[KevRyd]

Not much, That is probably the weight difference between some of the posters I think the loss due to torque on the AT is minimal as the trigger is very slight and the shift happens so quick. I'm sure it is still way more efficient than dis-engaging the engin via the clutch. reduced torque for a fraction of a second is has to be better than a completely dis-enguaged drive train for possibly upti a second (perhaps slightly less deplnding on skill and feathering).

And again with the quoting numbers?

Kevin

[drob23]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I didn't say it would, just something to consider. People are sometimes obsessed with weight, maybe not ordering a sunroof for the added 50lbs, people who strip the trunk for a track day to save the weight, to those individuals, the trans difference is more meaningful.

I thought the sunroof was more about structural rigidity, but you are probably also right about weight. Am I right that the ZCP on the e46M3 removed AC, radio and other creature comforts? My butt dyno is probably wrong, but I can tell a difference in acceleration/handling when passengers are in and my car is a pig in comparison.

Regarding your torque converter comment above, I do think that the ZF AT's are getting very impressive efficiency with the clutch mechanism. I know the AH3 has a much beefier clutch setup that can completely decouple the flywheel. We've heard rumors that launch control will ship with the 2014, which if turns out to be true, would require some kind of clutch to handle the initial launch and thus negate the issues associated with a torque converter.

I had a chevy malibu rental the other day, and wow does a shi##y AT feel slow...almost a 2-3 second delay between kick down and actual acceleration. Considering how good the creep is on my DCT and how responsive the 8AT was that I test drove - I'd say the functional/performance/mileage arguments make these next generation automatic tranny's very desirable, with driver involvement being the only downside compared to a MT.

[Mark_K]

Originally Posted by Cryogen

My local dealer thinks that true enthusiasts order the AT. That must be due to the cultural difference : owning an AT here is considered as rare and cool, which is, I guess, the opposite in North America

Very true.

I came to US 12 years ago and if I had any opinion on AT then I thought that it was "cool" simply because I never tried to drive with one. After 5 years of "cool" I was extremely happy to lose company car privilege and I ran to VW dealership to buy Jetta TDI with MT. Never looked back after that.

I just spent 5 1/2 days with F30 328i X Drive w/M sport and Sport AT. I was amused and entertained by shift speed and action of paddles on the steering wheel while in Sport+ and shifter in M/S. Then I came to my favorite twisty road. Let's just say that this AT is very nice AND very good. But I would not buy F30 with it. In fact, I'm shortly buying a Golf TDI instead of 328d because I cannot accept to drive AT even when the car will be dedicated to commuting duties.

One more thing to those that view it as "progress" and, thus, it must be positive. You know, 30 years ago we used to use something called "logarithmic tables" in order to calculate manually a square or cube root of a number to 6 decimal places. Of course using the scientific calculator is much easier and faster. But make no mistake, the fact that you know how to push buttons on the calculator and obtain the result does not make you a mathematician. If you think that Lewis Hamilton doesn't know how to drive MT properly just because his company car has an AT, you are kidding yourselves. So, I simply say that, in order to be a good driver, you need to master driving MT properly. What you will chose to buy AFTER you mastered MT, that is simply a question of preference and choice.

[ft1338]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Which one? I'm struggling to find anything about it?

The transmission is called BVMP6 and is available on most of their cars.

Note that Citroen also has a sequential box and probably Renault. Looks to be gaining market acceptance now, in a country where auto transmissions were frowned upon as late as just a few years back. They say it's much better than the junky 4 speed autos that are so prevalent in the US even today on low-end cars.

[ft1338]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Nostalgia is fine and I encourage anyone to indulge their antediluvian pangs for the artifacts of history, so long as it's healthy to do so. (I don't care how much you like lead paint, it's not a good idea to put it on your walls, or your windows, or your doors, etc.) But being nostalgic over things from the past doesn't make those things perform better than the things that superseded them.

I prefer manuals just because I do for any number of reasons. But I know their day has come and is now waning into the dreary night of automatic transmissions. It is what it is, and what it is, is progress.

Will I buy another manual? I might, but being over 50, and knowing I'll be 60, or close to it, when I replace my E92, I doubt it. I can get by without the fun. Even now, a car is mostly just transportation to me. That said, sure, once in a while, I still kick it down to 2nd gear and take off like a bat outta hell; it's fun. But I don't do that anywhere near as often as I used to.

Once all cars are electric you won't be thinking manual anyway. You might not even be driving your own car after all.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by ft1338

The transmission is called BVMP6 and is available on most of their cars.

Note that Citroen also has a sequential box and probably Renault. Looks to be gaining market acceptance now, in a country where auto transmissions were frowned upon as late as just a few years back. They say it's much better than the junky 4 speed autos that are so prevalent in the US even today on low-end cars.

I could be completely off on this, but I thought MT culture in Europe was more a function of fuel economy and the obscene relative cost of petrol. Up till recently, torque converter 4AT's got worse MPG (is it km/L in Europe? lol) by a sizable margin. Plus, Europeans don't have commutes like suburban American's and thus don't want to spend lots of money on cars (house's are generally bought outright, not financed like here - correct?) and avoid the 1.5k surcharge of an AT.

Now that mass production has started to catch up (F30 gives no cost incentive for getting 6MT) and AT technology has matured to surpass MT in terms of efficiency, I bet you'll see lots more AT's sold in European markets in the coming years - maybe 3 - 5 until the ratio is similar to NA (pure speculation). It is interesting that many performance cars sold in Europe, such as the M5, are offered as DCT only while in the US they still come in 6MT.

[ft1338]

Originally Posted by drob23

I could be completely off on this, but I thought MT culture in Europe was more a function of fuel economy and the obscene relative cost of petrol. Up till recently, torque converter 4AT's got worse MPG (is it km/L in Europe? lol) by a sizable margin. Plus, Europeans don't have commutes like suburban American's and thus don't want to spend lots of money on cars (house's are generally bought outright, not financed like here - correct?) and avoid the 1.5k surcharge of an AT.

Now that mass production has started to catch up (F30 gives no cost incentive for getting 6MT) and AT technology has matured to surpass MT in terms of efficiency, I bet you'll see lots more AT's sold in European markets in the coming years - maybe 3 - 5 until the ratio is similar to NA (pure speculation). It is interesting that many performance cars sold in Europe, such as the M5, are offered as DCT only while in the US they still come in 6MT.

Yes, gas is expensive in Europe but people don't drive MT because it saves gas or money. They drive MT because it's considered the standard way a car should be driven. That's just "how we do", tradition if you will. Furthermore, on the very rare occasion someone owns an AT it's because of some handicap, like they have a bum leg or something. I'm not making this up, I'm born and raised in France. But now all of that is changing and people are starting to embrace AT (just a little for now, starting with 50-60 yo folks).

In France and I guess the rest of the continent we use liters per 100 km. People do have pretty serious commutes just like Americans unless they live in the city center which is a minority of people. People like to live in the suburbs because they can own houses vs. apartments in city centers. Housing is definitely financed through mortgages just like in the US.

It's interesting that you mention the M5 and why it's only available in AT in Europe. I think the explanation is that, like I said, MT is the natural choice for the everyday life. Everyone has one. Once you're getting into exotic territories, you want something different, something fancy that most people don't have. So you will want an AT. I think it's the same thought process in the US, only reversed. Most people have an AT so you want MT!!!

[noro]

Originally Posted by phx08

So because someone doesn’t understand the mechanism of an MT they aren’t considered an enthusiast? What if they understand the mechanism of AT? You confuse me, sir.


I declare because you do not understand the operational synergy between technology and hardware, you are not an enthusiast.

You seem easily confused... I'd start working on that part 1st. 2nd would be the ability to read something and absorb it.

You seem good with using big words though, congratulations.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by drob23

I thought the sunroof was more about structural rigidity, but you are probably also right about weight. Am I right that the ZCP on the e46M3 removed AC, radio and other creature comforts? My butt dyno is probably wrong, but I can tell a difference in acceleration/handling when passengers are in and my car is a pig in comparison.

It's a few things, it's not just the 50lbs, but it's 50lbs up high affecting the cars CR or center of gravity. Slicktops(what my 300ZX was called when there were no T-Tops) were more rigid, I think it is less of a concern today as cars have become so stiff-but yes, it was more a concern/upside to a sunroofless car 5-10-15 years ago.

I notice a performance difference with a passenger, you should 150lbs is like losing 10-15hp. We claim to feel the difference from the 10-15hp of a downpipe or catback exhaust-so it should be the same scenario with a passenger. I find cold air makes a big difference or two. When I am alone in the Roadster on a 58 degree morning I feel like the car could take off-take flight lol. Very different from an 90 degree humid day with a 250lb friend on my right.

[KevRyd]

Until recent history manufacturers charged extra for AT's wheras MT's where included in the base price of the car, so economics as welll as attitude might be in play

Kevin

Originally Posted by ft1338

Yes, gas is expensive in Europe but people don't drive MT because it saves gas or money. They drive MT because it's considered the standard way a car should be driven. That's just "how we do", tradition if you will. Furthermore, on the very rare occasion someone owns an AT it's because of some handicap, like they have a bum leg or something. I'm not making this up, I'm born and raised in France. But now all of that is changing and people are starting to embrace AT (just a little for now, starting with 50-60 yo folks).

In France and I guess the rest of the continent we use liters per 100 km. People do have pretty serious commutes just like Americans unless they live in the city center which is a minority of people. People like to live in the suburbs because they can own houses vs. apartments in city centers. Housing is definitely financed through mortgages just like in the US.

It's interesting that you mention the M5 and why it's only available in AT in Europe. I think the explanation is that, like I said, MT is the natural choice for the everyday life. Everyone has one. Once you're getting into exotic territories, you want something different, something fancy that most people don't have. So you will want an AT. I think it's the same thought process in the US, only reversed. Most people have an AT so you want MT!!!

[JohnVidale]

Originally Posted by Mark_K

One more thing to those that view it as "progress" and, thus, it must be positive. You know, 30 years ago we used to use something called "logarithmic tables" in order to calculate manually a square or cube root of a number to 6 decimal places. Of course using the scientific calculator is much easier and faster. But make no mistake, the fact that you know how to push buttons on the calculator and obtain the result does not make you a mathematician.

A good analogy. We no longer teach how to compute square roots or logarithms by hand, how to use a slide rule, nor how to use books of math tables. Nor the Dewey decimal system to find books in the library.

It's hard to argue from that that mathematicians are regressing to the Dark Ages, however, rather progress is accelerating.

While a manual transmission may be entertaining, and give a crude impression of the car's status that now is more accurately surveyed with instrumentation or dealt with automatically, its days are numbered.

[ATX78703]

this is a funny debate... especially the part where some forum members are dropping 200-400 millisecond upshifts on their 6MT.

i mean get whatever transmission you want - whatever floats your boat and your priorities. from an objective data POV, the 8at sports is kicking the 6mt's a*s in the f30 in both efficiency and performance. just imagine when the 2014 MYs roll out with launch control. however, you will always have more control with a MT. i mean the car is never going to know what's going on in your head, but your right hand will. that element of control will always make a manual desirable.

for me, haven driven stick's my whole life, I'm done. the next car for me (most likely an f30) will be with the 8at.

[Mark_K]

Originally Posted by JohnVidale

It's hard to argue from that that mathematicians are regressing to the Dark Ages, however, rather progress is accelerating.

Mathematicians are not regressing, but good luck finding a 10 years old kid that knows how much is 9X7 without turning on the smartphone or Google. And those are the good ones - they at least do know there's a calculator app on the smartphone.

Regardless, very soon this will all be a moot point because we will be driving cars that don't necessitate a transmission. I, for one, can't wait. That doesn't mean I will accept AT with ICE powering the car ... now, THAT'S putting a lipstick on a pig if there ever was one. And calling it "progress" to boot

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by ft1338

The transmission is called BVMP6 and is available on most of their cars.

Note that Citroen also has a sequential box and probably Renault. Looks to be gaining market acceptance now, in a country where auto transmissions were frowned upon as late as just a few years back. They say it's much better than the junky 4 speed autos that are so prevalent in the US even today on low-end cars.

Cool - might research it later. My ex-girlfriend drove a Smart car once, and complained that the gearbox was jerky - now I know it's a sequential rather than automatic, that explains a lot. If ever they take away the 6MT completely, I would prefer to move to a sequential manual or a semi-automatic rather than an automatic because I like being able to select a gear, and hold it regardless of the throttle position. There's a lot of "steering" and balancing of a car that can be done with the throttle, especially in sweeping turns.

I didn't try it in the 8AT BMWs, but my Lexus when you selected 3rd that only meant the highest gear it would use is 3rd - so you couldn't just squeeze the throttle and let the torque of the straight 6 pull you out of a low speed corner - it always insisted on changing down, which required waiting a bit while it sorted itself out. Only auto I have ever had, and likely to remain that way. Is the BMW 8AT the same, or will it genuinely lock a gear in?

[EB_F30]

Originally Posted by Seagull

I agree. Sometimes I miss the old 6MT for the fun and involvement. But sometimes I love the way the 8AT just slams into the next gear. Plus I can't heel toe very well so... the 8AT is definitely faster than I could ever be.

I hear ya and I know there are others out that feel the same...but the thrill of getting a perfect launch and rowing to a steady 100 on the top of 3rd is just something you can't do in a auto.

I have had about 7 or 8 manuals ranging from Stangs, Trans AM's, Accords, older 3 series and I personally love the clutch in the f30...it's ridiculously easy to drive and engage and super smooth but firm as well. I also love the M short shifter, it rows through the gear so precise...its a perfect balance and BMW got this one right. Just pushing the go pedal is well...boring.

[openwheelracing]

everyone arguing for MT has yet to explain why it's better, other than personal preference.

Simply put, automatic transmissions are so good today, there is no reason to buy MT anymore, unless you "just prefer MT".

Some people still prefer flip phones and film cameras. Nothing wrong with that, but that's just personal preference without logical reason.

[phx08]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

everyone arguing for MT has yet to explain why it's better, other than personal preference.

Simply put, automatic transmissions are so good today, there is no reason to buy MT anymore, unless you "just prefer MT".

Some people still prefer flip phones and film cameras. Nothing wrong with that, but that's just personal preference without logical reason.

Their logical reason is "just because" and a placebo of being "connected" more to the car

But yes, personal choice

[Phaeron]

Performance wise it would be power loss due to the ATs torque converter. Now the DCT I believe has the same power loss as a manual.


I was wondering if the ZF Sport AT had less of a loss then a normal AT and if it had come close to a manual. I mean look at the M135 because it uses the ZF 8 speed in an Msport and Chris Harris loved it.

[Red Bread]

Just to nerd out, the additional gears, with more force in each gear more than negate any slight difference in efficiency of a clutch over a torque converter. Even the E90 335i was quicker with the 6s ZF, with similar gearing, so clearly the efficiency loss is negligible at most.

As for reasons to prefer a manual over an automatic, it's similar to the difference in getting a hand written thank you note and an email. Both ultimately do the same thing.

[BmwFlooner]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

everyone arguing for MT has yet to explain why it's better, other than personal preference.

Excluding everything but personal preference, you have yet to explain why it's not :P

Most of us MT drivers have been saying that we drive manuals simply because we like to. There's no other consideration.

As for the 'placebo' effect...? I haven't driven a car that I thought was a manual but was really an automatic that fooled me into a false sense of connectedness with the car. I know how it feels to drive an auto, and I know how it feels to drive a manual.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by ATX78703

this is a funny debate... especially the part where some forum members are dropping 200-400 millisecond upshifts on their 6MT.

i mean get whatever transmission you want - whatever floats your boat and your priorities. from an objective data POV, the 8at sports is kicking the 6mt's a*s in the f30 in both efficiency and performance. just imagine when the 2014 MYs roll out with launch control. however, you will always have more control with a MT. i mean the car is never going to know what's going on in your head, but your right hand will. that element of control will always make a manual desirable.

for me, haven driven stick's my whole life, I'm done. the next car for me (most likely an f30) will be with the 8at.

I'm also enjoying the discussion - and the smug sense of superiority some AT drivers seem to have developed - looking down on the "poor MT drivers" as being relics from the past or something.

My how times change

[HighlandPete]

Pleased to see not everyone sees a "driving enthusiast" as marked by the simplistic choice of driving MT. Not sure mastering MT is any mark of passage into the 'real driver' category either.

I'm in the UK where MT was the norm until recently. It is a complex history, governed by several factors. From my experience of over 40-years driving, its been a combination of purchase cost, fuel efficiency, performance and the fact many autos were rubbish anyway, particularly coupled to the smaller engines we commonly have in the UK. The fact that autos were so poor in performance, used more fuel, being partly responsible for drivers feeling you must have MT, even if you did fight with them in some instances. MT continued as the only viable option until recently.

I've driven manual and auto over the years, but would never purchase an auto as my own car, not because auto are for folks who can't, or don't enjoy driving. Simply they weren't usually the best option, too fuel hungry and stunted the engine's performance, plus they were so disconnected in many installations. I was driving autos back in the 1970s with (for the UK) bigger engines like the Rover P6 3.5, the Triumph Stag and the first Range Rovers, then an auto made a bit more sense.

But today we are in a different world. For me the first auto that really made sense was the ZF 5-speed, as in the E39, a gearbox (if you learned to drive it with skill) would do most of what I wanted. The ZF 6-speed improved that interaction and control, the ZF 8-speed is a massive march forward and the best auto I've driven.

BTW, even MT is open to criticism, not all gearboxes and clutch action are conducive to "man and machine in harmony", so lets not get too hooked on AT vs. MT as the only measure. A good AT vs. a good MT is a better measure, IMO. I've driven examples of MT that are so bad in their application it begs the question "why bother?" I've driving brilliantly matched clutch/MT combinations, the pleasure for me is as much in the quality of the product and its execution, as the ability to change the gears with a clutch action.

I drive AT these days, as a driver I still get the same satisfaction mile after mile, as I ever did in an MT model. I don't see myself as a lesser driver for choosing AT, or losing my "driving enthusiast" status, just because I have chosen an alternative transmission. I even drive diesels, something else many feel a real driver wouldn't do.

HighlandPete