F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > Suspension | Chassis | Brakes > Anti-roll (Sway) Bars Options study
European Auto Source (EAS)
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-25-2017, 05:55 PM   #45
JJS
Lieutenant
New Zealand
113
Rep
441
Posts

Drives: BMW F31 335i 6MT M-Sport
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Wellington, NZ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancelot View Post
M235i is the same as 440i, 15mm rear bar so you can give it a try.
And yes, the e46 3 series of 20years ago was a reference, if you want the same sort of experience m140i or m240i is the way to go, 3 series of today is 5 series of yesterday and itís not even spacious
Thank you, that's most helpful. I will make enquiries with my dealer.

I agree the M135i has fantastic balance. It was my favourite car when I was invited to a track day with a selection of M-cars, including the E92 M3, F10 M5 and F12 M6.

Shortly after buying my F31, I drove an F32 435i. The coupe felt much more agile as well, and I note from the table in the OP that it has the same sway bars as the F30. What would explain the difference in handling and steering?

I also note that the LCI 440i has the same diameter sway bar up front as my M-sport F31, but thicker ones at the back end. Is the LCI 440i RSB the same part number as the M235i's?
__________________
EBII 335i Touring M-Sport (Munich built July 2013)
| 6 Speed Manual | 2VF Adaptive M Suspension | 2VL Variable Sports Steering | 403M wheels | M-Sport brakes | 688 Harman Kardon | 494 Heated Seats | 610 HUD | 322 Comfort Access | 5AC High-Beam Assist | 609 Navigation Professional |
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2017, 02:59 AM   #46
Lancelot
Major
France
344
Rep
1,032
Posts

Drives: 2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid3
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJS View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancelot View Post
M235i is the same as 440i, 15mm rear bar so you can give it a try.
And yes, the e46 3 series of 20years ago was a reference, if you want the same sort of experience m140i or m240i is the way to go, 3 series of today is 5 series of yesterday and itís not even spacious
Thank you, that's most helpful. I will make enquiries with my dealer.

I agree the M135i has fantastic balance. It was my favourite car when I was invited to a track day with a selection of M-cars, including the E92 M3, F10 M5 and F12 M6.

Shortly after buying my F31, I drove an F32 435i. The coupe felt much more agile as well, and I note from the table in the OP that it has the same sway bars as the F30. What would explain the difference in handling and steering?

I also note that the LCI 440i has the same diameter sway bar up front as my M-sport F31, but thicker ones at the back end. Is the LCI 440i RSB the same part number as the M235i's?
Yes, i should update the table but the 440i and m135-235-140-240 share the same part number for anti roll bars
__________________
2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid 3
M Performance BBK - F80 CFRP struts brace - Quaife LSD - KW DDC coilovers - Akrapovic Exhaust - HJS EU6 downpipe - Wagner Evo2 Comp IC - BMC air filter - Powerflex Black Subframe Bushings - Bimmertech amp with Focal speakers
Appreciate 0
      02-01-2018, 09:44 PM   #47
Musashi
Second Lieutenant
34
Rep
216
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i XDrive Laguna Seca
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ottawa

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dotjonnL View Post
Already have Dinan springs and shockware, body roll still there.
Have you also replaced the sway-bars? Every single xDrive owner whom I know and replaced just the springs + shockware still had the body roll.
Appreciate 0
      02-03-2018, 02:52 PM   #48
Littlebear
Major Major
Littlebear's Avatar
United_States
86
Rep
296
Posts

Drives: 2017 330i
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Brklyn. Got a problem wit dat?

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlebear View Post
...and if you have had a shop change your sway bars,
Que Quanto Coste??

Murf
Good question, Murf.
Just got an estimate at my shop of ~ $750. + an alignment. He said the book hours (4+ each end?) would put him closer to $1k!

Murf
Appreciate 0
      02-03-2018, 03:08 PM   #49
Lancelot
Major
France
344
Rep
1,032
Posts

Drives: 2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid3
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

4 hours is enough for both ends for an experienced shop; first time we did it it was very long, second time maybe 2-3h and we added the powerflex subframe bushings in the process
Appreciate 0
      02-03-2018, 06:18 PM   #50
Littlebear
Major Major
Littlebear's Avatar
United_States
86
Rep
296
Posts

Drives: 2017 330i
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Brklyn. Got a problem wit dat?

iTrader: (2)

The guy said they don't do that many "lesser" f's, but more M3 M4, which are easier to change bars on!
Why did BMW do this to us?? I used to change my rear sway bar when I put my winter tires on & off....

Murf

Last edited by Littlebear; 02-03-2018 at 06:23 PM.
Appreciate 1
Lancelot343.50

      02-04-2018, 01:34 AM   #51
ceedawg
Major
ceedawg's Avatar
414
Rep
1,281
Posts

Drives: 2k15 335i xdrive MSport 6spd
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Big City

iTrader: (0)

Has anyone considered also using polyurethane sway bar bushings ,they tend to help alot as well? Energy suspension has aftermarket sway bar links as well.
__________________
2k15 335i Msport xdrive 6spd Wagner Comp2 FMIC,FTP CP,stock exhaust. Fabspeed Sport catted DP, ACS springs. FBO BM3 Stg 2
Wish list Big Turbo kit Yes! PS2 Nope!
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2018, 03:20 AM   #52
Lancelot
Major
France
344
Rep
1,032
Posts

Drives: 2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid3
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlebear View Post
The guy said they don't do that many "lesser" f's, but more M3 M4, which are easier to change bars on!
Why did BMW do this to us?? I used to change my rear sway bar when I put my winter tires on & off....

Murf
Yes indeed! Youíre not supposed to change that on our cars that are increasingly designed for grocery store runs rather than driving fun unfortunately, BMW may be losing their way a little here, consciously or not, leaving all the fun to an M division that is increasingly out of touch with normal budgets (carbon taxes are getting unbearable now in France)

Having said that, I had the opportunity to drive an M4 for a track day a few months ago and I can say that i now prefer my modified F30 to the f82 overall, i found it a better all purpose car than the m4 which is unnecessarily stiff, sounding bad, and annoyingly braking non-progressive. By iím getting carried away
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2018, 03:21 AM   #53
Lancelot
Major
France
344
Rep
1,032
Posts

Drives: 2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid3
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceedawg View Post
Has anyone considered also using polyurethane sway bar bushings ,they tend to help alot as well? Energy suspension has aftermarket sway bar links as well.
Powerflex and superpro have those as well i believe, not sure it makes a significant difference to change only this though ?
Aftermarket bars come with poly bushings as well of course.
Appreciate 1
ceedawg413.50

      02-26-2018, 05:23 PM   #54
chaungo
=D
chaungo's Avatar
Canada
973
Rep
1,719
Posts

Drives: 13' 335ix
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Quebec

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancelot View Post
I've put together a table of the available ARBs for our platform, BMW has quite a lot of options depending on engine, suspension, M Sport, M Adaptive or standard.

In a nutshell:
- 6 cyl get weaker front bars than 4 cyl engines
- M Sport has slightly stronger bars front and rear
- 440i LCI have stronger bars (same as M235i) than non-LCI 435i
- Xdrive have weaker front bars but same rear bars.

Aftermarket:
I've tried the H&R but they're too stiff on the rear.
I've now put on the M235i bars now and they're too weak on the front.
The sweet spot is probably the KW or Eibach, which I might try next.
(I always put bars in pairs because they're designed as pairs)

Some vendors (Hotchkis, Dinan) have hollow bars so you can't directly compare diameters with plain, non-hollow bars, hollow bar will be weaker than plain for same outer diameter.

Hope this helps...
Quick question, did you ever upgrade your front/rear endlinks with the sways? I hear you should do it if the car is lowered.
__________________
2013 335i xDrive
Bootmod3, Pure Stage 2, Pure Inlet, GFB DV+, AFE Pro Dry S Drop-in Filter, ER CP/TIC CP, ER Catless DP, ATM FMIC, Borla ATAK, Dinan Springs, Dinan Shockware, XHP ZF8AT Stage 3
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2018, 06:25 PM   #55
IK6SPEED
Major General
IK6SPEED's Avatar
United_States
2607
Rep
7,180
Posts

Drives: BMW M3 / AH3
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cali

iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaungo View Post
Quick question, did you ever upgrade your front/rear endlinks with the sways? I hear you should do it if the car is lowered.
Check his subsequent posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancelot View Post
Same here, I got the M135i bars on now, and very happy with the result; good compromise between firm and compliant.

By the way my H&R bars are for sale
(shipping to the EU - ridiculous shipping costs elsewhere)
__________________
Stable: F80 / AH3
Past: F80 ZCP / F22 M235i / E89 35is
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2018, 06:39 PM   #56
Littlebear
Major Major
Littlebear's Avatar
United_States
86
Rep
296
Posts

Drives: 2017 330i
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Brklyn. Got a problem wit dat?

iTrader: (2)

Hello BMW Experts!

I finally got the rear sway bar in, so now have the big 440i sway bars front & rear. I haven't taken the car to the hills yet, so have no driving report.
But the install was a royal pain. My 330i, made in 10/16, bog stock suspension, came with no rear bar at all. The first shop I asked managed to replace the front bar, but chickened out on the rear bar because it wasn't a 'replace' like in the front, but more of an unknown. So 'F' them, I dropped my car at a better place this morn who said they could do it. Got a call a few hours later saying they didn't know where to attach the bar at the strut/hub end. WTF!! So I went out and put their fingers on the screw holes. Then they managed for a large price.
I also put in the M3/4 front lower lateral links, which give ~ 0.5 degrees camber & have stiffer ball joints & bushings, & maybe are lighter. I put these in myself & had to drive ~ 2 miles for an alignment. I had so much toe it was scary! I should have done an eyeball alignment. But the driving improvement is obvious, with turn-in very nice & sharp.
With these bars in, I think I have my suspension where I want it: M-Sport springs, Billie shocks, 440i sway bars, M3/4 lateral links, lite 17" wheels. I'm ready for the dirty back roads....

Murf
Appreciate 1
Lancelot343.50

      04-27-2018, 06:48 PM   #57
sspade
Brigadier General
sspade's Avatar
United_States
977
Rep
3,175
Posts

Drives: F30 328i
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Placerville, CA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2014 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlebear View Post
Hello BMW Experts!

I finally got the rear sway bar in, so now have the big 440i sway bars front & rear. I haven't taken the car to the hills yet, so have no driving report.
But the install was a royal pain. My 330i, made in 10/16, bog stock suspension, came with no rear bar at all. The first shop I asked managed to replace the front bar, but chickened out on the rear bar because it wasn't a 'replace' like in the front, but more of an unknown. So 'F' them, I dropped my car at a better place this morn who said they could do it. Got a call a few hours later saying they didn't know where to attach the bar at the strut/hub end. WTF!! So I went out and put their fingers on the screw holes. Then they managed for a large price.
I also put in the M3/4 front lower lateral links, which give ~ 0.5 degrees camber & have stiffer ball joints & bushings, & maybe are lighter. I put these in myself & had to drive ~ 2 miles for an alignment. I had so much toe it was scary! I should have done an eyeball alignment. But the driving improvement is obvious, with turn-in very nice & sharp.
With these bars in, I think I have my suspension where I want it: M-Sport springs, Billie shocks, 440i sway bars, M3/4 lateral links, lite 17" wheels. I'm ready for the dirty back roads....

Murf
Im looking for a similar set up... hadnt thought of the lateral links yet...

Can you confirm the part numbers for the sways?

How about the part number for the springs?

Also - did you go with Bilstein B6? Thats what I was leaning towards at the moment.
__________________
BMW 328i visit my garage for build details.
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2018, 07:33 PM   #58
Littlebear
Major Major
Littlebear's Avatar
United_States
86
Rep
296
Posts

Drives: 2017 330i
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Brklyn. Got a problem wit dat?

iTrader: (2)

Hi S,

The 440iLCI/M235i sway bars listed at the start of this thread agree with what REALoem has listed, so I got the biggest factory bars, 2420 & 3476. I got 1 used, and the other new at a lower price than the used one.

The springs I got from a member here, from the classifieds. For a little on the spring ID prob, check this thread:
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1466527

I got Billie B8s. Partly because there are no B6s to be found in this world, but also because in my searches for Billies for sale, I found an official German Bilstein site that wasn't as strict about the drop preferred by the B8. They listed BMW Sport springs as being fine. Much might be advertising....

Murf
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Littlebear; 04-27-2018 at 07:50 PM.
Appreciate 2
sspade977.00
Fr3sh16.00

      04-27-2018, 09:47 PM   #59
IK6SPEED
Major General
IK6SPEED's Avatar
United_States
2607
Rep
7,180
Posts

Drives: BMW M3 / AH3
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cali

iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlebear View Post
Hello BMW Experts!

I finally got the rear sway bar in, so now have the big 440i sway bars front & rear. I haven't taken the car to the hills yet, so have no driving report.
But the install was a royal pain. My 330i, made in 10/16, bog stock suspension, came with no rear bar at all. The first shop I asked managed to replace the front bar, but chickened out on the rear bar because it wasn't a 'replace' like in the front, but more of an unknown. So 'F' them, I dropped my car at a better place this morn who said they could do it. Got a call a few hours later saying they didn't know where to attach the bar at the strut/hub end. WTF!! So I went out and put their fingers on the screw holes. Then they managed for a large price.
I also put in the M3/4 front lower lateral links, which give ~ 0.5 degrees camber & have stiffer ball joints & bushings, & maybe are lighter. I put these in myself & had to drive ~ 2 miles for an alignment. I had so much toe it was scary! I should have done an eyeball alignment. But the driving improvement is obvious, with turn-in very nice & sharp.
With these bars in, I think I have my suspension where I want it: M-Sport springs, Billie shocks, 440i sway bars, M3/4 lateral links, lite 17" wheels. I'm ready for the dirty back roads....

Murf
P/N for the M3 lateral links?
__________________
Stable: F80 / AH3
Past: F80 ZCP / F22 M235i / E89 35is
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2018, 12:22 AM   #60
Lancelot
Major
France
344
Rep
1,032
Posts

Drives: 2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid3
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

Look for threads about f80 LCA (lower control arms), there are plenty of references on the topic; i went there myself, and back. M3 LCAs are indeed providing added negative camber and the benefits of noticeably sharper turnin, however i got two major drawbacks from them
- high speed stability (~130km/h or 80mph) issues: car became so sensitive to crosswinds that it was dangerous whenever a wind gust or overtaking a big truck
- rubbing: these control arms move the wheel further front and started rubbing at the front of the wheel pit.

These arms are not made for f30 chassis, bear in mind that f30 and f80 subframes are completely different, unlike previous generations of 3 series.

The best way to get more camber is to swap the wheel hubs with the -0.5deg versions intended for f30s (and come as default to m135i/m235i), which respects the intended geometry of the car, other options are to be avoided in my opinion.
__________________
2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid 3
M Performance BBK - F80 CFRP struts brace - Quaife LSD - KW DDC coilovers - Akrapovic Exhaust - HJS EU6 downpipe - Wagner Evo2 Comp IC - BMC air filter - Powerflex Black Subframe Bushings - Bimmertech amp with Focal speakers

Last edited by Lancelot; 04-28-2018 at 02:15 AM.
Appreciate 2
IK6SPEED2606.50

      04-28-2018, 12:58 AM   #61
IK6SPEED
Major General
IK6SPEED's Avatar
United_States
2607
Rep
7,180
Posts

Drives: BMW M3 / AH3
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cali

iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancelot View Post
Look for threads about f80 LCA (lower control arms), there are plenty of references on the topic; i went there myself, and back. M3 LCAs are indeed providing added negative camber and the benefits of noticeably sharper turnin, however i got two major drawbacks from them
- high speed stability (~130km/h or 80mph) issues: car became so sensitive to crosswinds that it was dangerous whenever a wind gust or overtaking a big truck
- rubbing: these control arms move the wheel further front and started rubbing at the front of the wheel pit.

These arms are not made for f30 chassis, bear in mind that f30 and f80 subframes are completely different, jnlike previous generations of 3 series.

The best way to get more camber is to swap the wheel hubs with the -0.5deg versions intended for f30s (and come as default to m135i/m235i), which respects the intended geometry of the car, other options are to be avoided in my opinion.
Interesting.

Out of curiosity, which of the label part numbers in the M235i diagram/link are you referring to?

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=31_0956
Attached Images
 
__________________
Stable: F80 / AH3
Past: F80 ZCP / F22 M235i / E89 35is

Last edited by IK6SPEED; 04-28-2018 at 01:07 AM.
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2018, 01:12 AM   #62
Lancelot
Major
France
344
Rep
1,032
Posts

Drives: 2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid3
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

So it's item 2, ending in 651 and 652 (note the -30min mention)

It’s clearly mentioned in the euro version of the parts:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...54#31216853651
“Important! Swivel bearing for camber correction -30 min. is installed as standard equipment on the M135i.”

And i guess this is also true for the m235i, strangely however this isn’t mentionned on the US version, i think it’s more likely to be a labeling issue than an actual difference, but who knows...
__________________
2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid 3
M Performance BBK - F80 CFRP struts brace - Quaife LSD - KW DDC coilovers - Akrapovic Exhaust - HJS EU6 downpipe - Wagner Evo2 Comp IC - BMC air filter - Powerflex Black Subframe Bushings - Bimmertech amp with Focal speakers

Last edited by Lancelot; 04-28-2018 at 02:12 AM.
Appreciate 1
IK6SPEED2606.50

      04-28-2018, 05:51 AM   #63
Littlebear
Major Major
Littlebear's Avatar
United_States
86
Rep
296
Posts

Drives: 2017 330i
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Brklyn. Got a problem wit dat?

iTrader: (2)

I used #10 from this diagram:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=31_1123

Pls provide more on the negatives. I'm all ears.

Murf
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2018, 06:11 AM   #64
Lancelot
Major
France
344
Rep
1,032
Posts

Drives: 2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid3
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

I did too, as well as #9 (with F30 bushings in place of F80 bushings which are narrower)

Check my post in this thread :
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1090804&page=5
and see how far ahead the wheel went in the wheel pit (last pic)
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=107

(edit)
Note that
- I have not hear anyone else complain of this stability issue.
- However the very day I removed these F80 LCAs and switched back to OEM F30 LCAs the stability issues were gone.

So there's all the evidence I need to trace the issue to these F8x control arms, but I can't explain why I would be alone with this issue. It could be that I am more sensitive, but tbh the stability issue I had was a real safety issue where the car would swerve by about 1m left or right under wind gusts, e.g. crossing a bridge (sudden wind change) or just slightly stormy weather (sudden gusts), or overtaking a truck (massive aspiration).
__________________
2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid 3
M Performance BBK - F80 CFRP struts brace - Quaife LSD - KW DDC coilovers - Akrapovic Exhaust - HJS EU6 downpipe - Wagner Evo2 Comp IC - BMC air filter - Powerflex Black Subframe Bushings - Bimmertech amp with Focal speakers

Last edited by Lancelot; 04-28-2018 at 06:39 AM.
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2018, 09:05 AM   #65
Littlebear
Major Major
Littlebear's Avatar
United_States
86
Rep
296
Posts

Drives: 2017 330i
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Brklyn. Got a problem wit dat?

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Sir Lancelot,

for sharing your experience. But with all due respect, I'm not seeing much concern out there. Respected shops like Turner, Birds, HP Autosport, & others are selling or recommending the LCA replacement as plug & play. I seem to have sufficient space in front of the tires, maybe because I'm running stock size.
On the E46 many changed the FCAB to a Z4 part (I think) to gain caster, and the slotted top strut mount gave a little more camber. I did both, and liked them. Before this change my F30 had basically zero camber up front.
Somehow, I didn't get the alignment sheet last night when I picked up my car, but will try on Monday. I don't think the camber & caster #s are out of range for a road car, the change from stock being fairly minor?

Murf

Last edited by Littlebear; 04-28-2018 at 09:11 AM.
Appreciate 1
IK6SPEED2606.50

      04-28-2018, 09:08 AM   #66
Lancelot
Major
France
344
Rep
1,032
Posts

Drives: 2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid3
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

No worries, just sharing my unhappy experience as it could help others - make your own opinion and keep us posted
(Btw my wheels are stock too)
Appreciate 1
IK6SPEED2606.50

Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:39 PM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST