[JD6]

Originally Posted by Wills2

I'm putting the how will we cope with the charging of EVs in the same camp as

1. Brexit - easy, er no.....
2. Universal credit - easy, er no....
3. Charging millions of EVs - easy, er no....

Everything looks easy on paper or on a conference call, nothing on this scale is ever is easy there will be more delays than you can shake a stick at.

I fully accept that there are major obstacles to be overcome in providing a network of charging points which can charge millions of cars. But it is quite different from your other two examples which are being carried out by civil servants and politicians.

The move towards charging EVs will be driven by competition in the private sector, and that moves at a very different pace. Combine that with the fact that we are already providing some EV charging today, which means we know how to do this, unlike Brexit!

In terms of electricity supply, we are in an odd situation where UK power prices currently go negative at times of substantial oversupply and this will happen with increasing frequency as more wind power arrives, as happens in Germany. So the incentive to provide commercial battery storage becomes stronger - you can actually get paid to charge your batteries and then paid again to sell the power at peak times.

Offshore wind is getting cheaper by the year as the technology matures and we are able to use larger turbines. It is at the point of becoming subsidy-free, which takes away a major restriction.

We have (from memory) 9 electricity interconnectors in the pipeline with Europe as well as 4 operating today. Where the incentive is large enough, business will find a way of rapidly satisfying demand.

[aloo6]

Originally Posted by Jimbob335DX

My misses employer, has an electric charging point in the car park, seems pretty well set up. I suppose it depends on the mind set of the employer/company and the people.

We have one electric charging space in my place, which is also a disabled space. The disabled guy with the electric phev has now left.

There's a dude with a gte weighing up the options of cutting off a limb.

[gangzoom]

Ive now done 40K in EVs since selling my old 335i in March 2017. We've just come back from a 690 mile family holiday in France with the EV, absolutely no issues at all and for the total cost of £4.05 in fuel. I'm now actually driving more than ever, why wouldn't you when fuel costs are 3p per mile when charging at home??

I get people are 'worried' about grand scale issues like power generation/no home charging, but right now if you have a driveway and can afford the asking price EVs really are no brainers, especially as choice/range is increasingly and prices come down.

Ultimatly its not government legislation which will drive EV sales but consumer chocie. Tesla sold more cars than BMW in the US last month, and with Model 3 production still ramping up sales are only going one way.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/03...charts-graphs/

BMW will HAVE TOO build a Model 3 EV rival ASAP, otherwise their sales in the US are going to pummit and I cannot wait to see what they come up with.

BMW are actually will positioned to launch a decent EV, the i range is a good base. Personally I cannot wait to see what the EV market will be like in 2020, which when we're looking to replace my wifes car with an EV as well.

Till than I've already bought my last petrol car, I have found memories of my old 335i and as far as combustion cars go it was up there with the best of them, but these days I have 0 interest in anything that doesn't need pluging.

[TodmordenLad]

Consumer demand and manufacturers' offerings will drive the market. F**k all initiative will originate from those useless c**ts in Westminster

[ByTheSea]

A major obstacle now for purely electric vehicles is the ability to instantly refresh the power. For example, right now if I'm on a long journey and find that 50 miles from my destination I'm low on fuel I pull into the next fuel stop and fill up and away. Electric only vehicle I wait around for several hours to refresh the "fuel". So either hybrids are the only game or greatly improved electric technology.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by ByTheSea

A major obstacle now for purely electric vehicles is the ability to instantly refresh the power. For example, right now if I'm on a long journey and find that 50 miles from my destination I'm low on fuel I pull into the next fuel stop and fill up and away. Electric only vehicle I wait around for several hours to refresh the "fuel". So either hybrids are the only game or greatly improved electric technology.

That's true if you use a standard 13 amp mains socket, but these days fast chargers are much higher current and could give you 50 miles of range in (off the top of my head) 10-20 mins.

[thescouselander]

Originally Posted by JD6

That's true if you use a standard 13 amp mains socket, but these days fast chargers are much higher current and could give you 50 miles of range in (off the top of my head) 10-20 mins.

The thing that puts me off is that every time I seem to see a fast charger at a motorway service station it seems to be out of action. There's just not enough charges at the moment and they appear to be unreliable.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by thescouselander

The thing that puts me off is that every time I seem to see a fast charger at a motorway service station it seems to be out of action. There's just not enough charges at the moment and they appear to be unreliable.

We certainly have a long way to go before EVs come close to the practicality of diesel/petrol for longer trips. It would also annoy me that the likes of Ecotricity now charge 30p / kWh at their fast chargers, which is around the same price per mile as a diesel car like a 320d, and around 5 times the wholesale price of electricity, which is taking the piss in my view.

If the government are serious about wanting EVs to take over, they need to facilitate much cheaper charging in my view, to offset the inconvenience and higher initial purchase cost.

[JustChris]

Is that correct, home and charging abroad has cost you £4 for 790 miles?!

My word that's exceptional. Are there subscription charges involved there too...seems a bit too good that?

[JD6]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Is that correct, home and charging abroad has cost you £4 for 790 miles?!

My word that's exceptional. Are there subscription charges involved there too...seems a bit too good that?

That cost will include most of the charging free at Tesla Superchargers which was offered at the time the car was bought.

Tesla no longer offer that with new cars - you now get 400 kWh free per year which translates to about 1000 miles free, or about £60 a year free at home electricity prices

[Zippee]

Originally Posted by JD6

We certainly have a long way to go before EVs come close to the practicality of diesel/petrol for longer trips. It would also annoy me that the likes of Ecotricity now charge 30p / kWh at their fast chargers, which is around the same price per mile as a diesel car like a 320d, and around 5 times the wholesale price of electricity, which is taking the piss in my view.

If the government are serious about wanting EVs to take over, they need to facilitate much cheaper charging in my view, to offset the inconvenience and higher initial purchase cost.

And herein lies the problem. Once demand increases, you can bet the power providers will increase charges for electricity too. Even for those that dont use an EV. Yep, the govn't may well incentivise initially (umm like they did with diesel) but unless the electricity industry is vastly changed and highly regulated, they will supply charge for the demand. Yep, at the moment, EV's seem cheap to run at 3p a mile or whatever but my question is still how is the power infrastructure going to adapt so quickly? What about disposal of power packs?

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by JD6

I fully accept that there are major obstacles to be overcome in providing a network of charging points which can charge millions of cars. But it is quite different from your other two examples which are being carried out by civil servants and politicians.

The move towards charging EVs will be driven by competition in the private sector, and that moves at a very different pace. Combine that with the fact that we are already providing some EV charging today, which means we know how to do this, unlike Brexit!

In terms of electricity supply, we are in an odd situation where UK power prices currently go negative at times of substantial oversupply and this will happen with increasing frequency as more wind power arrives, as happens in Germany. So the incentive to provide commercial battery storage becomes stronger - you can actually get paid to charge your batteries and then paid again to sell the power at peak times.

Offshore wind is getting cheaper by the year as the technology matures and we are able to use larger turbines. It is at the point of becoming subsidy-free, which takes away a major restriction.

We have (from memory) 9 electricity interconnectors in the pipeline with Europe as well as 4 operating today. Where the incentive is large enough, business will find a way of rapidly satisfying demand.

No it's not, it's a perfect example of how people skim across the surface of a massive and complex project, cherry pick a few non issues point to them and then surmise that it's not going to be an issue.

Your post above is riddled with it, this will happen then that will happen, tech will mature, we'll incentivise and they'll rapidly (note the rapidly) find a way, find a way? So in other words we don't have solution but don't worry it'll happen.....won't it?

I'm not against EVs but we don't have answer yet for how it will all work.

[Zippee]

Wills, youve highlighted a very important point. We have introduced a deadline in the very near future for something to happen that hasn't been thoroughly planned and thought through. Dare I say its a political appeasement to appear to be proactive?

In 14 years time, most wont remember that May 'championed' this but it might give her a few valuable brownie points right now. She wont give a fuck if it cant be implemented or how it is done (Hmm, a bit like Cameron with Brexit...).

I'm all for having a 'Dictator for life' in power as they will have to account for long term shit and not just the Friday vote in the house.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by Zippee

And herein lies the problem. Once demand increases, you can bet the power providers will increase charges for electricity too. Even for those that dont use an EV. Yep, the govn't may well incentivise initially (umm like they did with diesel) but unless the electricity industry is vastly changed and highly regulated, they will supply charge for the demand. Yep, at the moment, EV's seem cheap to run at 3p a mile or whatever but my question is still how is the power infrastructure going to adapt so quickly? What about disposal of power packs?

I agree that once EVs take hold, the government will want to find a way to replace the £28bn a year it currently gets from fuel duty, so some new form of taxation will have to be brought in. As the price of EVs drop and they become more mainstream, increased taxes will offset the price drop. They will never be cheap motoring.

It is less clear to me what happens to the price of electricity if renewables continue along their current path.

How they deal with battery pack disposal is also less clear. As the pack capacity drops below say 70% with age, perhaps the old one will be taken out of a car and used as grid storage, where energy density matters less. Ultimately I expect a fair proportion can be recycled into new batteries.

[Zippee]

I think these are the questions people should be asking and scrutinising the policies leading up to it. Something on this scale is almost evolutionary and not revolutionary over night stuff. Its akin to building an entire rail network from scratch. That certainly didn't happen a couple of years after The Rocket popped down a couple of miles of rickety track. It took a darn sight longer than 14 years even with the vast might of the Industrial Revolution driving it.

I'm wondering how quickly the oil companies will react to the rug pretty much being pulled from under them? Will this mean that Saudi will be reduced to camel farming again? (one advantage I guess )

[JD6]

Originally Posted by Wills2

No it's not, it's a perfect example of how people skim across the surface of a massive and complex project, cherry pick a few non issues point to them and then surmise that it's not going to be an issue.

Your post above is riddled with it, this will happen then that will happen, tech will mature, we'll incentivise and they'll rapidly (note the rapidly) find a way, find a way? So in other words we don't have solution but don't worry it'll happen.....won't it?

I'm not against EVs but we don't have answer yet for how it will all work.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, which is illustrated by the comparisons you make with Brexit and Universal Credit in the post I was replying to. If you can't see the distinction between government projects and private sector ones, you're out of your depth.

It is true that we don't have all of the answers, and we can't be sure that sufficient infrastructure will be in place by 2032, but the direction of travel is clear. There are a lot of competing technologies which are coming in. Given the commercial incentives, between them it looks likely that this can be solved.

[Zippee]

Originally Posted by JD6

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, which is illustrated by the comparisons you make with Brexit and Universal Credit in the post I was replying to. If you can't see the distinction between government projects and private sector ones, you're out of your depth.

It is true that we don't have all of the answers, and we can't be sure that sufficient infrastructure will be in place by 2032, but the direction of travel is clear. There are a lot of competing technologies which are coming in. Given the commercial incentives, between them it looks likely that this can be solved.

So maybe a 'from 2032' as opposed to a 'by 2032' could be a more workable and practical realisation?

Fail to plan, plan to fail.

[Mrklaw]

Originally Posted by JD6

That's true if you use a standard 13 amp mains socket, but these days fast chargers are much higher current and could give you 50 miles of range in (off the top of my head) 10-20 mins.

That’s still a lot slower than petrol pumps. Those already get congested at rush hour or on motorway services. How bad will it be if people are needing to leave their car at a ‘pump’ for 20 mins?

Just waiting for my new car in December so in 3-4 years when it’s time to change I hope there are more EV options. Definitely something I’d do for one of our cars, and I’d be happy to replace both if longer range charging improves

[JustChris]

Electricity is a certain price now. As soon as demand ramps up when cars all depend upon it, good old economics and demand a supply will kick in. Plus the GvT will invent a new tax...could they afford not to need it from fuel duty levies, no chance.

Real term costs will probably come out shocking close. The UK and EU will 'lead the way' we will get ripped off.

Meanwhile polar ice caps will continue to melt at exactly the same rate as huge nation like Russia, China perhaps even USA will adopt this far slower than us.

[Zippee]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Electricity is a certain price now. As soon as demand ramps up when cars all depend upon it, good old economics and demand a supply will kick in. Plus the GvT will invent a new tax...could they afford not to need it from fuel duty levies, no chance.

Real term costs will probably come out shocking close. The UK and EU will 'lead the way' we will get ripped off.

Meanwhile polar ice caps will continue to melt at exactly the same rate as huge nation like Russia, China perhaps even USA will adopt this far slower than us.

That is as succinct and realistic as anyone has put it!

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by ByTheSea

A major obstacle now for purely electric vehicles is the ability to instantly refresh the power. For example, right now if I'm on a long journey and find that 50 miles from my destination I'm low on fuel I pull into the next fuel stop and fill up and away. Electric only vehicle I wait around for several hours to refresh the "fuel".

The main difference is with an EV and home charging you can charge up at home overnight before any long trip. I normally only every charge up to 80% at home which equals about 150 miles of range with no worry about how inefficiently I drive.

For a long distance trip like we did to France recently, I charged up to 100%, used 'Eco' mode. I planned stops every 2hr - 2.30hrs of driving, which is about the limit our 2.5 year old toddler can manage in the car. This coupled with the number of Tesla Superchargers available meant the trip was really painless.

The key though was the Tesla SuperCharger network, the chargers add about 80% charge in 35-40 minutes of charging, which actually meant the car was nearly always charged to nearly 100% before we were ready to leave the service station......as most parents will tell you it's the toddler that dictates how long you spend some where!!

Infact looking at the total trip summary of the holiday it was actually 889 miles covered in total not 690 miles. It really was painless, and we're planning Lake Como next year, its not the car/charging am worried about its how the passengers will take to such a trip,

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Is that correct, home and charging abroad has cost you £4 for 790 miles?!

My word that's exceptional. Are there subscription charges involved there too...seems a bit too good that?

Just checked the trip was actually 890 miles in total!!! - The £4 was the initial 'charge' to 100% when I did at home before setting off, rest of the trip was all 'free' electricity, roughly 230kWh worth.

Our car has 'free for life' usage at Tesla Superchargers regardless of usage/age. Not a single £0 to pay for as long as I own the car. 15K now covered in 13 months, most charging is done at home at a cost of 3p per mile but on holidays I almost always use Tesla Superchargers - After all it is free. The car is a longterm keeper, will ultimately become the family 'hack', looking forwards even when we get an EV with more range this is the car we will use on long trips.....I don't mind stopping every 2-2.5hrs for free fuel versus driving non stop for 5 hours .

Free fuel for life of the car, £0 VED regardless of what the government decides in future, the longer we own the car and the more we drive the 'cheaper' it becomes .