the 3.5bar sensor (see part number in attached photo) from the 4-cylinder engine that runs higher boost. The VDO/Continental labeled version of the TMAP sensor is only like $66 at FCP Euro. So why not do it?

Note: changing TMAP sensors and HPFP requires going into the BootMod3 configuration screen for whatever tune that you intend to flash and simply choosing the new parts from pull down menus. Very easy just remember to do it before flashing a tune.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Good to know. I’m running a 3.5bar TMAP, but that’s really to resolve any stuttering/cuts outs from boost spikes when shifting or tip in, not bc the map targets above 21.6psi.

Will be interesting to hear what johnung finds!

Yeah, I don't know why more guys don't upgrade their TMAP sensors to 3.5bar to avoid any issues with boost spikes above what the 2.5bar TMAP can handle.

Someone I was reading reminded that bar is a fluid measurement that can vary depending on ambient conditions. I vaguely remember this from HS Physics. So when you hear guys quote that a tune's boost target is Xpsi and the 2.5bar TMAP is Ypsi, it's not always that cut and dry.

When you are playing around with tunes that aren't just very basic it doesn't hurt to upgrade the inexpensive TMAP sensor in the charge pipe so you aren't anywhere near its limit. Just take that variable out of the equation.

I also upgraded the TMAP on the intake manifold because I couldn't think of a good reason not to. And it's a configuration choice right in BootMod3.