[rajahfl]

Originally Posted by LagunaSecaBlue

Any idea what the "new" MPPK numbers would be (before and after Dinan)? I have 2014 with the "new" MPPK (also came with the car as in your situation) and looking to stack something on top...

To answer LagunaSecaBlue's question, I just had some baseline Dynojet measurements taken of my 2014 F30 335i today at a reputable BMW tuner in Los Angeles. My car came from the factory with MPPK and MPE, namely that these parts are included on my car's window sticker. Its production date is mid-2014 so it has the electronic wastegate.

The average horsepower and torque figures of three Dynojet runs AT THE WHEELS are 303-hp and 321-lb/ft.

If you use Steve Dinan's hp (12%) and torque (8%) estimates for drivetrain loss, then crank horsepower would be 336-hp and 345-lb/ft.

In a few weeks I will get Dinantronics Stage 1 installed and then have another set of measurements taken at the same facility. I will post the results and the charts when I have them.

[The Nerd]

Originally Posted by rajahfl

To answer LagunaSecaBlue's question, I just had some baseline Dynojet measurements taken of my 2014 F30 335i today at a reputable BMW tuner in Los Angeles. My car came from the factory with MPPK and MPE, namely that these parts are included on my car's window sticker. Its production date is mid-2014 so it has the electronic wastegate.

The average horsepower and torque figures of three Dynojet runs AT THE WHEELS are 303-hp and 321-lb/ft.

If you use Steve Dinan's hp (12%) and torque (8%) estimates for drivetrain loss, then crank horsepower would be 336-hp and 345-lb/ft.

In a few weeks I will get Dinantronics Stage 1 installed and then have another set of measurements taken at the same facility. I will post the results and the charts when I have them.

Thanks for sharing!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

WHP to crank horsepower is meaningless since no one really know what the actual drive train loss is. Want a bigger crank number push the loss factor up a point or two.

Want a bigger WHP number go from CF:SAE to CF:STD measurement & or change the smoothing curve number.

Most DynoJet charts are posted with CF:STD & Smoothing @ 5 to get its best numbers.

Key on any dyno is the baseline to modified delta & of 26whp is not very good for the money spent.

Agree the Mustang is more conservative than the DynoJet but they do not measure the same way. Personally I would use DynoJet numbers for bragging rights & the Mustang for tuning.

[bobbydigital]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

WHP to crank horsepower is meaningless since no one really know what the actual drive train loss is. Want a bigger crank number push the loss factor up a point or two.

Want a bigger WHP number go from CF:SAE to CF:STD measurement & or change the smoothing curve number.

Most DynoJet charts are posted with CF:STD & Smoothing @ 5 to get its best numbers.

Key on any dyno is the baseline to modified delta & of 26whp is not very good for the money spent.

Agree the Mustang is more conservative than the DynoJet but they do not measure the same way. Personally I would use DynoJet numbers for bragging rights & the Mustang for tuning.

But if everyone uses the same drivetrain loss in their calculations, does it matter what the actual loss is? The numbers won't be exact but relative changes can be derived.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Who is everyone?

When you are looking for changes for an added part or tune you always use the exact same machine your baseline was run on since there are variables machine to machine even in the same manufactures line. DynoJet is the most consistent in this regard.

Only player that I am aware of advertising Crank power is Dinan the rest use WHP. Most of the drivetrain loss numbers are made up by the guys posting to forums & can go from 8% to 20%. Bigger is better.

Also +15% of a Mustang number will not give you the same answer as +15% of a DynoJet number since the base Mustang number will be lower.

Even Dinan says the loss factor is a variable. My Cobra has a much lower loss rate than my 435.

[The Nerd]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

Who is everyone?

When you are looking for changes for an added part or tune you always use the exact same machine your baseline was run on since there are variables machine to machine even in the same manufactures line. DynoJet is the most consistent in this regard.

Only player that I am aware of advertising Crank power is Dinan the rest use WHP. Most of the drivetrain loss numbers are made up by the guys posting to forums & can go from 8% to 20%. Bigger is better.

Also +15% of a Mustang number will not give you the same answer as +15% of a DynoJet number since the base Mustang number will be lower.

Even Dinan says the loss factor is a variable. My Cobra has a much lower loss rate than my 435.

Perhaps an over simplified way of looking at it....but it seems fair that 12% is an accurate drivetrain HP loss on a RWD f30 using a Dynojet....and, maybe 15% for a Mustang or Superflo dyno? Again, there are a lot more factors involved (and every machine is different).....but, when every f30 that dynos stock reads between 277-280whp on a Dynojet, I'd say we do indeed have somewhat of an accurate base to go by.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Its not an issue of the base in WHP. As I said the DynoJet provides high numbers but its pretty consistent across machines. If its an accurate number is not proven. Maybe the Mustang is the accurate number or maybe XYZ is more accurate.

Its not an accident that the vendors use the DynoJet since it will always turn in the highest number.

BTW the difference between the Mustang & DynoJet has nothing to do with a loss factor. The two machines operate on a completely different measuring system. If you are interested the info on how they work is available on the net.

When I was beta testing the IS patch for the JB4 Terry in CA said my DynoJet baseline in NC would be around 315WHP. It was 319WHP which was good enough for testing.

So as long as you stay on the same dyno the WHP number will be pretty stable about how much, in WHP, something adds to the engine.

A Mustang will show the same engine across the board at lower numbers. So you can't run a baseline on a Mustang the test your new add-on with a DynoJet. The delta will be wrong. But the same engine base lined on both machines then run with the add-ons on both will create different numbers but both numbers will be correct.

The numbers have no meaning in themselves other than creating a baseline & a Delta for tuning. You can't then run a 15% factor for one machine & 12% for the other because you have no way of knowing what the % should be unless you have an engine dyno crank number to compare the chassis dyno too. Going backwards from WHP to CHP is just making a WAG.

The numbers are a big deal with vendors because its easy to manipulate them for the best result in the add. There were two going at it a few years back & they were playing with smoothing & base methods SAE vs. STD. Want a free 4/5 WHP use STD instead of SAE. Want your graph to look good use smoothing 5 instead of 1.

Bottom line is an engine dyno will produce the best numbers if run properly, (lots of variables to play with) but are subject to cheating.

I found the best way to determine who's equipment is better is watch or better yet participate in 1/2 mile Airport Runs & 1/4 mile drags.

[FC4]

Drivetrain loss percentage discussions are always LOL.

[613Bimmer]

Originally Posted by FC4

Drivetrain loss percentage discussions are always LOL.

+1. I've given up on bragging about hp, all that matters to me is how my butt dyno feels. I don't feel a need to prove myself to anyone because there simply isn't an end-all be-all way of measuring power and, also, I really couldn't care less about how much hp X tune gives compared to Y tune. I still do get the motivation to see how much horsepower you can make, it's just not my idea of having fun with a car. That still doesn't mean that it isn't ok to dyno your car, on the contrary. There'll always be a debate on how to get the right numbers, etc. which is what turned off the hp-crazy part of my mind.

However, 1/4 mile runs are a different story...

[rajahfl]

Since I haven't responded to Bear-AvHistory's rather mundane and useless posts 'til now, allow me to say that my estimates for drivetrain losses are based on the conservative estimates of trusted BMW tuner Steve Dinan from this video

.

Now, Bear-AvHistory what is your point? Is your point that we cannot accurately estimate drivetrain losses? Point made. Most of the members in these casual-hobbyist forums measure their cars on whatever dyno machines that are readily accessible to us and we are happy with those results.

If you choose to continue droning on and on about drivetrain losses ad nauseam, then please take your opinions to an SAE forum and bore those members to tears instead of us. Thanks