[Wills2]

Originally Posted by 225

lol calm down dear.
I was just stating the Government does have some good people who could have been called in.
I'm not saying we would have got milk and unicorns but it may very well have got the WAB through with a different deal on offer. The EU wheeled out experienced negotiators and we got Olly Robin's.

All if buts and maybes now and who knows where the cards will fall but I hope a sensible middle ground candidate gets in.

No names I see.....just more meaningless platitudes.

Jog on.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by 225

lol calm down dear.
I was just stating the Government does have some good people who could have been called in.
I'm not saying we would have got milk and unicorns but it may very well have got the WAB through with a different deal on offer. The EU wheeled out experienced negotiators and we got Olly Robin's.

All if buts and maybes now and who knows where the cards will fall but I hope a sensible middle ground candidate gets in.

Who?

Plus evidence of their prior experience and success and the same for the EU negotiators (before their Brexit negotiations).

Without any of that evidence, the idea that we had better negotiators in hiding is on a par with the NHS post-Brexit magic money fountain.

'Jog on' (mentioned by Wills) is exactly the phrase that the EU negotiators are fully entitled to use against the club-quitters banging on the reception desk demanding continued access as we make our way out.

[225]

Originally Posted by Wills2

No names I see.....just more meaningless platitudes.

Jog on.

Lol what so you can Google them to add to your clearly informed coherent "jog on" comment.

Having worked with the FCO and DFT I have seen first hand that they do have and bring in some very talented negotiators. They deal with very complex international negotiations on a daily basis out of just about every overseas office the FCO has. I can tell you there was a great deal of shaking of heads and incredualrity on the way the Brexit negotiating team was put together and hamstrung by politicians.

However I guess you are not interested in all that and you clearly know more than any of us.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by 225

Lol what so you can Google them to add to your clearly informed coherent "jog on" comment.

Having worked with the FCO and DFT I have seen first hand that they do have and bring in some very talented negotiators. They deal with very complex international negotiations on a daily basis out of just about every overseas office the FCO has. I can tell you there was a great deal of shaking of heads and incredualrity on the way the Brexit negotiating team was put together and hamstrung by politicians.

However I guess you are not interested in all that and you clearly know more than any of us.

Put whatever genius negotiator you like in front of them and we still lose. We were in a shit position of extreme weakness and the EU were in a position of strength. In fact worse than that, they could really only agree a shit deal with us, give us a good one and everyone else leaves. They could never allow that.......

Not sure what your point is. Naive expectations all round yet again.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

Put whatever genius negotiator you like in front of them and we still lose. We were in a shit position of extreme weakness and the EU were in a position of strength. In fact worse than that, they could really only agree a shit deal with us, give us a good one and everyone else leaves. They could never allow that.......

Not sure what your point is. Naive expectations all round yet again.

225 made his point in post number 1342 and it was a fair one IMO; not naive expectations, just suggesting a better negotiating team with clear guidance could have agreed something rather better than the steaming heap of excrement the PM and her appointees have returned with.

If you genuinely believe Theresa May's Withdrawal Agreement is the best we could have ever achieved - and nobody could have possibly done any better - we'll have to agree to differ (again!).

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by JNW1

225 made his point in post number 1342 and it was a fair one IMO; not naive expectations, just suggesting a better negotiating team with clear guidance could have agreed something rather better than the steaming heap of excrement the PM and her appointees have returned with.

If you genuinely believe Theresa May's Withdrawal Agreement is the best we could have ever achieved - and nobody could have possibly done any better - we'll have to agree to differ (again!).

I don't think there was only one deal available. I think there were various options available, but the EU would have made sure all of those were a bit crap too.

Anything else destroys the EU. We get a good deal and those who were thinking of doing the same get straight on with it and leave.

Right now the fuck up we've made of Brexit is perfect for the rest of the EU. Any country that was thinking about doing the same isn't going to even consider it now.

[zofinger]

Has anyone heard anything as to WHY EU chose 31/10 as the extension date? I ask as I suspect it was to provide media (social and mainstream) with tons of material relating to Halloween. Imagine the memes. Remainers will have a field day.

It's not a Friday, not quarter-end (as the March data was) ...the new PM's first job should be to set another date (i..e: a week or so earlier).

[mikeoz]

Originally Posted by zofinger

Has anyone heard anything as to WHY EU chose 31/10 as the extension date? I ask as I suspect it was to provide media (social and mainstream) with tons of material relating to Halloween. Imagine the memes. Remainers will have a field day.

It's not a Friday, not quarter-end (as the March data was) ...the new PM's first job should be to set another date (i..e: a week or so earlier).

No logical reason as such but media headlines sounds about right to me..

[JD6]

Originally Posted by zofinger

Has anyone heard anything as to WHY EU chose 31/10 as the extension date? I ask as I suspect it was to provide media (social and mainstream) with tons of material relating to Halloween. Imagine the memes. Remainers will have a field day.

It's not a Friday, not quarter-end (as the March data was) ...the new PM's first job should be to set another date (i..e: a week or so earlier).

The date was chosen to coincide with the election of a new European Commission.

The European Commission runs a 5 year electoral cycle, with Junker (President) and his Commissioners, in place until 31/10/19. Macron didn't want the agenda of the new Commission to be all about Brexit, which of course it will

[NISFAN]

Just wondering if the mood has changed in here.

The consensus by a group of pro remainers seemed to be that 'leave vote' was mainly because the population were conned by a red bus or was voted for by old biddies remembering the 'good old days'. A second referendum now knowing the intricacies of what leaving is about would give a strong swing back to remain.

With the gains in the BP and no traction by CUK, does the 'the group' still think remain would win a second referendum?

[zofinger]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Just wondering if the mood has changed in here.

The consensus by a group of pro remainers seemed to be that 'leave vote' was mainly because the population were conned by a red bus or was voted for by old biddies remembering the 'good old days'. A second referendum now knowing the intricacies of what leaving is about would give a strong swing back to remain.

With the gains in the BP and no traction by CUK, does the 'the group' still think remain would win a second referendum?

Don't forget to add 'conned by Farage'!

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Just wondering if the mood has changed in here.

The consensus by a group of pro remainers seemed to be that 'leave vote' was mainly because the population were conned by a red bus or was voted for by old biddies remembering the 'good old days'. A second referendum now knowing the intricacies of what leaving is about would give a strong swing back to remain.

With the gains in the BP and no traction by CUK, does the 'the group' still think remain would win a second referendum?

Chart from BBC news website:

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Chart from BBC news website:

Yep if you polarise the results into 'Brexit party' vs. the rest. It doesn't account for brexiteers that wouldn't want a no deal Brexit which is what BP stand for. I'm pretty sure there are no 'remainers' voting BP.

Seems independent analysts conclude that the EU elections have validated the 2016 referendum result.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Yep if you polarise the results into 'Brexit party' vs. the rest. It doesn't account for brexiteers that wouldn't want a no deal Brexit which is what BP stand for. I'm pretty sure there are no 'remainers' voting BP.

Seems independent analysts conclude that the EU elections have validated the 2016 referendum result.

total vote/total vote share stats by remain or leave party are the best indicators as to how people would vote in a 2nd ref., which is the question you asked

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

With the gains in the BP and no traction by CUK, does the 'the group' still think remain would win a second referendum?

Yes, but...

My main reason for wanting a second referendum is to check the public's view on the most momentous change to affect our country in decades. New information is known, new opinions have been shared, do we - as a nation - still wish to leave?

One thing I do not buy from the Leave side is that more democracy is a terribly unjust thing. It has less credibility than the bus.

[mikeoz]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Yes, but...



One thing I do not buy from the Leave side is that more democracy is a terribly unjust thing. It has less credibility than the bus.

I agree on this point which is why i was surprised that not 1 MP that resigned their Party whip and set up the Change Party did not hold a by-election...based on the same principle they should? Test to see if this is what the people that voted them in really want given they no longer sit in the party they voted for?

[TimMcC]

Originally Posted by mikeoz

I agree on this point which is why i was surprised that not 1 MP that resigned their Party whip and set up the Change Party did not hold a by-election...based on the same principle they should? Test to see if this is what the people that voted them in really want given they no longer sit in the party they voted for?

As long as they vote in line with how they said they would in the manifesto they stood on, bot sure it matters which party they align themselves with does it?

No idea what any of them claimed they were standing on during the GE though. My MP is Julian Lewis

[TimMcC]

Second Referendum seems like the most likely outcome to me now. Still can't get no deal through parliament, and given the near certainty that in a GE Labour and Tories would both be taken to the cleaners, can't see support for that in the house either!

[Liquidfox]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

With the gains in the BP and no traction by CUK, does the 'the group' still think remain would win a second referendum?

Honestly I do, I don't think anyone has swung to Leave, but I imagine there's quite a few that have swung to remain now that they've had time to do some research, hear more information about it all etc.

[zofinger]

Originally Posted by Liquidfox

Honestly I do, I don't think anyone has swung to Leave, but I imagine there's quite a few that have swung to remain now that they've had time to do some research, hear more information about it all etc.

Plus people now understand the EU have offered a shite deal (there are many reasons why they have done that - all have been covered in this thread) which will have likely caused them to have second thoughts. Clearly however many still feel 'just leave' (c.32% of the population). - that much is certain.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

total vote/total vote share stats by remain or leave party are the best indicators as to how people would vote in a 2nd ref., which is the question you asked

But how do you know those who voted for the Remain parties as defined by the BBC did so with Remain as their motive?

For example, the Greens made quite significant gains right across Europe - where Brexit obviously wasn't a factor - so isn't it possible at least some people in the UK voted Green because of their Green policies rather than the fact they're pro-Remain? It's entirely feasible some pro-Leavers voted Green (because the environment's more important to them than Brexit) and therefore to count all of the Green percentage as Remain in the way the BBC have is a bit of a leap of faith IMO.

Also, one of the things Remainers have told us consistently since the 2016 referendum is Leavers were lied to and didn't know what they were voting for, and, with the wisdom of hindsight, many would change their opinion (and hence we need a further referendum to confirm the previous result). However, if all that was true surely we'd have seen a significant collapse in the pro-Brexit vote but that didn't happen; in actual fact, The Brexit Party polled more votes and took a larger share of the vote than UKIP did in 2014.

Personally I think all the European elections have shown is there's been no significant change in opinion since 2016 and in reality the country is as divided on the Brexit issue as it's been for the last three years. For either Remain or Leave to say the results show a significant move in their favour is spinning things into the numbers which simply aren't there IMO....

[1 AKY]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8934451.html