[Hartside]

I’m not so sure regarding battery development. A lot of work is going on at the moment with regard to speeding up charging times and if we see half the progression of range improvement we’ve seen in the last 5 years it will be a decent step improvement. If, in 5 years time a car could be charged very quickly vs one that takes a long time I can’t see the demand for the older one being high. Trouble is we haven’t a crystal ball and only time will tell I suppose.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Hartside

I'm not so sure regarding battery development. A lot of work is going on at the moment with regard to speeding up charging times and if we see half the progression of range improvement we've seen in the last 5 years it will be a decent step improvement. If, in 5 years time a car could be charged very quickly vs one that takes a long time I can't see the demand for the older one being high. Trouble is we haven't a crystal ball and only time will tell I suppose.

In 5 years time, 90% of cars registered in 2020, and higher percentages of those in earlier years, will be using technology that many will consider undesirable or useless or vastly expensive (city centre charges).

It's not the residuals of PHEVS and BEVS that should be of concern, but the residuals of everything else.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

In 5 years time, 90% of cars registered in 2020, and higher percentages of those in earlier years, will be using technology that many will consider undesirable or useless or vastly expensive (city centre charges).

It's not the residuals of PHEVS and BEVS that should be of concern, but the residuals of everything else.

Such a warming thought.....

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

In 5 years time, 90% of cars registered in 2020, and higher percentages of those in earlier years, will be using technology that many will consider undesirable or useless or vastly expensive (city centre charges).

It's not the residuals of PHEVS and BEVS that should be of concern, but the residuals of everything else.

ICE isn't going to get much better stick with what you have if you have a good one.
Battery tech is going to get much better so hold out a bit longer so that you don't buy obsolete plug in items at an inflated price. Why is is so hard for you to understand that?

[KRS_SN]

also in 10 years my car which I bought and had a range of 500 miles in a full tank will do that.
will the ev purchased still do same miles per full charge as the time of purchase 10 years ago?

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

ICE isn't going to get much better stick with what you have if you have a good one.
Battery tech is going to get much better so hold out a bit longer so that you don't buy obsolete plug in items at an inflated price. Why is is so hard for you to understand that?

Incredibly sorry that my understanding isn't as good as yours. Feeling ok hun? Little bit stroppy?

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

also in 10 years my car which I bought and had a range of 500 miles in a full tank will do that.
will the ev purchased still do same miles per full charge as the time of purchase 10 years ago?

None of which was the point under discussion. The point was made that today's BEV/PHEV would be a risky value proposition and might be worth relatively little in a few years. Not everyone, myself included, agreed.

It's a discussion forum, so everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[KRS_SN]

you keep peddling myths and opinions that suit your narrative and any disagreement and your response is 'but that's not the point under discussion'
I didn't realise only you had the rights to decide what points could be discussed 'patronising much' ?

[davyk31]

I am trying to sell a 5 year old Golf GTE owned by my company and most trade buyers aren’t even wanting to offer a price. A similar age and mileage petrol or diesel Golf would be worth 4 to 5k more and they would have had lower list prices new.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

you keep peddling myths and opinions that suit your narrative and any disagreement and your response is 'but that's not the point under discussion'
I didn't realise only you had the rights to decide what points could be discussed 'patronising much' ?

I responded, civilly, to two civil posts from Hartside, which were around very specific points. In the first, I even typed IMHO. So, yes, opinions. Although I would draw the line at saying I "peddle" them.

Genuinely don't understand what has irritated you so much. Usually find plenty of common ground with your posts. But so be it. No wish to have yet another forum battleground.

Enjoy your Saturday evening

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by davyk31

I am trying to sell a 5 year old Golf GTE owned by my company and most trade buyers aren’t even wanting to offer a price. A similar age and mileage petrol or diesel Golf would be worth 4 to 5k more and they would have had lower list prices new.

That's interesting. I'm not up on the GTE, but that's a small capacity PHeV I think?

One thing I read recently was that the Covid decimation of the taxi trade has had a very predictable effect on the secondhand values of the Prius (and no doubt Auris hybrid, too). Being a similar size, I wonder if the Golf GTE is a victim of the current glut of midsize hybrids.

[davyk31]

It’s a 1.4 petrol and battery hybrid giving just over 200bhp. Wouldn’t be the average taxi by any means.
Private buyers would be righty scared of a huge bill if the battery pack needed work or replaced. Only some VW dealers have staff trained to work on them therefore there won’t be a hope with the average back street garage so any maintenance costs are high.

PHEV were solely for company car buyers to get a bargain with their benefit in kind and that mantle has now been taken up by the full electric vehicles.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by davyk31

It’s a 1.4 petrol and battery hybrid giving just over 200bhp. Wouldn’t be the average taxi by any means.
Private buyers would be righty scared of a huge bill if the battery pack needed work or replaced. Only some VW dealers have staff trained to work on them therefore there won’t be a hope with the average back street garage so any maintenance costs are high.

PHEV were solely for company car buyers to get a bargain with their benefit in kind and that mantle has now been taken up by the full electric vehicles.

What sort of mileage has it done and how much are you asking? My guess is the fact it wont sell will be tied up in that info....

Ship it over to near London, will sell in days!

[davyk31]

It’s at 100k with a full VW dealer service history. Haven’t yet tried to advertise it but just been asking for some trade offers to see what they value it at. Autotrader suggest a sale price of about £9500.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by davyk31

It’s at 100k with a full VW dealer service history. Haven’t yet tried to advertise it but just been asking for some trade offers to see what they value it at. Autotrader suggest a sale price of about £9500.

Ta. I guess the mileage doesnt help with relatively new tech but I reckon in the London area that would sell very quickly to a trader....

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

also in 10 years my car which I bought and had a range of 500 miles in a full tank will do that.
will the ev purchased still do same miles per full charge as the time of purchase 10 years ago?

Skip to about 15 minutes, essentially a 8 year old Tesla with 200k+ miles on the clock manages the same range as current EVs from Polstar/Merc/Audi.

I don't know if that shows how far ahead Tesla was, or how slowly EV tech js actually moving.

https://youtu.be/ZeHg5MUibwY

What I do know is I have no intention of selling our EV till its close to 10 years old, I don't anticipate having to need to replace the battery pack ever. The biggest challenge for me has been to resist the temptation to drive everywhere in it because its so cheap to run, I was doing 15k miles a year despite having a daily commute of 10 miles!!

I've managed to reign in the needless driving with getting a pedal bike with a motor.

Having now driven/owned various EVs as our main family car since 2015, and done about 65k miles across the UK, and France, I personally understand why people still 'worry' about EVs, but the reality is for most families they are unnecessary worries.

At the end of the day buy/run what ever you want, but EVs currently are still been pushed by government with incentives like no fuel tax/VED. Sure you can run a combustion car for cheaper but taking into the same initial purchase costs of any new car, the longterm ownership costs of EVs is pennies in exchange for performance figures that means our 'base' Tesla with a sub 5 second 0-60 time is actually considerably 'slow' in the EV world!!

My decision to get a Tesla instead of a F10 M5 back in 2015 was at least partly because I was fed up of 25mpg/constant need for maintaining of my 335i, and the M5 was just going to make the 335i seem cheap to own. I saw EVs simply as a way of having my cake and eating it, great performance AND cheap to own, surely the holy grail?

6 years from that decision I have zero regrets, if anything I wish I had done it sooner. This is one of the first 'reviews' of the Tesla Model S I watched, and it was enough for me to pony up £60k(before we changed the order to a Model X) unseen/having never even sat in one let alone drive one!! - Well the only regret was not buying Tesla shares back in 2014, watching that review again its perhaps unsurprising to see how Tesla stock has shot up, £60k worth of Tesla shares back in 2014 would probably see me through a few lifetimes of reiteiment now but that's another topic .

I admit am a tech nerd, and I like trying new tech first. But £35k budget for a second family car, you need to be mad to waste that money on a PHEV over an EV if you ask me. EVs really aren't some new age tech anymore, EVs tech is done/sorted, just look at the date on that video, its a lifetime in the tech world. For me the new exciting tech coming it autonomous software not EVs.

[Bryans69]

I don't see PHEVs having any real future, as they seem to be the worst of both worlds. I like the idea of them in theory, but in practice it's a lot of weight and complexity to improve local air quality slightly. And that ignores the pollution from tyres and brakes, which will be the next big thing (surprised it's been ignored for so long, given that scientists have being talking about it for some time)

EV's are definitely the future, although current charging infrastructure (Tesla excluded) does realistically limit them to people with off street parking.

My personal issue is that nobody currently makes an EV I'd even remotely want to buy. I know Gangzoom and others rate Tesla, and after reading his comments I can understand why, but to look at inside and out, they are ghastly (and surely the Model X is an MPV (S-MAX ?) coupe, not an SUV, although to be honest not really sure what the definition is any more anyway).

The Taycan and Audi equivalent are great looking but silly money, as is the iPace (and I wouldn't touch anything from JLR anyway), which leaves a bunch of expensive short range town cars.

I know that is going to change, and hopefully what the next few years will bring is innovative design, but for now, if I was buying new, or second hand, there isn't a single EV that would get my money

[davyk31]

I have tried a couple of EV and can see an appeal for a daily driver. Exciting they are not and really are quite a bland driving experience. Would I have one, yes if it’s a virtually free company car. As a day to day transport for someone not doing a lot of miles who isn’t really interested in car last then yes I can also see they tick a box.

I know Tesla drivers will argue otherwise but once you take away their fast acceleration I don’t see much appeal. Looks aren’t special and build quality can be very poor.

Agree that PHEV with 20 to 30 miles seem a bit pointless with all that weight and hassle charging for vert little electric driving. Again maybe someone with very little miles per week could survive a long time on electric but then if not using the car engine much that can be problematic.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Skip to about 15 minutes, essentially a 8 year old Tesla with 200k+ miles on the clock manages the same range as current EVs from Polstar/Merc/Audi.

I don't know if that shows how far ahead Tesla was, or how slowly EV tech js actually moving.

What I do know is I have no intention of selling our EV till its close to 10 years old, I don't anticipate having to need to replace the battery pack ever. The biggest challenge for me has been to resist the temptation to drive everywhere in it because its so cheap to run, I was doing 15k miles a year despite having a daily commute of 10 miles!!

I've managed to reign in the needless driving with getting a pedal bike with a motor.

Having now driven/owned various EVs as our main family car since 2015, and done about 65k miles across the UK, and France, I personally understand why people still 'worry' about EVs, but the reality is for most families they are unnecessary worries.

At the end of the day buy/run what ever you want, but EVs currently are still been pushed by government with incentives like no fuel tax/VED. Sure you can run a combustion car for cheaper but taking into the same initial purchase costs of any new car, the longterm ownership costs of EVs is pennies in exchange for performance figures that means our 'base' Tesla with a sub 5 second 0-60 time is actually considerably 'slow' in the EV world!!

My decision to get a Tesla instead of a F10 M5 back in 2015 was at least partly because I was fed up of 25mpg/constant need for maintaining of my 335i, and the M5 was just going to make the 335i seem cheap to own. I saw EVs simply as a way of having my cake and eating it, great performance AND cheap to own, surely the holy grail?

6 years from that decision I have zero regrets, if anything I wish I had done it sooner. This is one of the first 'reviews' of the Tesla Model S I watched, and it was enough for me to pony up £60k(before we changed the order to a Model X) unseen/having never even sat in one let alone drive one!! - Well the only regret was not buying Tesla shares back in 2014, watching that review again its perhaps unsurprising to see how Tesla stock has shot up, £60k worth of Tesla shares back in 2014 would probably see me through a few lifetimes of reiteiment now but that's another topic .

I admit am a tech nerd, and I like trying new tech first. But £35k budget for a second family car, you need to be mad to waste that money on a PHEV over an EV if you ask me. EVs really aren't some new age tech anymore, EVs tech is done/sorted, just look at the date on that video, its a lifetime in the tech world. For me the new exciting tech coming it autonomous software not EVs.

https://maartensteinbuch.com/tag/battery-degradation/

battery degradation is an issue plus it isn't covered under the 8 year tesla warranty.
The model x is an suv so definitely more practical than an m5. I would do the same if those were my only choices.Not buying Model S good call for its price it its rather cheap and rattly inside.

Finally you talk of 6 years since you took the decision your earlier post attached ie 4 years into ownership (slightly confused) and its good you have a resolve to keep it for another 6 years but EV tech is evolving in that batteries are getting cheaper to produce and energy density is increasing.

Final point you are right in buying what you want I spend around £1400 in fuel yearly but not having to plug in or worry about range etc is worth that outlay to me perhaps to millions of others.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Finally you talk of 6 years since you took the decision your earlier post attached ie 4 years into ownership (slightly confused) and its good you have a resolve to keep it for another 6 years but EV tech is evolving in that batteries are getting cheaper to produce and energy density is increasing.

I has a Nissan Leaf for 20 months or so on a £200/month no deposit lease as my first 'forray' into EVs, at the time I was easily spending £200/month on fuel - £1.4/L for superunleaded at the time.

I changed our order for a S to a X after seeing the first Xs in LA, UK delivery didn't start till Q1 2017 which is when we got ours .

I've been following EV tech for a while now, there really has been very little change in tech and not much coming. The biggest disappointment for me is EV pricing, it simply hasn't dropped as quickly as I had hoped. I certainly didn't think a Model S/X would MORE to buy in 2021 versus 2017 by nearly 40% more!! Cost is the biggest issue with EVs not the tech itself.

[Grant_7]

Originally Posted by davyk31

I know Tesla drivers will argue otherwise but once you take away their fast acceleration I don’t see much appeal. Looks aren’t special and build quality can be very poor.

I can only speak from my own experience, but my Model 3 drives much better than my previous 340i. I prefer its faster steering, it stays much flatter in corners, it weighs less and feels it. Also it's powertrain knocks the 340i engine & gearbox for six in terms of refinement and response. It doesn't ride quite as well however.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

I has a Nissan Leaf for 20 months or so on a £200/month no deposit lease as my first 'forray' into EVs, at the time I was easily spending £200/month on fuel - £1.4/L for superunleaded at the time.

I changed our order for a S to a X after seeing the first Xs in LA, UK delivery didn't start till Q1 2017 which is when we got ours .

I've been following EV tech for a while now, there really has been very little change in tech and not much coming. The biggest disappointment for me is EV pricing, it simply hasn't dropped as quickly as I had hoped. I certainly didn't think a Model S/X would MORE to buy in 2021 versus 2017 by nearly 40% more!! Cost is the biggest issue with EVs not the tech itself.

[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/1541/2...4b4b34_c_d.jpg[/img]

from the time of your Nissan Leaf to now is a tiny drop in ev years. Early adopter phase few sales little I any profits per sale
with so many manufacturers throwing themselves in there will be so many options not just the S and X back then.
ICE cars also have gotten more expensive in the past few years so ev cars like your x getting more expensive isn't out of character plus they are newer better tech better range etc.
The EV are likely to be more costly than their equal non ice counterparts esp SUV's you'll of course save in some fuel costs but that can be seen as pennywise pound foolish.