[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

Nope. Just stating your example was crap has he had succeeded but then thrown it away unless we are to believe the two previous posters who seem to have a working knowledge of police procedures have just pulled the article apart. There is also the unfair demotion at his bank.

Do you want to try another example?

No, whether it’s a good example or bad example is irrelevant. Your claim that race never affects people’s prospects is garbage. You even put your own spin on the Lammy Review and dismissed it out of hand, so not much point in conversing with you.

On the one hand you say that no one has their prospects held back by their race, yet on the other you accept that individuals hold racist views. What do you think these individuals do? Do you think they’re all unemployed? Some of them will own businesses, some will manage people, some will work in the private sector, some in the public sector, some will work in the emergency services etc etc.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by mcoops

I think that's ok. But for other less enlightened souls, it's a very short step from 'minorities can be successful and help themselves to become so', to 'there isn't a problem and they all just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, because some other people managed it'.

Agreed. However, at the other end of the less enlightened spectrum there may also be those who want to attribute all of the problems experienced by an ethnic community to racism and think there's nothing the group needs to do to help address things. IMO that would also be wrong, there still needs to be the right attitude and work ethic to make the most of opportunities (and I think it's because they have those things that the Sikh community does so well ).

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

Nope. Just stating your example was crap has he had succeeded but then thrown it away unless we are to believe the two previous posters who seem to have a working knowledge of police procedures have just pulled the article apart. There is also the unfair demotion at his bank.

Do you want to try another example?

I respect the views of those who have knowledge of police procedures and I have read what they wrote. But I also listened to the former Metropolitan Police Chief Superintendent who gave his views to Channel 4 on it as well. I’m guessing he’s fairly well qualified too. Also, the Met themselves said in response to Channel 4 that they couldn’t respond on the specifics, but they often acted on intelligence from within the community and they are reviewing this so the public still had faith in their methods.

So whilst I appear to be in the minority on BMW car forum, it doesn’t seem very clear cut that he was a “wrong un” that just happened to get away with it. And whilst the interview has a bit of sensationalism in it, overall, when all parts are watched and considered, the guy and his family come across pretty sincerely.

I have no idea why one poster thinks being asked how he affords his things is so laughable. Black people in nice cars are pulled over all the time because they assume they can’t afford it. In my entire driving life of 30 plus years, I’ve been pulled maybe 5 times. I know someone that gets pulled that many times every year. So just 30 times more often than me.

No one is saying that race or racism is to blame for everything bad or unjust that happens to ethnic minorities. But your insistence that it doesn’t effect them at all I find unbelievable.

[Richard52]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

Irrelevant post. What proportion of those 80,000 are from minorities?

“26% of the prison population, 22,683 people, are from a minority ethnic group.

If our prison population reflected the make-up of England and Wale s, we would have over 9,000 fewer people in prison—the equivalent of 12 average-sized prisons.

The economic cost of black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) over-representation in our prison system is estimated to be £234 million a year.

Analysis conducted for the Lammy Review found a clear direct association between ethnic group and the odds of receiving a custodial sentence. With black people 53%, Asian 55%, and other ethnic groups 81% more likely to be sent to prison for an indictable offence at the Crown Court, even when factoring in higher not-guilty plea rates.

Black men are 26% more likely than white men to be remanded in custody. They are also nearly 60% more likely to plead not guilty.”

A big problem with the Lammy Review , is Lammy himself.

He is an MP of a constituency , with a very large Afro Carribbean population. Obviously he would not blame that community for racial disparities in the crime stats. He's not going to say these differences are due to the high numbers, in that group, of single parents families, different attitudes towards the use of drugs , the failure to stay in education cultural attitudes towards authority or the disproportionate number of its children in care. It's a lot easier for him to say racism.

In other words, just because there are racial differences in stats doesn't mean it's necessarily due to racism.

It's also a shame that you didn't mention that black defendants are more likely to be acquitted than white defendants in jury trials . Nor did you cite the Crime Survey England + Wales ( much more objective than Lammy) survey where people were asked if they would be treated fairly by the criminal justice system. Yes said 64 % of white people , yes said 71% of all non white people ( though black people it's 62%) .

What you are also saying, is that white criminals are treated more lenitely than non white criminals . So to balance this unfairness out you could see more white criminals put in prison. Personally I would rather see this , than release non white prisoners just because they are none white.

By way of reminder criminals often commit horrendous crime of violence , sex attacks or take your property - personally my heart doesn't bleed for them , whatever their colour.

Finally , I said , generally people's lives weren't blighted by racism. Talking about the public , rather than prisoners/ criminals, you didn't mention the stats for money earned . Well for pay by hour it's as follows (1) Chinese (2) Indians (3) Mixed Raced (4) White , then it's Black /Bangladeshes (can't remember the exact order here.) . Whites being racially discriminate against here , no , the differences here are caused by multi non racial factors. You see , life is not a stark black or white issue.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Richard52

A big problem with the Lammy Review , is Lammy himself.

He is an MP of a constituency , with a very large Afro Carribbean population. Obviously he would not blame that community for racial disparities in the crime stats. He's not going to say these differences are due to the high numbers, in that group, of single parents families, different attitudes towards the use of drugs , the failure to stay in education cultural attitudes towards authority or the disproportionate number of its children in care. It's a lot easier for him to say racism.

In other words, just because there are racial differences in stats doesn't mean it's necessarily due to racism.

It's also a shame that you didn't mention that black defendants are more likely to be acquitted than white defendants in jury trials . Nor did you cite the Crime Survey England + Wales ( much more objective than Lammy) survey where people were asked if they would be treated fairly by the criminal justice system. Yes said 64 % of white people , yes said 71% of all non white people ( though black people it's 62%) .

What you are also saying, is that white criminals are treated more lenitely than non white criminals . So to balance this unfairness out you could see more white criminals put in prison. Personally I would rather see this , than release non white prisoners just because they are none white.

By way of reminder criminals often commit horrendous crime of violence , sex attacks or take your property - personally my heart doesn't bleed for them , whatever their colour.

Finally , I said , generally people's lives weren't blighted by racism. Talking about the public , rather than prisoners/ criminals, you didn't mention the stats for money earned . Well for pay by hour it's as follows (1) Chinese (2) Indians (3) Mixed Raced (4) White , then it's Black /Bangladeshes (can't remember the exact order here.) . Whites being racially discriminate against here , no , the differences here are caused by multi non racial factors. You see , life is not a stark black or white issue.

No one has said it’s a stark black and white issue. What I personally didn’t like is a forum full of white men telling hundreds of thousands of people that their experiences are wrong and they must be mistaken.

[JR1664]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I have no idea why one poster thinks being asked how he affords his things is so laughable. Black people in nice cars are pulled over all the time because they assume they can’t afford it. In my entire driving life of 30 plus years, I’ve been pulled maybe 5 times. I know someone that gets pulled that many times every year. So just 30 times more often than me.

The laughable bit was him being asked at the scene about what he can and cannot afford after he had been arrested for proceeds of crime act offences and prior to his arrival at a Police station. That's a blatant breach of PACE unless its an 'urgent interview', which it wasn't. Its just so far fetched but totally fits the 'race card 'narrative his solicitor is pursuing. I can understand you not having a grasp of the legislation, just don't believe everything you read in the press.

Legislation aside walk down any London street and you will see many black or Asian people driving expensive cars even in less affluent areas. Likewise Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds.

The assumption by this guy (and you) that Police Officers think that people from BAME backgrounds cannot afford nice cars, watches or homes is quite frankly insulting and just so stereotypical.

[Craig-SM]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

No, whether it’s a good example or bad example is irrelevant. Your claim that race never affects people’s prospects is garbage. You even put your own spin on the Lammy Review and dismissed it out of hand, so not much point in conversing with you.

On the one hand you say that no one has their prospects held back by their race, yet on the other you accept that individuals hold racist views. What do you think these individuals do? Do you think they’re all unemployed? Some of them will own businesses, some will manage people, some will work in the private sector, some in the public sector, some will work in the emergency services etc etc.

Can't remember mentioning David Lammy before or his report so do please quote what I had said if you are accusing me of something I supposedly said.

Again I have never said that race doesn't affect someones prospect with certain employers who hold racist views but these are a minority and it is not systematic as you had stated and supposed to have been providing an example of. Instead you gave an example of someone becoming a bank manager on £72k salary, which disproves your claims.

As for your comments on the claim for racial profiling and the former Metropolitan Police Chief Superintendent comments only confirm those already expressed by police members on this forum and do nothing to prove your claim that the police had been racist in the stop unless you are now changing your tune again.

[TouringPleb]

Originally Posted by JR1664

The laughable bit was him being asked at the scene about what he can and cannot afford after he had been arrested for proceeds of crime act offences and prior to his arrival at a Police station. That's a blatant breach of PACE unless its an 'urgent interview', which it wasn't. Its just so far fetched but totally fits the 'race card 'narrative his solicitor is pursuing. I can understand you not having a grasp of the legislation, just don't believe everything you read in the press.

Legislation aside walk down any London street and you will see many black or Asian people driving expensive cars even in less affluent areas. Likewise Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds.

The assumption by this guy (and you) that Police Officers think that people from BAME backgrounds cannot afford nice cars, watches or homes is quite frankly insulting and just so stereotypical.

If I see young black guys in flash cars I just assume it's on finance.

Young Asian guys in flash cars are either rented or again financed as they live at home and don't pay anything to their parents.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

Can't remember mentioning David Lammy before or his report so do please quote what I had said if you are accusing me of something I supposedly said.

Again I have never said that race doesn't affect someones prospect with certain employers who hold racist views but these are a minority and it is not systematic as you had stated and supposed to have been providing an example of. Instead you gave an example of someone becoming a bank manager on £72k salary, which disproves your claims.

As for your comments on the claim for racial profiling and the former Metropolitan Police Chief Superintendent comments only confirm those already expressed by police members on this forum and do nothing to prove your claim that the police had been racist in the stop unless you are now changing your tune again.

You pulled apart the Lammy Review I quoted on here. It’s not my fault you didn’t know what it was. Look back at your own posts, not my job to tell you where you posted.

I have never said that it’s systemic. I said what’s the difference between systemic, or individuals doing it, to the people who suffer? If an individual that works for the state has racist views, it is still a problem the state needs to tackle, even if racism is not an actual policy, which of course it isn’t and I never said it was.

You then said directly that people do not have their careers held back due to racism and it was all to do with where they lived and their relative wealth.

I then said through frustration that denying racism exists was like denying the Holocaust happened. You took great offence at that.

But, when someone else compared protesters against racism to Nazi’s protesting against Jews, you were silent. And it was very much a thread you were involved in. And not even a, “hang on mate, bit harsh that”.

You pull me because you think I’m exaggerating the effects of racism, but when people go too far the other way you don’t say anything.

[Richard52]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

You pulled apart the Lammy Review I quoted on here. It’s not my fault you didn’t know what it was. Look back at your own posts, not my job to tell you where you posted.

I have never said that it’s systemic. I said what’s the difference between systemic, or individuals doing it, to the people who suffer? If an individual that works for the state has racist views, it is still a problem the state needs to tackle, even if racism is not an actual policy, which of course it isn’t and I never said it was.

You then said directly that people do not have their careers held back due to racism and it was all to do with where they lived and their relative wealth.

I then said through frustration that denying racism exists was like denying the Holocaust happened. You took great offence at that.

But, when someone else compared protesters against racism to Nazi’s protesting against Jews, you were silent. And it was very much a thread you were involved in. And not even a, “hang on mate, bit harsh that”.

You pull me because you think I’m exaggerating the effects of racism, but when people go too far the other way you don’t say anything.

It was me that critiqued , Lammy's report.

You and me, are not actually that far apart . We seem to agree that the state is not racist but some individuals employed by it will commit acts of racial discrimination. If found to have done so , their employment by the state will be in jeopardy.

To be fair to the state , it's spent a considerable amount of time and money , to combat racism and racial discrimination . I am referring to various pieces of legislation, the Human Rights Commission , the funding of many anti-racist organisations , the funding of expensive inquires and capital expenditure in certain areas of the country.

Which leaves us where I came in , the state is not racisit, but some individuals commit acts of racial discrimination. We'll just have to disagree how much that actually blights people's lives overall.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Richard52

It was me that critiqued , Lammy's report.

You and me, are not actually that far apart . We seem to agree that the state is not racist but some individuals employed by it will commit acts of racial discrimination. If found to have done so , their employment by the state will be in jeopardy.

To be fair to the state , it's spent a considerable amount of time and money , to combat racism and racial discrimination . I am referring to various pieces of legislation, the Human Rights Commission , the funding of many anti-racist organisations , the funding of expensive inquires and capital expenditure in certain areas of the country.

Which leaves us where I came in , the state is not racisit, but some individuals commit acts of racial discrimination. We'll just have to disagree how much that actually blights people's lives overall.

That we will. I’m going with the opinions of those I know whose lives it has affected. Not every consequence and impact on life can be measured either.

A close friend of mine is black, she went to to a VERY white school, in a very white town. She was the only black person in her year and there were only two in the entire school.

The bullying and name calling can still affect her now when she bumps into people who did it, it doesn’t take long for the feelings and hurt to show. And this is from a very strong woman, who works full time and is also a magistrate. She is not prone to drama or being over emotional in other circumstances, far from it in fact.

And you directly critiqued Lammy’s report, Craig did it as well though, quoting one of my posts that he wasn’t aware was from the Lammy report.

[Craig-SM]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

And you directly critiqued Lammy’s report, Craig did it as well though, quoting one of my posts that he wasn’t aware was from the Lammy report.

Quack, quack, whoops

Yet again you’ve been telling porky pies. Richard had responded to post not myself

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=289

I had responded to an earlier post of yours after Richard had responded to your post about the Lammy report.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=284
This was about BAME being economically poorer and I had asked you to provide an example of this, which you failed to do until you scored a home goal with your bank manager.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=286

Getting nowhere with your argument you shoe horned remand and custody statistics but failed to actually provide any when requested
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=295
I responded with the Department of Justice figures for custody figures by crime. These dictated that if a person committed a serious crime they would be imprisoned or held in custody.

As you can see I've never responded to the Lammy report and you haven’t to myself. It would be helpful if you stopped lying about what a person has or hasn’t said when the argument isn’t going your way

Out of interest how do you interpret this graph? It relates between white and BAME convictions. I have left off the source of the graph and the key to which bar represents which group.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

Quack, quack, whoops

Yet again you’ve been telling porky pies. Richard had responded to post not myself

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=289

I had responded to an earlier post of yours after Richard had responded to your post about the Lammy report.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=284
This was about BAME being economically poorer and I had asked you to provide an example of this, which you failed to do until you scored a home goal with your bank manager.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=286

Getting nowhere with your argument you shoe horned remand and custody statistics but failed to actually provide any when requested
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=295
I responded with the Department of Justice figures for custody figures by crime. These dictated that if a person committed a serious crime they would be imprisoned or held in custody.

As you can see I've never responded to the Lammy report and you haven’t to myself. It would be helpful if you stopped lying about what a person has or hasn’t said when the argument isn’t going your way

Out of interest how do you interpret this graph? It relates between white and BAME convictions. I have left off the source of the graph and the key to which bar represents which group.

The statistics you responded to and added your own speculation to were from the Lammy Report clever dick.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

Quack, quack, whoops

Yet again you’ve been telling porky pies. Richard had responded to post not myself

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=289

I had responded to an earlier post of yours after Richard had responded to your post about the Lammy report.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=284
This was about BAME being economically poorer and I had asked you to provide an example of this, which you failed to do until you scored a home goal with your bank manager.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=286

Getting nowhere with your argument you shoe horned remand and custody statistics but failed to actually provide any when requested
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=295
I responded with the Department of Justice figures for custody figures by crime. These dictated that if a person committed a serious crime they would be imprisoned or held in custody.

As you can see I've never responded to the Lammy report and you haven’t to myself. It would be helpful if you stopped lying about what a person has or hasn’t said when the argument isn’t going your way

Out of interest how do you interpret this graph? It relates between white and BAME convictions. I have left off the source of the graph and the key to which bar represents which group.

At some point you’ll prove that racism doesn’t exist at all. Go you. Don’t forget to tell the millions of people across the world that “think” they’ve experienced it that they were wrong.

[Craig-SM]

The statistics you provided
“ 26% of the prison population, 22,683 people, are from a minority ethnic group.

If our prison population reflected the make-up of England and Wale s, we would have over 9,000 fewer people in prison—the equivalent of 12 average-sized prisons.

The economic cost of black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) over-representation in our prison system is estimated to be £234 million a year.“
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=289

isn’t even from the Lammy report. It’s from the Prison Reform Trust who then go on to quote a statement from the Lammy report

“ Analysis conducted for the Lammy Review found a clear direct association between ethnic group and the odds of receiving a custodial sentence. With black people 53%, Asian 55%, and other ethnic groups 81% more likely to be sent to prison for an indictable offence at the Crown Court, even when factoring in higher not-guilty plea rates.”

You never quoted the Lammy report or any figure from it but the Prison Reform Trust, which is what I had responded to but again didn’t dispute. Only put into context that violent crimes get custodial sentences and linked this to the source of the figures I provided from the Department of Justice.

I am not at fault for you being unable to quote statistics from the author correctly or that you can’t supply a source when asked. However, it is your fault that you lied about what I said as you’re too ignorant to have checked what you were quoting.

Would you like a copy of the Lammy report before you make any further stupid quotes about who said what?

Now I’m bored of having to correct you with links to what I’ve said so please enclose a quote before making an idiot of yourself n the future

[Craig-SM]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

At some point you’ll prove that racism doesn’t exist at all. Go you. Don’t forget to tell the millions of people across the world that “think” they’ve experienced it that they were wrong.

Again never said racism doesn’t exist or you can quote me otherwise or it is just another lie to add to the many others you’ve posted.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

Again never said racism doesn’t exist or you can quote me otherwise or it is just another lie to add to the many others you’ve posted.

You have said quite clearly that no one has their careers or prospects affected by their race. Numerous times.

[Craig-SM]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

You have said quite clearly that no one has their careers or prospects affected by their race. Numerous times.

That doesn’t deny racism as you stated. I have argued that social economic backgrounds hinder a person prospects more than the colour of their skin, which isn’t what you’ve just stated
You have posted how a black person became a bank manager on a salary of £72k, which contradicts your claim.

Please quote me as stating anything to the contrary.

[JR1664]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

You have posted how a black person became a bank manager on a salary of £72k, which contradicts your claim.

Don't forget the black 'close friend' who became a magistrate. Not sure how that could ever happen in a country so institutionally racist.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

That doesn’t deny racism as you stated. I have argued that social economic backgrounds hinder a person prospects more than the colour of their skin, which isn’t what you’ve just stated
You have posted how a black person became a bank manager on a salary of £72k, which contradicts your claim.

Please quote me as stating anything to the contrary.

Nice cherry picking of the facts. I didn’t say that people ethnic minorities couldn’t get good jobs. I said they could be held back by the colour of his skin in some cases. There is a reasonable chance in this case that this got him demoted and ruined his career. The former Chief Superintendent interviewed thought there was a good chance.

But you choose to focus on the fact that he got a good job in the first place, like that is reward enough. Well done him.

Let’s just say we have different views, don’t really have much time for each other, and let’s leave this repetitive circular conversation that is going absolutely nowhere.

[Craig-SM]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

Nice cherry picking of the facts. I didn’t say that people ethnic minorities couldn’t get good jobs. I said they could be held back by the colour of his skin in some cases. There is a reasonable chance in this case that this got him demoted and ruined his career. The former Chief Superintendent interviewed thought there was a good chance.

But you choose to focus on the fact that he got a good job in the first place, like that is reward enough. Well done him.

Let’s just say we have different views, don’t really have much time for each other, and let’s leave this repetitive circular conversation that is going absolutely nowhere.

No cherry picking required. You supplied the story and who knows why he was demoted at work but there must be reason for it. The former chief superintendent comments without him being privy to the details of the investigation are worth as much as yours, sweet FA.

As just pointed you highlighted other BAME people who have done well. It’s like you’re providing the stick to beat you with. Seems an odd way of proving your argument.

Our views aren’t the reason why we’re this conversation between you and I is going round in circles. It’s because your argument is weak, your facts are misquoted and But mostly because you resort to lying about a person and then can’t stop rather than admit your error.

Mark Twain said “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” I should heed his advice as you’ve really got the experience on me but I really do like highlighting your stupidity

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by Craig-SM

Mark Twain said “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” I should heed his advice as you’ve really got the experience on me but I really do like highlighting your stupidity

This^