[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by 300hp

In addition to what 335boy said,

335i weighs 3710. 335i rwd weighs about 3600lbs. That's what's on the BMW website under specifications for the auto. Difference of 110lbs which as you said is the same weight as a tank of gas.

If you're going to round, at least round fairly. I'll post the proof to save everyone the time:



That's 155 lbs different.

Originally Posted by 300hp

Left is xdrive right is rwd

5.1s. 7.6s



Come on man, seriously you have to use something a little more established than a random spreadsheet

It's from the same source that's linked above. It's common sense that the 328 doesn't put down enough power to take advantage of xDrive for performance purposes.

Originally Posted by rikwynnpa

Actually it does. I drive a manual. The GC doesnt offer it. An F30 x drive 335 manual weighs less than a 335 GC.

I was comparing apples to apples. You're wanting to compare a MT vs an AT. The 335 xDrive MT is a going to obviously weigh less than the 435 GC, which doesn't offer an AT.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

If you're going to round, at least round fairly. I'll post the proof to save everyone the time:



That's 155 lbs different.

It's from the same source that's linked above. It's common sense that the 328 doesn't put down enough power to take advantage of xDrive for performance purposes.

I was comparing apples to apples. You're wanting to compare a MT vs an AT. The 335 xDrive MT is a going to obviously weigh less than the 435 GC, which doesn't offer an AT.

3710lbs 335i xdrive auto
3600lbs 335i rwd auto

I had already said I am comparing autos not sure why you are trying to compare auto vs manual.

It's a tank of gas difference in weight for those two. There is nothing more to it

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I ran a ski shop for 20+ years, so I was in a situation where no matter how bad it was I had to get to the store. That meant handling a five mile stretch of a steep secondary road. I did it with FWD with all seasons, four different cars over the years, never got stuck once. I never felt the need for snows, so I never bothered with them. My wife never had to make that drive, but she always needed snows on her cars just to get around town. So what you have is no more important than knowing how to use it. Being aware that most people don't know how to drive in snow is why I no longer go out when I don't have to, and as I now work from home that's not very often.

Perfect answer. No need to go out if you don't have to. And +1 on FWD on all seasons, my 2004 Elantra had the same set up and we did just fine back then. Awd with all seasons is perfectly fine and rwd needs winters. That's all there is to this. Awd and winters is obviously the number one set up

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by 300hp

3710lbs 335i xdrive auto
3600lbs 335i rwd auto

I had already said I am comparing autos not sure why you are trying to compare auto vs manual.

It's a tank of gas difference in weight for those two. There is nothing more to it

I took a picture of the website.

It's stupid to argue about, but at least admit when you're wrong.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

I took a picture of the website.

It's stupid to argue about, but at least admit when you're wrong.

I will admit that I was wrong since I thought you were mixing up autos and manuals. (Had no idea the auto trans only adds 20lbs, that's impressive). I stand corrected but having said that.

16 gallons converted to lbs is 133lbs.

So we are here:
Xdrive weight penalty on manuals 150lbs (the one you prefer)
Xdrive weight penalty on autos 110lbs (the one I prefer)
Weight of a tank of gas 133lbs.

My point still remains IMO, it's about a tank of gas worth of weight difference no matter which one you are looking at

[Blubaron79]

Originally Posted by 300hp

I will admit that I was wrong since I thought you were mixing up autos and manuals. (Had no idea the auto trans only adds 20lbs, that's impressive). I stand corrected but having said that.

16 gallons converted to lbs is 133lbs.

So we are here:
Xdrive weight penalty on manuals 150lbs (the one you prefer)
Xdrive weight penalty on autos 110lbs (the one I prefer)
Weight of a tank of gas 133lbs.

My point still remains IMO, it's about a tank of gas worth of weight difference no matter which one you are looking at

And a 30 lb. penalty for the GC.

[Polo08816]

Here's a video of my 2014 F30 335i M Sport RWD with Michelin X-Ice Xi3 winter tires going up 4-6" of unplowed/untreated heavy wet snow. This snow was originally 8-12" of powder but rain started coming down in the morning and it became very heavy snow.

You can see how the tracks coming up the incline never touched the pavement and yet there was no wheel spin.

Looks like RWD + snow tires is sufficient. They say that videos/pictures are worth a thousand words.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Here's a video of my 2014 F30 335i M Sport RWD with Michelin X-Ice Xi3 winter tires going up 4-6" of unplowed/untreated heavy wet snow. This snow was originally 8-12" of powder but rain started coming down in the morning and it became very heavy snow.

You can see how the tracks coming up the incline never touched the pavement and yet there was no wheel spin.

Looks like RWD + snow tires is sufficient. They say that videos/pictures are worth a thousand words.

http://<div class="youtube-playerCon.../iframe></div>" rel="" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://<div class="y...ame></div></a>" rel="" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://<a href="http...</div></a></a>

Whatever rwd can achieve in the snow, xdrive will always be a notch above with similar tires, no doubt

[bahasad]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Here's a video of my 2014 F30 335i M Sport RWD with Michelin X-Ice Xi3 winter tires going up 4-6" of unplowed/untreated heavy wet snow. This snow was originally 8-12" of powder but rain started coming down in the morning and it became very heavy snow.

You can see how the tracks coming up the incline never touched the pavement and yet there was no wheel spin.

Looks like RWD + snow tires is sufficient. They say that videos/pictures are worth a thousand words.

Pretty impressive. Might just go back to RWD for my next one, but I have no complaints with xdrive.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Whatever rwd can achieve in the snow, xdrive will always be a notch above with similar tires, no doubt

If there is no wheel spin with RWD, then AWD would not offer me any advantage.

Also, if I wanted or needed AWD, I would have bought an Audi S4 over a 335i xDrive.

The 335i xDrive is a compromise in performance (handling) compared to the RWD 335i. For those days when there's snow... well... the video clearly shows that RWD + studless snow tires will suffice. If I needed performance + the forward traction of AWD, then I prefer the Audi S4 with its Torsen center differential and torque vectoring rear differential.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...-bimmer-page-4

Before you start cranking out toxic verbiage about our selection process, listen to our side of it. Audi’s competitive target for this S4 is BMW’s 335i xDrive (the all-wheel-drive variant). Don’t we, by the natural laws of the universe, have to compare the AWD S4 with BMW’s AWD version of the 335i, the so-called xDrive?

We don’t. We think the 335i in rear-drive mode is the more compelling performance package. So why penalize the BMW just because the S4 only comes in all-wheel drive? The rear-drive 335i is roughly 200 pounds lighter and has better weight distribution: 50.8 percent over the front axle versus 52.1 for the AWD xDrive. When the rear-drive BMW includes the Sport package, it rides an inch closer to the ground than the xDrive, lowering the center of gravity, which improves handling and reduces weight transfer. But add that Sport package to an xDrive, and you don’t get the lowered, sport-tuned suspension.

We say this knowing the 335i xDrive is, nonetheless, a little quicker off the line, thanks to the added grip of all four wheels delivering power to the tarmac. With a durability-testing redline clutch drop, the xDrive hits 60 mph in 4.7 seconds and breaks the quarter-mile mark in 13.4, bettering the rear-drive car by 0.2 second in both instances. But if you’re still going at it at 120 mph, the rear-drive car squeaks ahead by 0.4 second at 18.0. Although the xDrive may be a hair quicker in the acceleration categories that count, the additional weight, extra body roll, and inferior weight balance of a four-wheel-drive 335i hinder the overall performance. So that is why we went with the rear-drive 335i. Plus, the rear-driver is $2000 cheaper.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

If there is no wheel spin with RWD, then AWD would not offer me any advantage.

Also, if I wanted or needed AWD, I would have bought an Audi S4 over a 335i xDrive.

The 335i xDrive is a compromise in performance (handling) compared to the RWD 335i. For those days when there's snow... well... the video clearly shows that RWD + studless snow tires will suffice. If I needed performance + the forward traction of AWD, then I prefer the Audi S4 with its Torsen center differential and torque vectoring rear differential.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...-bimmer-page-4" rel="" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.caranddri...mer-page-4</a>" rel="" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://<a href="http...page-4</a></a>

Completely agree, rwd + snows is adequate just like AWD + all seasons is adequate.

As far as the S4 is concerned

http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/se..._sport_sedans/


And as far as the rwd is concerned

http://m.caranddriver.com/comparison...omparison-test

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...-65-3-roa1013/

I think I will settle for the king of rwd compacts if I wanted rwd, the IS350 Fsport
However I prefer the superior traction of all 4 tires

We all have our preferences and what matters is we are happy with where we end up

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Completely agree, rwd + snows is adequate just like AWD + all seasons is adequate.

As far as the S4 is concerned

http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/se..._sport_sedans/


And as far as the rwd is concerned

http://m.caranddriver.com/comparison...omparison-test

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...-65-3-roa1013/

I think I will settle for the king of rwd compacts if I wanted rwd, the IS350 Fsport
However I prefer the superior traction of all 4 tires

We all have our preferences and what matters is we are happy with where we end up

No. We've been through this over and over already.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

No. We've been through this over and over already.

See post 1 of this thread. You are doing just fine on your setup, OP is doing just fine on his setup. We all live happily ever after

[ft1330]

Got a loaner X1 35i xdrive while my 335i non-xdrive is being fixed at the dealership. I hate the X1, but man the snow storm was a blast! It was fitted with all-seasons but I found myself taking the X1 out multiple times just for fun. 6 inches of unplowed and packed snow and it performed like a champ! Of course lateral traction and braking were badly affected by lack of snow tires. With winter rubber, this car would be absolute killer in the snow. But it was still a blast & safe with the all-seasons.

I got stuck in snow with my 335i and POS Bridgestone all-seasons before, and that X1 was a refreshing change.

Definitely looking forward to fitting some PA4 on the 335i next year and see what happens...

[ft1330]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Here's a video of my 2014 F30 335i M Sport RWD with Michelin X-Ice Xi3 winter tires going up 4-6" of unplowed/untreated heavy wet snow. This snow was originally 8-12" of powder but rain started coming down in the morning and it became very heavy snow.

You can see how the tracks coming up the incline never touched the pavement and yet there was no wheel spin.

Looks like RWD + snow tires is sufficient. They say that videos/pictures are worth a thousand words.

Thx for the vid. Not bad but to be honest that seemed a little slow going up. An AWD on A/S tires would go 3 times as fast. But the point is to get through the snow and you did that perfectly well, regardless of speed.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Here's a video of my 2014 F30 335i M Sport RWD with Michelin X-Ice Xi3 winter tires going up 4-6" of unplowed/untreated heavy wet snow...
Looks like RWD + snow tires is sufficient.

Sufficient for a 20% grade. My driveway is 40%, as are many roads in my neck of the woods. 50% isn't common, but not unheard of either. 30% is average. 20% doesn't even qualify as a hill.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Sufficient for a 20% grade. My driveway is 40%, as are many roads in my neck of the woods. 50% isn't common, but not unheard of either. 30% is average. 20% doesn't even qualify as a hill.

I'm going to call BS on that. The max grade an optimally configured Humvee is rated to climb is 60% and that's under perfect conditions with perfect traction with the transfer case in LOW.

You're telling me that AWD in a 335i xDrive is going to get you up your driveway in deep snow at a 40% grade?

In any event, the only way to not give up dry performance and still have an excellent AWD system is to go with the Audi S4.


I did some additional Google Searching. Here's the world's steepest residential street: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street It's about a 35% grade. You might want to take a picture and submit it of your driveway.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

No. We've been through this over and over already.

He doesnt get it. Doesnt understand that stopping is important and awd doesnt help that.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

He doesnt get it. Doesnt understand that stopping is important and awd doesnt help that.

Reminds me of the anti-vaccination crowd, except with car enthusiasts.

http://avwos.thespudd.com/im-an-anti...is-all-i-need/

Guys, I wanted to let you know about a personal decision I recently made. I don’t really feel like discussing it, but I want to put my position out there. Please be respectful. This is a really long post, but please read the whole thing.

I’m taking the brakes off my car. This isn’t a rash decision, so please listen up.

A few weeks ago I saw a car accident – two people went through an intersection at the same time. Both slammed on their brakes at the same time and collided. Fortunately no one was seriously injured.

But then it occurred to me – if they had just gone through the intersection, they wouldn’t have collided. The brakes CAUSED the accident!

So, I decided to do my own research and what I found was *staggering*: Hundreds of people every year are seriously injured by unnecessary braking. One time, I was driving in the snow and I just lightly tapped by brakes and it caused my car to COMPLETELY LOSE CONTROL. My brakes could have very easily gotten me killed. Even more astoundingly is how often brake pads will warp and distort rotors, causing bumpy rides and squeaky wheels.

And you know what? I also found that decades ago brakes weren’t even used! People would control their vehicle’s speed with downshifting and engine braking. Maybe it’s just coincidence, but back when engine braking was used there were almost no automotive fatalities. There were NEVER brake caused car accidents.

After doing some more digging, I found a nefarious plot – Mechanics: The very people who we trust to work on and care for our cars – get PAID to install and change brakes! You might THINK they care about our safety, or our cars – but they’re just in it for the $49.99 brake pad installations.

So I talked to my Mechanic about taking the brakes off my car and I was disgusted by how poorly he treated me. He accused me of being ignorant, when I was the one that looked up how much rotational torque brakes can put on your rotors. He didn’t even know how much torque a rotor can take before being warped!!! He said “rotors are designed to be compressed, that it isn’t actually a problem” just completely dismissing me.

Then he had the NERVE to say that my personal choice had consequences, that I would affect everyone around me. Well I’ve had it with him, I’m looking for a new mechanic. The problem is that so many mechanics are bought and paid by the automotive industry that ALL of them are insistent about my car having brakes. Most of them won’t even look at my car for other reasons, saying that a brakeless car could cause damage to their shop and other cars. What a bunch of bullshit, they just don’t like those who believe in alternative braking techniques.

Now of course big government is getting involved, saying that I *MUST* have brakes. That this isn’t just about me, and that I could hurt people. What happened to personal freedom? What happened to liberty?

So all I’m saying is, do your research. Don’t just listen to the NTSB and big automotive. I made a personal decision for my family, we just said no to brakes. We’ll be using natural remedies like Gravity, and putting our feet on the ground to stop. After all, if that was good enough for me when I was on my bike as a kid, it’s good enough for my children in my car.
- See more at: http://avwos.thespudd.com/im-an-anti....mGy4C5Cb.dpuf

[WilliCO]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Perfect answer. No need to go out if you don't have to. And +1 on FWD on all seasons, my 2004 Elantra had the same set up and we did just fine back then. Awd with all seasons is perfectly fine and rwd needs winters. That's all there is to this. Awd and winters is obviously the number one set up

95% of driving safety on snow and ice comes from going slow, anticipating stops and leaving plenty of room, making no sudden changes in direction, and keeping decent tread on your tires.

AWD and snow tires each provide a different kind of incremental benefit. Neither keeps people out of the ditch when they drive their cars in the snow the way they see in the commercials.

[Thumper333]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsche

I refuse to pay $1000 on snow tires for an AWD car that I'm leasing for 3 years or possibly less. I'm planning on my next car being RWD with summer's. I will spend the extra money for snow's on that.

That is your choice, however that does not change reality. I will pay more for AWD+snow tires and I will have better grip and snow performance than your RWD with snow tires.

That is like me buying a 4K TV and Blu Ray player and then posting on a Hi-Def forum complaining that my picture quality is crap...........while using 30 gauge RCA cables to connect everything and when pointed out that better cables will yield better quality, complaining that I will NOT buy better cables because I'll just replace the TV in a few year.

Originally Posted by dwalls90

I agree.

But the point of my argument is that a set of snow tires will run you $800 at most (and these are for a SOLID set of snow tires, they can probably be had for $600 or less). xDrive costs $3,500 on the 328, which is significantly more expensive than a set of snow tires. Not to mention, xDrive is less efficient, a tad slower, and requires DHP if you want any semblance of sport sedan handling. You're now looking at several thousand dollars spent that may not be necessary.

You muddy the waters here, arguing about xDrive performance on dry ground when discussing benefits in snowy conditions. Which are we discussing, drag racing or snow traction? LOL

You know, Airbags, crash sensors, and seatbelts are expensive and add weight. Yet all of those things serve a purpose and a benefit.

So does AWD. Anyone suggesting that RWD with snow tires will perform EXACTLY the same as an AWD with snow tires obviously has no real world comparison data or experience. It's a personal choice if the costs you laid out are worth the benefits, however to claim there are no benefits is illogical. Personally I am happy to pay extra for a vehicle that will get me through bad weather better than the cheaper car. If you feel different that is your choice obviously, and if you would rather save money (or don't deal with enough snow to care much) that's cool. But do not argue that based on your personal preference reality is somehow changed.

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Again, you're correct IF you're saying it gives you superior FORWARD traction. AWD does not have any advantages over a RWD car in braking or lateral grip.

So yes, in most cases, more FORWARD traction.

That is incorrect, AWD most certainly helps with lateral grip AND braking, that is if you know how to drive an AWD car. Using the brakes 100% to stop in the slush and snow will end in the same result; ABS locks up as it can not work in those conditions. Brakes are DESIGNED to stop wheels, in low/zero traction situations ABS simply thinks the car has stopped.

Engine braking does NOT stop wheels, it only slows them (short of stalling or turning off the engine LOL). Engine braking is the proper way to slow a vehicle in poor conditions especially snow, that goes for any car; FWD/RWD/AWD. The difference is with a RWD car engine braking only works on the rear axle. When slowing down where does weight go? To the front which means reduction in slowing force.

And none of that actually gets into the power vectoring of AWD which transfers power from slipping wheels to gripping wheels. Meaning when the RWD looses rear traction on a turn the back end swings out and the front wheels just sit back and laugh. On an AWD the front wheels take up the slack, grip and pull the car straight until the rear wheels get a purchase. And it can actually apply power to the outer front AND rear wheel on cornering, another thing RWD can not do.

Originally Posted by alex2364

For those of you saying AWD is superior in the dry compared to RWD... http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...-bimmer-page-4

I know it's old and talks about the E90 but everything still applies.

Actually, nothing applies there, articles such as that rely on their bias of what "feels" good and yes, RWD with it's oversteer issues "feels" great and in the hands of a skilled driver can work just fine. however, most people are NOT skilled professional drivers that know the exact way to 'steer' with the rear power oversteer.

In a head to head test on a road course, Top Gear found that the AWD 911 was faster than the RWD 911. Their conclusion was the same, RWD is more fun and they liked it better, even though lap times proved the AWD was faster.

The caveat is that not all AWD systems are the same, design plays a hand in how it performs in a performance situation. In poor weather situations AWD will win everytime.

If you can sort past all the biased articles trying to discredit AWD, past the people racing a 4WD (not the same as an AWD) against a RWD in a straight line, and almost certainly using a purposefully ham footed driver. Find if you can a true comparison using a slalom or road course in the snow, the AWD will be faster and arrive with fewer caved in panels than the RWD.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Thumper333

That is incorrect, AWD most certainly helps with lateral grip AND braking, that is if you know how to drive an AWD car. Using the brakes 100% to stop in the slush and snow will end in the same result; ABS locks up as it can not work in those conditions. Brakes are DESIGNED to stop wheels, in low/zero traction situations ABS simply thinks the car has stopped.

Engine braking does NOT stop wheels, it only slows them (short of stalling or turning off the engine LOL). Engine braking is the proper way to slow a vehicle in poor conditions especially snow, that goes for any car; FWD/RWD/AWD. The difference is with a RWD car engine braking only works on the rear axle. When slowing down where does weight go? To the front which means reduction in slowing force.

And none of that actually gets into the power vectoring of AWD which transfers power from slipping wheels to gripping wheels. Meaning when the RWD looses rear traction on a turn the back end swings out and the front wheels just sit back and laugh. On an AWD the front wheels take up the slack, grip and pull the car straight until the rear wheels get a purchase. And it can actually apply power to the outer front AND rear wheel on cornering, another thing RWD can not do.

All that is fine and dandy, but this was originally a RWD + snow tires vs. AWD + all season tires discussion. Lack of friction at the tire level inhibits the potential of what an AWD vehicle can do for you.

My experience is my current car with snow tires vs. my 08 Subaru Legacy GT with Continental DWS tires. The Subaru torque distribution is a locked 45 front and 55 rear for the 5EAT and it has a viscous limited slip differential in the rear. A simple mechanical setup, but effective. The 335i RWD + snow tires beats it in almost every measurable aspect with the exception of forward traction. That's very similar based on my experience.

... your describing scenarios where the Audi's AWD system in the S4 would certainly excel in... And like I said numerous times before, if I had to choose an AWD sport sedan for the snow/ice/slush along with dry performance, the Audi S4 would get the nod over the 335i xDrive. With it's Torsen center differential and torque vectoring rear e-diff, it will react much faster than the xDrive will and in a more predictable manner.

In order of what has made the most difference for me in control/safety for winter driving:
1. SNOW TIRES
...
2. AWD
3. Limited Slip Differentials