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      09-07-2018, 02:18 AM   #23
xenon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JNW1 View Post
The extra RFL is peanuts in the context of running a £40k+ car and hence basing the whole purchasing decision around that is allowing the tail to wag the dog IMO...
This. Changing the engine to one you didn't really want in order to save the cost of a pint a week is nuts.

I'm not impressed with paying £500 RFL either but in the grand scheme of things...
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      09-07-2018, 02:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by JNW1 View Post
Despite protestations from politicians to the contrary, the tax system isn't always fair and the change to RFL is another example of one which is entirely arbitrary and based on nothing other than an assumption that if you can afford a car with a list price of over £40k you can also afford to pay more tax. However, draconian though it is, its introduction was well publicised so I don't really have any sympathy for someone who bought a £40k+ car and is now complaining come RFL renewal time!

You were obviously aware of the change and made your purchasing decision accordingly but personally I wouldn't let the level of RFL dictate my choice of car. For example, I'd far rather have a 440i and pay the higher RFL than sneak under the £40k barrier and have to live with a 420i for 3 or 4 years. The extra RFL is peanuts in the context of running a £40k+ car and hence basing the whole purchasing decision around that is allowing the tail to wag the dog IMO...

The choice for me was between a 420i and 430i - neither car would have cost me anything like 40k after the discount available to me but, since I didn't want to be driving poverty spec the 430i would have been well over the £40k list price. The extra RFL isn't insignificant and adds nearly 10% to the monthly payments before adding the other costs of owning the higher spec 430i which themselves are increased by reduced residuals (because of the tax) - it's a double whammy.

The question is how much is an extra 70hp worth? Before the new tax rules the cost benefit balance was probably about right but now, for me at least, the cost of the extra power on a monthly basis is completely disproportionate. I could afford it if I really wanted to but it just seems to be a ripoff and there's other things I'd like to spend the money on.

Last edited by thescouselander; 09-07-2018 at 02:47 AM..
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      09-07-2018, 02:37 AM   #25
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It would be slightly easier to swallow if the extra RFL would be spent on the roads. But will it fcuk. It's just another way this shower of shit Government taxes the motorist.
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      09-07-2018, 02:58 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
The choice for me was between a 420i and 430i - neither car would have cost me anything like 40k after the discount available to me but, since I didn't want to be driving poverty spec the 430i would have been well over the £40k list price. The extra RFL isn't insignificant and adds nearly 10% to the monthly payments before adding the other costs of owning the higher spec 430i which themselves are increased by reduced residuals (because of the tax) - it's a double whammy.

The question is how much is an extra 70hp worth? Before the new tax rules the cost benefit balance was probably about right but now, for me at least, the cost of the extra power on a monthly basis is completely disproportionate. I could afford is if I really wanted to but it just seems to be a ripoff and there's other things I'd like to spend the money on.
The RFL "premium" for cars costing over £40k is, I believe, £310/annum for the first 6 years? Compared to costs such as depreciation I personally think that pales into insignificance on a new car of that value although I can see it potentially represents a bigger proportion of total running costs on an older vehicle. However, whether it will be enough to affect residuals significantly remains to be seen; not convinced it will myself but only time will tell....
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      09-07-2018, 06:42 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JNW1 View Post
The RFL "premium" for cars costing over £40k is, I believe, £310/annum for the first 6 years? Compared to costs such as depreciation I personally think that pales into insignificance on a new car of that value although I can see it potentially represents a bigger proportion of total running costs on an older vehicle. However, whether it will be enough to affect residuals significantly remains to be seen; not convinced it will myself but only time will tell....
I can't see how it won't affect residuals. The type of person in the market for a 4 year old used car isn't generally the same type of person who would brush off a £500 road tax bill every year. In any case the lower residuals seem to be getting priced into the PCP calculations which affects the monthly payment and that is the key metric as far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps unintuitively I don't think the second hand buyer will actually be disadvantaged ultimately. The tax bill might go up but I suspect this will be more than compensated for by the lower purchase price for the vehicle as market forces balance everything out - in reality it will be the new buyers that get clobbered.

Last edited by thescouselander; 09-07-2018 at 06:52 AM..
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      09-07-2018, 07:13 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
I can't see how it won't affect residuals. The type of person in the market for a 4 year old used car isn't generally the same type of person who would brush off a £500 road tax bill every year. In any case the lower residuals seem to be getting priced into the PCP calculations which affects the monthly payment and that is the key metric as far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps unintuitively I don't think the second hand buyer will actually be disadvantaged ultimately. The tax bill might go up but I suspect this will be more than compensated for by the lower purchase price for the vehicle as market forces balance everything out - in reality it will be the new buyers that get clobbered.
I'm sure there will be a slight drop in residual values due to the used buyer seeing higher running costs. Then this is only one factor depressing used values.

BMW have flooded the market, assisted with tempting incentives. The cost of the cars has crept up anyway, (made worse by the multi-options factor), that in itself means a faster fall to sensible used values. Perceived costs of running a higher valued used car, more complex cars adds to the hit, as has always been the pattern.

It has always been a buyers dilemma, buy a premium used car at say £20k, or buy a new car of the same value. Many more will opt for the new car, lower and controlled running costs, vs. the unknown costs of a complex (perceived or real) premium used car. The higher VED will turn a few more users in the cheaper new car direction. Market forces will level to where car buyers see the 'balance' of (new vs. used) values.
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      09-07-2018, 07:25 AM   #29
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Slightly off topic, but what's the deal with car tax, on a new car, when you collect late in the month ?

Do you get butt fucked for the entire month, or is there some other mechanism on new cars ? Not done this before.
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      09-07-2018, 07:45 AM   #30
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Yes, any car you tax late in the month has to be taxed from the beginning of that month.

Q
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      09-07-2018, 07:50 AM   #31
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Just pay my tax £0 and still have to register it every year what a hardship.
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      09-07-2018, 07:52 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantox View Post
Yes, any car you tax late in the month has to be taxed from the beginning of that month.

Q
Not always. Dealers can add days onto the tax in this instance. I've picked cars up a few days before the end of the month and not been greased for a full month IE, the car effectively comes with 12 months and x days tax. Don't know what the criteria is for this how many days maximum you can add or if it only applies to new cars - but it can and has been done.
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      09-07-2018, 08:05 AM   #33
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I pay taxes and look pleasant but on this I do think the £40,000 should be dynamised each year with inflation by the Chancellor eg £40,000 and the next year £40,000 plus 2% say or £40800 which might protect some of us in a fair way.
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      09-07-2018, 12:51 PM   #34
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Let's get it right, it's nothing to do with emissions, it's about raising taxes. Why tax a Tesla that runs zero emissions...because they can. When the day comes we are all running electric cars they'll tax us again for something else.

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with paying tax, I just would prefer if they cut the bullshit and told us the real reason they change taxation on cars every 10 mins
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      09-07-2018, 02:29 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rukka View Post
Not always. Dealers can add days onto the tax in this instance. I've picked cars up a few days before the end of the month and not been greased for a full month IE, the car effectively comes with 12 months and x days tax. Don't know what the criteria is for this how many days maximum you can add or if it only applies to new cars - but it can and has been done.
Did some more digging, and found this:

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/dvla/V355_290613.pdf

Check page 13 - Question 3. Also Appendix R for how much it costs.

Looks like you can do 12 months plus up to 3 weeks extra. It's not free, but you don't need to pay for the full month.
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      12-07-2018, 05:16 AM   #36
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Iím sorry to dig this thread up again.
If Iím buying a new car and the on the road price is £40,200 including the
first year road tax do I have to pay the extra £340 road tax in the next 5 years ?
If the on the road price is £40,200 minus the £515 first year road tax = £39,685 and therefore the price of the car is under £40K and therefore exempt from the extra £340.
Am I right in thinking the list price of the car doesnít include the first year
Road tax ?
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      12-07-2018, 05:24 AM   #37
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The £40K rip-off tax is based on the list price of the vehicle (including any optional extras), not the on the road price. You don't need to include delivery, road tax, number plates or anything else.

Sounds like you should be fine
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      12-07-2018, 05:26 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isow View Post
Iím sorry to dig this thread up again.
If Iím buying a new car and the on the road price is £40,200 including the
first year road tax do I have to pay the extra £340 road tax in the next 5 years ?
If the on the road price is £40,200 minus the £515 first year road tax = £39,685 and therefore the price of the car is under £40K and therefore exempt from the extra £340.
Am I right in thinking the list price of the car doesnít include the first year
Road tax ?
Vehicles with a list price exceeding £40,000 (including factory installed options, delivery charge, number plates and VAT) will pay an additional £310 plus the standard annual rate for a 5 year period. After the 5 year period only the standard rate will apply.

You can disregard VED and the £55 first reg fee in your calculations I think!
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      12-07-2018, 05:29 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Steces View Post
Just be happy you didn't buy a car at just under the threshold then spec a random 100 quid option to launch you into the Suoertax bracket

Somebody must have
£40459 for mine. Sodding salesman didnít mention the threshold and I wasnít aware of the changes..
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      12-07-2018, 05:40 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrklaw View Post
£40459 for mine. Sodding salesman didnít mention the threshold and I wasnít aware of the changes..
Is that total or before on road costs?
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      12-07-2018, 06:10 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavalarrr View Post
Vehicles with a list price exceeding £40,000 (including factory installed options, delivery charge, number plates and VAT) will pay an additional £310 plus the standard annual rate for a 5 year period. After the 5 year period only the standard rate will apply.

You can disregard VED and the £55 first reg fee in your calculations I think!
I'm pretty sure that delivery charges, number plates, registration fees and fuel are not considered part of the list price. It's just the price of the car (including options), and the VAT.

It's the 'On the road' price that includes these.
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      12-07-2018, 06:13 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thescouselander View Post
It's stupid. I had to drop an engine size on my new order to get under the £40k mark. So not only did the government not get their £300 per year they didn't get the VAT on the higher purchase price or the fuel duty on the extra fuel I would have used or the additional insurance tax. Never in the history of government has there been a more retarded policy.
Do you not recall the horse shit that was stamp duty before they recently updated policy.
For years, if your house was £249,999 it was 1% stamp, however if it was £250,001, then 3% on the whole lot of it. Now that was the most retarded tax policy ever!

I've a great idea, how about they do something similar for cars, i.e. a sliding scale, starting at price over £40k. It would not be difficult to construct a reasonable scale that achieved the same revenue stream, but did not smash the £42k car owners quite so much. i.e. If you can afford a 100k car, tax that more. If you can afford a 200k Ferrari, harder still etc.... Oh I know why, cause middle England ends up paying for everything, as always...
The less well off are too poor to contribute more, and the very well off are... "tax efficient"
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      12-07-2018, 06:50 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodbyalfa View Post
Do you not recall the horse shit that was stamp duty before they recently updated policy.
For years, if your house was £249,999 it was 1% stamp, however if it was £250,001, then 3% on the whole lot of it. Now that was the most retarded tax policy ever!

I've a great idea, how about they do something similar for cars, i.e. a sliding scale, starting at price over £40k. It would not be difficult to construct a reasonable scale that achieved the same revenue stream, but did not smash the £42k car owners quite so much. i.e. If you can afford a 100k car, tax that more. If you can afford a 200k Ferrari, harder still etc.... Oh I know why, cause middle England ends up paying for everything, as always...
The less well off are too poor to contribute more, and the very well off are... "tax efficient"

Yep
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      12-07-2018, 06:54 AM   #44
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This feels much like when they screwed people over on child benefit - you are earning enough to buy a nice car so you can't easily complain as people will laugh at you.

Previously it was based on CO2 which seemed a logical approach - a Tesla has 0 so you pay less even though the car is more expensive. Going to purely price based is a very blunt instrument.
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