[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by G50

I find that quite surprising, having found that finding the perfect spec of 2nd hand BMW is quite a chore!

I've recently been looking at FK8 Civic Type R's (I know, visually not to everyone's taste) since reading the EVO car of the year article where it did very well, and always had a thing for Honda's having had an S2000 and currently own a highly modified EP3 track car, and other than colour there is basically two specs; GT and none GT!

After the frustration/enjoyment of trying to find the best spec BMW in my price range (headlights that actually illuminate the road, pro nav, decent brakes, decent sound system etc etc) half of me was happy that I could concentrate purely on colour and condition, and the other half was a bit disappointed that there was no challenge to find the perfect spec

Interesting to see that one of the Cayman's posted above was in the same price range as an FK8, however for me it would be an only car and I'm not sure it would be practical enough, plus the running costs on 20k miles a year won't be on the same level as a Honda or 330d

That issue is why I've bought as many brand new cars as I have - it's sometimes the only way to get the exact car you want. The problem is you then pay through nose for it in depreciation.

On the plus side for the BMWs is there tends to be a hell of lot more of them to choose from, so you should get most of what you're after. When you start looking at older cars, or Porsche sports cars there tends to be fewer of them around, and finding exactly what you want, if it's at all fussy or specific may take you many months.

There's a lot to be said about a lack of choice!

[moonshine]

ive come across a 2006 Cayman S (3.4l )987.1 six-speed manual (first registered 03-02-2006 so qualifies for lower rate of road tax) with a genuine 25000 miles on it from new and on its second owner... price is strong at £20k, but it has pretty much everything

spec as below....
PORSCHE script across bottom of doors (similar to Cayman R)
Piano black air intakes
Zunnsport grilles (3nr) to front.
Twin circular exhaust tailpipes (similar to Cayman R) Original unit available.
Porsche Certificate of Authenticity states:
• Heated seats
• 19" Carrera Classic wheels
• Porsche crested coloured wheel centres
• Rear wiper
• Porsche Sound Package
• Top tinted windscreen
• Electronic air conditioning
• HomeLink (garage door opener)
• Bi-Xenon lighting system
Always stored inside with cover.
New front discs and pads before going into storage in 2017.
New Michelin PS4S fitted September 2020 approximately 2000 miles ago.
Full service and MoT in September 2020 following period off road in storage for prolonged house build.
• Oil, air and pollen filters replaced.
• Spark plugs and coil packs replaced.
• Front condensers replaced.
• Polyrib belt changed.
• Brake fluid changed.
• Aircon re-gassed
• New high tone & low tone horns fitted.
New Panasonic SPH-230DAB head unit (with Bluetooth) fitted October 2020. Original unit available.
New Bosch starter motor fitted October 2020.

thoughts?

[kzg1969]

looks good!
(but i know nothing about porsches!)

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by moonshine

ive come across a 2006 Cayman S (3.4l )987.1 six-speed manual (first registered 03-02-2006 so qualifies for lower rate of road tax) with a genuine 25000 miles on it from new and on its second owner... price is strong at £20k, but it has pretty much everything

spec as below....
PORSCHE script across bottom of doors (similar to Cayman R)
Piano black air intakes
Zunnsport grilles (3nr) to front.
Twin circular exhaust tailpipes (similar to Cayman R) Original unit available.
Porsche Certificate of Authenticity states:
• Heated seats
• 19" Carrera Classic wheels
• Porsche crested coloured wheel centres
• Rear wiper
• Porsche Sound Package
• Top tinted windscreen
• Electronic air conditioning
• HomeLink (garage door opener)
• Bi-Xenon lighting system
Always stored inside with cover.
New front discs and pads before going into storage in 2017.
New Michelin PS4S fitted September 2020 approximately 2000 miles ago.
Full service and MoT in September 2020 following period off road in storage for prolonged house build.
• Oil, air and pollen filters replaced.
• Spark plugs and coil packs replaced.
• Front condensers replaced.
• Polyrib belt changed.
• Brake fluid changed.
• Aircon re-gassed
• New high tone & low tone horns fitted.
New Panasonic SPH-230DAB head unit (with Bluetooth) fitted October 2020. Original unit available.
New Bosch starter motor fitted October 2020.

thoughts?

Looks very nice indeed and seems a reasonable price too. Only thing at that age is you might need to be wary of some of the engine issues that can affect Porsches of that vintage - paying for a pre-purchase inspection by a recognised specialist could be money well spent!

[Colmsport]

Originally Posted by moonshine

ive come across a 2006 Cayman S (3.4l )987.1 six-speed manual (first registered 03-02-2006 so qualifies for lower rate of road tax) with a genuine 25000 miles on it from new and on its second owner... price is strong at £20k, but it has pretty much everything

spec as below....
PORSCHE script across bottom of doors (similar to Cayman R)
Piano black air intakes
Zunnsport grilles (3nr) to front.
Twin circular exhaust tailpipes (similar to Cayman R) Original unit available.
Porsche Certificate of Authenticity states:
• Heated seats
• 19" Carrera Classic wheels
• Porsche crested coloured wheel centres
• Rear wiper
• Porsche Sound Package
• Top tinted windscreen
• Electronic air conditioning
• HomeLink (garage door opener)
• Bi-Xenon lighting system
Always stored inside with cover.
New front discs and pads before going into storage in 2017.
New Michelin PS4S fitted September 2020 approximately 2000 miles ago.
Full service and MoT in September 2020 following period off road in storage for prolonged house build.
• Oil, air and pollen filters replaced.
• Spark plugs and coil packs replaced.
• Front condensers replaced.
• Polyrib belt changed.
• Brake fluid changed.
• Aircon re-gassed
• New high tone & low tone horns fitted.
New Panasonic SPH-230DAB head unit (with Bluetooth) fitted October 2020. Original unit available.
New Bosch starter motor fitted October 2020.

thoughts?

Wouldn’t want to p155 on your bonfire but worthwhile doing a bit of research on the gen 1 Cayman / Boxster 3.4 issues, namely Borescoring...

I’ve had a 987 Boxster 3.2 for 8 years & spend a fair bit of time on the Porsche forums. Borescore on the 3.4 lump is quite a common occurrence & will result in an engine rebuild at a cost of £8k+. You’re better off looking for a gen 2, from 2009, where the engine was redesigned & I believe as a result do not suffer from bore scoring. Furthermore, the gen 2 engines did away with the IMS (intermediate shaft bearing) problem, which was also a problem on the water cooled flat 6 engines since about 1999 when Porsche changed the bearing to a single row bearing. If one of theses fail, then engine is knackered as sends bits of bearing throughout the engine.

Borescore can happen at any mileage, seen cars with less that 15k miles on them needing a rebuild. Tell tale signs are an appetite for oil & a loud ticking / knocking noise when running. If you’re keen on the car, I would suggest get an independent Porsche inspection & pay extra for a bore scope which will show any signs of issues.

[moonshine]

^
Thanks. that is exactly the comments I am looking for.
I was aware of the borescoring issue and have a local porsche specialist who is could get to inspect, but I may have bigger issues like persuading Mrs

[isleaiw1]

The car looks fab. Sure it would be great. However, its done 25k in 15 years, but 2k in 6 months? I'm not sure I would buy a car that has averaged such a low mileage, its really not good for them...

Is your intention to buy and hold as a classic or use for a couple of years with a reasonable mileage and sell? If latter I think that the low mileage example at a fairly high price could lose a significant amount. If the former it could be ideal...

[moonshine]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

The car looks fab. Sure it would be great. However, its done 25k in 15 years, but 2k in 6 months? I'm not sure I would buy a car that has averaged such a low mileage, its really not good for them...

Is your intention to buy and hold as a classic or use for a couple of years with a reasonable mileage and sell? If latter I think that the low mileage example at a fairly high price could lose a significant amount. If the former it could be ideal...

I would prefer it would be for daily use with the intention to put some miles on it - I can't see it dropping below £15k in value for quite some time - so could be (relatively) cheap motoring (assuming no major bills) , but i'm encountering significant resistance from Mrs at the moment - as my company pays for my car at the moment and they have an age / CO2 limit, and this falls outwith this - so it would need to be a +1 rather than a replacement, or I would need to surrender my car allowance, and that would mean 3 cars and a camper van in a household of 2..... (assuming an inspection was ok,) heart says head says

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Colmsport

Wouldn’t want to p155 on your bonfire but worthwhile doing a bit of research on the gen 1 Cayman / Boxster 3.4 issues, namely Borescoring...

I’ve had a 987 Boxster 3.2 for 8 years & spend a fair bit of time on the Porsche forums. Borescore on the 3.4 lump is quite a common occurrence & will result in an engine rebuild at a cost of £8k+. You’re better off looking for a gen 2, from 2009, where the engine was redesigned & I believe as a result do not suffer from bore scoring. Furthermore, the gen 2 engines did away with the IMS (intermediate shaft bearing) problem, which was also a problem on the water cooled flat 6 engines since about 1999 when Porsche changed the bearing to a single row bearing. If one of theses fail, then engine is knackered as sends bits of bearing throughout the engine.

Borescore can happen at any mileage, seen cars with less that 15k miles on them needing a rebuild. Tell tale signs are an appetite for oil & a loud ticking / knocking noise when running. If you’re keen on the car, I would suggest get an independent Porsche inspection & pay extra for a bore scope which will show any signs of issues.

Exactly the sort of issues I had in mind with my post!

As you say, you're safer with a Generation 2 987 or a 981 but if a specialist checked this one and said it's ok then in the OP's position I could be tempted. However, just because it's ok today doesn't mean it can't develop problems in the near future so for me a warranty from a reputable provider would be a must. Obviously you accept you're going to have higher maintenance costs with a 15 year old Porsche - hopefully mitigated by minimal depreciation - but in my book a replacement engine isn't routine maintenance and if it happened it wouldn't be cheap on a Cayman S!

I daresay these engine problems are less common than some of the publicity would have you believe - I suspect the majority of cars are fine and it just tends to be the minority that go wrong that you hear about. Nevertheless, it's a known problem and very expensive to fix so, like I say, I wouldn't run one of these without a warranty.

[moonshine]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Exactly the sort of issues I had in mind with my post!

As you say, you're safer with a Generation 2 987 or a 981 but if a specialist checked this one and said it's ok then in the OP's position I could be tempted. However, just because it's ok today doesn't mean it can't develop problems in the near future so for me a warranty from a reputable provider would be a must. Obviously you accept you're going to have higher maintenance costs with a 15 year old Porsche - hopefully mitigated by minimal depreciation - but in my book a replacement engine isn't routine maintenance and if it happened it wouldn't be cheap on a Cayman S!

I daresay these engine problems are less common than some of the publicity would have you believe - I suspect the majority of cars are fine and it just tends to be the minority that go wrong that you hear about. Nevertheless, it's a known problem and very expensive to fix so, like I say, I wouldn't run one of these without a warranty.

It's a private sale, so there is no warranty... One would need to be sourced independently (if available)

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by moonshine

but i'm encountering significant resistance from Mrs at the moment - as my company pays for my car at the moment and they have an age / CO2 limit, and this falls outwith this - so it would need to be a +1 rather than a replacement, or I would need to surrender my car allowance, and that would mean 3 cars and a camper van in a household of 2..... (assuming an inspection was ok,) heart says head says

Braver man than me to go ahead without sign off from the other half. However, keep your car, for the allowance, keep the camper, obvs, and the Mrs can drive the Porsche....

[moonshine]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Braver man than me to go ahead without sign off from the other half. However, keep your car, for the allowance, keep the camper, obvs, and the Mrs can drive the Porsche....

The boss has a F55 Mini Cooper S but due to chemo induced nerve damage and deafness, she struggles to drive a manual now as she can't feel the clutch pedal bite point and can't hear the engine revs.... So for her, an Auto is a must, so it would be for me only....

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by moonshine

It's a private sale, so there is no warranty... One would need to be sourced independently (if available)

I assumed it was a private sale but I think there will be reputable warranty companies that will cover the car, especially if it's had a check from a recognised Porsche specialist prior to you buying it. Probably won't be cheap but for me the piece of mind would be worth it!

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by moonshine

The boss has a F55 Mini Cooper S but due to chemo induced nerve damage and deafness, she struggles to drive a manual now as she can't feel the clutch pedal bite point and can't hear the engine revs.... So for her, an Auto is a must, so it would be for me only....

sorry to hear that, just shows there are more important things than cars.

Mini Convertible JCW auto then - roof down, good fun and both of you can use it....

(you will see that the purism of a Porsche has never been my thing!)

[moonshine]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

sorry to hear that, just shows there are more important things than cars.

Mini Convertible JCW auto then - roof down, good fun and both of you can use it....

(you will see that the purism of a Porsche has never been my thing!)

Thanks.
Yip, definitely more important things
She is in an 2019 Auto MCS and likes it... so she is happy...
I just want something more fun than the Merc C250d estate (nice as it is!!), it is just a bit dull

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by moonshine

Thanks.
Yip, definitely more important things
She is in an 2019 Auto MCS and likes it... so she is happy...
I just want something more fun than the Merc C250d estate (nice as it is!!), it is just a bit dull

Everything is more fun than the Merc....!

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by moonshine

^
Thanks. that is exactly the comments I am looking for.
I was aware of the borescoring issue and have a local porsche specialist who is could get to inspect, but I may have bigger issues like persuading Mrs

Having owned the model of Cayman you are looking at, and run it for 5 years from new, I would say that they are basically a fun car, well built, but that bills start to ramp up as they get older and wear and age comes in to play... and I am not sure that I (personally) would have liked to have run mine any longer than I did...

There was nothing wrong with it, but I had started to get bigger bills (coil packs, clutch etc)..

But this is the case with most cars, right...

The bore scoring thing... I never encountered it in my ownership... but I do know somebody who did, and, yes, it was a costly do... You could buy a car that is OK and then have it happen to you, it is not always an inherited thing...

It comes down to attitude to risk and reward... Certainly, if it were me, then I would (as a minimum) have a thorough independent specialist report done on the car... including a bore inspection and a read out from the ECU (checking for over revs)... and have it up on a ramp looking at all the suspension/barking gubbins and also the condition of all the cooling system in the nose...

Many of these specialists can also advise what a sensible annual maintenance budget would be...

As for the car holding its value, well, yes, but factor in the annual maintenance on top of running costs...

Another point, the infotainment etc on the Porsches of that age were a little behind others so check it will do what you want (phone support was an extra and might not now support modern phones, for instance).. Don't think they had DAB then, either... but did I see this one has a non-original unit now in it..?

Just a few thoughts...

[sensible]

About a month ago, my neighbour traded in his M3 for a 2016 Porsche Caymen GT4.

He said that he was going to have to spend a couple of grand on tyres and brakes so it was the right time for him to do it.

It really does look very smart, all black with yellow calipers.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Having owned the model of Cayman you are looking at, and run it for 5 years from new, I would say that they are basically a fun car, well built, but that bills start to ramp up as they get older and wear and age comes in to play... and I am not sure that I (personally) would have liked to have run mine any longer than I did...

Having also run a similar age Boxster, and started paying some of the larger bills I would completely concur. Mine had had a lot of money spent on it by a previous owner, but I ended up still spending lots more. I loved driving it, but it was the wrong car for me (I needed something more suitable for significant track use), and it was always going to need more money spent on it.

As a weekend car though for light use, it may still be a good option.

I think lots of weekend toy propositions end up like this... everyone wants an E46 M3 just now too, but they're all going to need lots spent on them too. It's just that Porche and M car parts all come with an added tax!

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Having also run a similar age Boxster, and started paying some of the larger bills I would completely concur. Mine had had a lot of money spent on it by a previous owner, but I ended up still spending lots more. I loved driving it, but it was the wrong car for me (I needed something more suitable for significant track use), and it was always going to need more money spent on it.

As a weekend car though for light use, it may still be a good option.

I think lots of weekend toy propositions end up like this... everyone wants an E46 M3 just now too, but they're all going to need lots spent on them too. It's just that Porche and M car parts all come with an added tax!

Interesting thoughts! I considered looking at a second-hand Cayman (a 981 S) to replace my F31 335d but unfortunately that didn't work for us as a combination given Mrs JNW1 had insisted on a 3-door Mini rather than a Clubman or Countryman (so I did the decent thing and went G21 to make sure we had at least one practical car in the household!).

However, I'm fortunate in having a decent Porsche independent relatively close by and when I looked at their servicing prices they actually seemed quite reasonable - the big service on a 981 S is less than £400 and even though that increases to just over £500 if spark plugs are required that still doesn't feel especially expensive compared to an M-car or even a 340i. As you say, I suppose the costs really start to escalate when you need things like a new clutch but I guess you budget for that and go in with your eyes open?

Having said all of that I've got friends who had a Boxster and, even though they used the aforementioned independent for servicing, in the end they got rid of it because it was proving expensive to run. So there's little doubt they're great cars but the message from people who've had them seems to be you need to be prepared to pay for your pleasure!

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Having also run a similar age Boxster, and started paying some of the larger bills I would completely concur. Mine had had a lot of money spent on it by a previous owner, but I ended up still spending lots more. I loved driving it, but it was the wrong car for me (I needed something more suitable for significant track use), and it was always going to need more money spent on it.

As a weekend car though for light use, it may still be a good option.

I think lots of weekend toy propositions end up like this... everyone wants an E46 M3 just now too, but they're all going to need lots spent on them too. It's just that Porche and M car parts all come with an added tax!

Definitely agree with you about the Boxster and Cayman and where they sit in the scheme of things... I would describe them as nice sport cars for the public highway... you can pop them around a track, and to be sure at least your brakes etc will still work after, but if you are seeking a track day car, you end up elsewhere...

I had a 2004 (new) Boxster S before the Cayman and, in many ways, I thought is was a better sports car for nice days out than the Cayman... Mine was on what was then called "sports chassis" which was a lower set of springs etc and it looked well and went lovely... nice noise from the engine... enough go to be fun but not enough to be silly on the public highways...

Interestingly just been in a BMW dealer (looking at M135i's...)... There was a new M3 in there... and, you know, it just was "meh"... sure, powerful etc etc but for what purpose...?

Best BMW in there was a 1970's 2500 saloon... white with dark blue velour interior... so stylish and sharp... immaculate (concours condition likely) and beautiful...

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Interesting thoughts! I considered looking at a second-hand Cayman (a 981 S) to replace my F31 335d but unfortunately that didn't work for us as a combination given Mrs JNW1 had insisted on a 3-door Mini rather than a Clubman or Countryman (so I did the decent thing and went G21 to make sure we had at least one practical car in the household!).

However, I'm fortunate in having a decent Porsche independent relatively close by and when I looked at their servicing prices they actually seemed quite reasonable - the big service on a 981 S is less than £400 and even though that increases to just over £500 if spark plugs are required that still doesn't feel especially expensive compared to an M-car or even a 340i. As you say, I suppose the costs really start to escalate when you need things like a new clutch but I guess you budget for that and go in with your eyes open?

Having said all of that I've got friends who had a Boxster and, even though they used the aforementioned independent for servicing, in the end they got rid of it because it was proving expensive to run. So there's little doubt they're great cars but the message from people who've had them seems to be you need to be prepared to pay for your pleasure!

I found routine servicing of Porsches not too bad even at main dealers... even the GT3 was reasonable... But it's when you start having to things like have the cooling system at the front replaced because, over time, the original one has deteriorated... or have gearboxes out for rebuilds etc... All time-consuming stuff with parts that, whist not the silly prices of the exotica, are still hefty enough (all cars are like this, really) and if you do not keep on top of things the bills are likely to escalate and you risk being unable to sell the car...

I do not think any of this is particular to Porsche.. It's a "running an older car" thing... Especially an older performance car... Imagine trying to run something like a Delta Integrale or a 00's Maserati in older age... (to pick two random examples)...

My dad once said to me that buying an older car for £15k, that was originally £85k new, does not come with the same running costs of a car that you could buy new for your £15k... you are still running a £85k sportscar, with bills to match..

I think my Cayman was something like £56k new, so the equivalent of about £85k now...