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      09-15-2020, 04:12 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by BMWILUVU View Post
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Originally Posted by gippy View Post
few years back, had an FK2 type R. Was sublime on track - zero body roll, no ducking and diving, it was a borderline track car.

my car - is the opposite. Its currently on sale but no one interested, so looks like i'm keeping it.

now, i'm not bothered about ride quality on the road at all - so with that in mind, what would it take to get my car to FK2 levels of composure?

will stiffer springs do? Or would i need stiffer ARB's?

or will i have to spend some money and get a full suspension kit? would i also need to upgrade the sway bars too?

Also what do people recommend - not willing to spend high-end, what should i look at for low-medium end, that will give me that ultra stiff and responsive handling i'm after, but also reasonably priced? what brands?
That car is 600 lbs lighter, why not just buy a civic type R?
Have you ever seen the exterior or interior of a type R? Why even ask this question. Did you think it was clever?
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      09-15-2020, 05:12 PM   #24
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That car is 600 lbs lighter, why not just buy a civic type R?
yeh, why not?
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      09-15-2020, 05:43 PM   #25
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There always seems to be a lot of discontent when people are faced with the facts that a Honda drives better than their $60K+ BMW.
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      09-15-2020, 08:50 PM   #26
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sway bars

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
My suspension philosophy is different than most concerning F3x. I came from modding other makes. When we had body roll the very first thing that we'd do is upgrade sway bars to take care of body roll. Then we'd get into other components.

IMO the reason that doesn't happen with F3x is because the sway bars are buried so the labor is expensive. The tasks are simple. It just takes time. It's not sexy to spend a ton on sway bars but it will put a giant smile on your face!

So this whole, (what I consider crazy with my background) thing has developed where F3x guys spend all kinds of money on heavy springs, shocks, coilovers, etc pretty much in an attempt to handle body roll. Rather than just upgrade the component that most directly controls body roll. Even after all of those upgrades, most of them are still running stock sway bars!

My local BMW sales rep who used to race cars for an actual living totally agrees. He said that the very first thing he would do with an F3x is upgrade the sway bars.

H&R has great engineering. Their sways are a great heavy duty set that are perfectly matched front to rear. My car corners FLAT with them.

Based on your car, requirements and budget, then I'd go with H&R springs and Koni Yellow Shocks.

Top off the front suspension with this strut tower brace...

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...f32-f36?aff=22

The most important bushing change that you can make in the front is to go with these monoball thrust arms. It gets rid of the vague F3x steering without adding Noise Vibration or Harshness. This makes the steering very precise which is imperative on the track. Huge difference.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...set-rwd?aff=22

If you have budget you can replace Lower Control Arms (wishbones) with monoballs also which tighten up side to side movement. But UCA are more critical for the huge steering improvement.

IMO avoid the old style factory shaped bushings made out of less compliant materials. They just add unnecessary NVH. There are monoballs for the rear too. But I'd suggest doing the above a drive the car before jumping into more rear suspension changes. You are already changing rear springs, shocks and sway bar.

I got lucky last year that BMW had a fire sale on the M Performance LSD that fit my car. An LSD is a great addition and there are a few options available to you. It's expensive so drive the car with other mods first before pulling the trigger on an LSD.

Tire size and compound make a huge difference. I stuck with a square setup on stock 400M wheels with my xDrive and went 245/40-18 on Michelin Pilot Sport 4S. Amazing! If I went with 19" wheels, I would have done 255/35-19.

I don't think you mentioned whether you have grey brakes (Front 340mm/Rear 330mm) or blue M Sport Brakes (Front 370mm/Rear345mm)?
I have suggestions with brakes for tracking too.

Hope this helps!
you would say sway bars are more important than subframe bushungs? have you done the rear subframe bushings on your car? i ask because on my e82 i think they helped more than the rear sway bar which was also buried like the f30.
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      09-15-2020, 09:38 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike082802 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
My suspension philosophy is different than most concerning F3x. I came from modding other makes. When we had body roll the very first thing that we'd do is upgrade sway bars to take care of body roll. Then we'd get into other components.

IMO the reason that doesn't happen with F3x is because the sway bars are buried so the labor is expensive. The tasks are simple. It just takes time. It's not sexy to spend a ton on sway bars but it will put a giant smile on your face!

So this whole, (what I consider crazy with my background) thing has developed where F3x guys spend all kinds of money on heavy springs, shocks, coilovers, etc pretty much in an attempt to handle body roll. Rather than just upgrade the component that most directly controls body roll. Even after all of those upgrades, most of them are still running stock sway bars!

My local BMW sales rep who used to race cars for an actual living totally agrees. He said that the very first thing he would do with an F3x is upgrade the sway bars.

H&R has great engineering. Their sways are a great heavy duty set that are perfectly matched front to rear. My car corners FLAT with them.

Based on your car, requirements and budget, then I'd go with H&R springs and Koni Yellow Shocks.

Top off the front suspension with this strut tower brace...

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...f32-f36?aff=22

The most important bushing change that you can make in the front is to go with these monoball thrust arms. It gets rid of the vague F3x steering without adding Noise Vibration or Harshness. This makes the steering very precise which is imperative on the track. Huge difference.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...set-rwd?aff=22

If you have budget you can replace Lower Control Arms (wishbones) with monoballs also which tighten up side to side movement. But UCA are more critical for the huge steering improvement.

IMO avoid the old style factory shaped bushings made out of less compliant materials. They just add unnecessary NVH. There are monoballs for the rear too. But I'd suggest doing the above a drive the car before jumping into more rear suspension changes. You are already changing rear springs, shocks and sway bar.

I got lucky last year that BMW had a fire sale on the M Performance LSD that fit my car. An LSD is a great addition and there are a few options available to you. It's expensive so drive the car with other mods first before pulling the trigger on an LSD.

Tire size and compound make a huge difference. I stuck with a square setup on stock 400M wheels with my xDrive and went 245/40-18 on Michelin Pilot Sport 4S. Amazing! If I went with 19" wheels, I would have done 255/35-19.

I don't think you mentioned whether you have grey brakes (Front 340mm/Rear 330mm) or blue M Sport Brakes (Front 370mm/Rear345mm)?
I have suggestions with brakes for tracking too.

Hope this helps!
you would say sway bars are more important than subframe bushungs? have you done the rear subframe bushings on your car? i ask because on my e82 i think they helped more than the rear sway bar which was also buried like the f30.
The 1 series was more of a drivers car than the F3x. Plus our cars are much wider, no? Body roll would be less of an issue for a 1 in that case.
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      09-15-2020, 10:07 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike082802 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
My suspension philosophy is different than most concerning F3x. I came from modding other makes. When we had body roll the very first thing that we'd do is upgrade sway bars to take care of body roll. Then we'd get into other components.

IMO the reason that doesn't happen with F3x is because the sway bars are buried so the labor is expensive. The tasks are simple. It just takes time. It's not sexy to spend a ton on sway bars but it will put a giant smile on your face!

So this whole, (what I consider crazy with my background) thing has developed where F3x guys spend all kinds of money on heavy springs, shocks, coilovers, etc pretty much in an attempt to handle body roll. Rather than just upgrade the component that most directly controls body roll. Even after all of those upgrades, most of them are still running stock sway bars!

My local BMW sales rep who used to race cars for an actual living totally agrees. He said that the very first thing he would do with an F3x is upgrade the sway bars.

H&R has great engineering. Their sways are a great heavy duty set that are perfectly matched front to rear. My car corners FLAT with them.

Based on your car, requirements and budget, then I'd go with H&R springs and Koni Yellow Shocks.

Top off the front suspension with this strut tower brace...

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...f32-f36?aff=22

The most important bushing change that you can make in the front is to go with these monoball thrust arms. It gets rid of the vague F3x steering without adding Noise Vibration or Harshness. This makes the steering very precise which is imperative on the track. Huge difference.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...set-rwd?aff=22

If you have budget you can replace Lower Control Arms (wishbones) with monoballs also which tighten up side to side movement. But UCA are more critical for the huge steering improvement.

IMO avoid the old style factory shaped bushings made out of less compliant materials. They just add unnecessary NVH. There are monoballs for the rear too. But I'd suggest doing the above a drive the car before jumping into more rear suspension changes. You are already changing rear springs, shocks and sway bar.

I got lucky last year that BMW had a fire sale on the M Performance LSD that fit my car. An LSD is a great addition and there are a few options available to you. It's expensive so drive the car with other mods first before pulling the trigger on an LSD.

Tire size and compound make a huge difference. I stuck with a square setup on stock 400M wheels with my xDrive and went 245/40-18 on Michelin Pilot Sport 4S. Amazing! If I went with 19" wheels, I would have done 255/35-19.

I don't think you mentioned whether you have grey brakes (Front 340mm/Rear 330mm) or blue M Sport Brakes (Front 370mm/Rear345mm)?
I have suggestions with brakes for tracking too.

Hope this helps!
you would say sway bars are more important than subframe bushungs? have you done the rear subframe bushings on your car? i ask because on my e82 i think they helped more than the rear sway bar which was also buried like the f30.
If I was only permitted one suspension mod it would be upgraded sway bars. Body roll is the top issue in F3x. Rear bushings are at the bottom of my list.

When my rear sway bar, shocks and springs were being replaced I was looking at rear bushings and discussed it with the BMW tech who was doing the work for me. He strongly cautioned me not to replace my rear bushings with solid or stiffer bushings because it would introduce Noise Vibration Harshness. From what I know now, I would only consider sealed monoball street bushings.
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      09-16-2020, 06:25 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
If I was only permitted one suspension mod it would be upgraded sway bars. Body roll is the top issue in F3x. Rear bushings are at the bottom of my list.

When my rear sway bar, shocks and springs were being replaced I was looking at rear bushings and discussed it with the BMW tech who was doing the work for me. He strongly cautioned me not to replace my rear bushings with solid or stiffer bushings because it would introduce Noise Vibration Harshness. From what I know now, I would only consider sealed monoball street bushings.
well you've convinced me.

i just spoke to my trusted local indy, to replace front+rear ARB's.
3 hours labour, 75/hr = 235. Which i'm super happy with.

A decision has been made then - time to shop around for some serious arb's front and rear. i think i'll just start calling them 'sway bars' now for this forum!

Any recommendations? or just go with what you've got! why did you choose H&R over others in the end?

seems to be some reservations about bushes then from your side compared to others....... i guess if i'm replacing the sways then seems like the right time to do the bushes too - but i duno which ones to go for. Some disagreement here about just how much of an impact they make.... i can see both sides.

Last edited by gippy; 09-16-2020 at 06:51 AM..
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      09-16-2020, 07:04 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gippy View Post
well you've convinced me.

i just spoke to my trusted local indy, to replace front+rear ARB's.
3 hours labour, 75/hr = 235. Which i'm super happy with.

A decision has been made then - time to shop around for some serious arb's front and rear. i think i'll just start calling them 'sway bars' now for this forum!

Any recommendations? or just go with what you've got! why did you choose H&R over others in the end?

seems to be some reservations about bushes then from your side compared to others....... i guess if i'm replacing the sways then seems like the right time to do the bushes too - but i duno which ones to go for. Some disagreement here about just how much of an impact they make.... i can see both sides.
NVH comes with sealed monoball too. Why not look for a used Type-R, but if you are starting down that path, stiffer lowering springs and dampers are first. Think about lighter or forged rims and now is the time for the tires upgraded too. Swaybars can be later to tune or tweak the end-result suspension. Forget the strut tower bars, they do very little on these rigid chassis on the streets. Tuning suspensions cost alot of time and money.
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      09-16-2020, 08:55 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gippy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
If I was only permitted one suspension mod it would be upgraded sway bars. Body roll is the top issue in F3x. Rear bushings are at the bottom of my list.

When my rear sway bar, shocks and springs were being replaced I was looking at rear bushings and discussed it with the BMW tech who was doing the work for me. He strongly cautioned me not to replace my rear bushings with solid or stiffer bushings because it would introduce Noise Vibration Harshness. From what I know now, I would only consider sealed monoball street bushings.
well you've convinced me.

i just spoke to my trusted local indy, to replace front+rear ARB's.
3 hours labour, £75/hr = £235. Which i'm super happy with.

A decision has been made then - time to shop around for some serious arb's front and rear. i think i'll just start calling them 'sway bars' now for this forum!

Any recommendations? or just go with what you've got! why did you choose H&R over others in the end?

seems to be some reservations about bushes then from your side compared to others....... i guess if i'm replacing the sways then seems like the right time to do the bushes too - but i duno which ones to go for. Some disagreement here about just how much of an impact they make.... i can see both sides.
You got an awesome price quote on sway bar labor. Do it quick before he revises the quote!

Technically they are anti-sway bars, but easier to say just sway. What does ARB stand for? I was beginning to think it's something to order in a corner pub.

I've been using German H&R sways for decades. Their engineering and manufacturing are the best. They use solid bars. Some manufacturers play up their high tech hollow tubular bars (Dinan is one) but there are photos on forums of them suddenly breaking. Not likely to happen with a solid H&R bar.

Often not understood is the relationship of the ratio between the front and rear bars. If you put too heavy or too light of a bar on the front or the rear, you can significantly change the dynamics of the suspension. Suddenly the car is oversteering or understeering which can cause very bad consequences on the roadway.

H&R has always understood this and matched their front and rear bars to remove unwanted body roll without changing the dynamics of the suspension.

That's why I cringe when I read guys recommend only upgrading the rear sway bar on an F3x. They are doing so because of cost, because it's more expensive labor to do the front bar. Sways should always be upgraded in matched pairs unless you're on a race team or something and really understand the engineering of what's being removed and what's replacing it. It's scary to think of someone pushing a daily driver hard after a single bar swap, the car acting unexpectedly and ending up wrapped around a tree.

My installer/BMW Tech was doing my H&R bars on the side so he upgraded one bar and I had to wait several nights until he had time to do the opposite bar. The dynamics around turns was very different. I didn't dare push it. Once the second bar was on the chassis dynamics were back to normal and the body roll was gone!

He hadn't done H&R sways on an F3x before. The roads where he lives are a beautiful undulating curvy test track. He came back with a huge smile and said it was the best handling F3x that he's ever test driven. He had installed sways on many cars before and was expecting an improvement, but he still expressed amazement at the results of the H&R's on my F3x chassis.

Compared to other aftermarket sway bars on the market for the F3x, the H&R may be the strongest. But that's what I wanted. Sways are not like springs where if you go too stiff it really effects ride comfort.

If you are cruising down a country road or a super highway you can't tell what sway bars are installed. They aren't doing much when the car is going in a straight line and there's no body roll. But when you hit a turn or a high speed curve you want a strong set of sway bars to keep the body from rolling and keep the car planted and powering through the turn. H&R sway bars were designed to do that perfectly.

If you read my stuff I think it's apparent that I research pretty thoroughly. I don't just read but I talk to tech's, service managers, shop owners who have much hands-on experience. Sometimes I know automotive engineers and racing engineers who are helpful. Believe me that I researched the bushings thoroughly. I know some guys who can ship them to the UK. Just PM me.

Are you RWD or xDrive? Front control arms appear the same but are different part numbers? Critical to order the correct parts when you do.

I personally wouldn't do sway bars and bushings at the same time. Do the sways first and drive the car to really get to know the suspension with the body roll removed. It's not like springs and shocks where the labor completely overlaps.

Every time that I've done multiple changes at once, I've eventually regretted it because I can't tell what change was responsible for what I'm feeling when I drive. Then if I want to make an adjustment or an addition, what do I do because it's all mixed together by the overlapping installations?
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      09-16-2020, 12:27 PM   #32
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well unfortunately, i'm struggling to source the H&R kit i need anywhere in the UK or europe. Lots of places in US...i've asked a couple what they'd charge to ship. Not paying over the odds for shipping though, so the next best solution is the Eibach kit which has a slightly softer rear - probably just as well as i'm not planning to fit the LSD until next Spring.

I'm also going with the B14 Bilstein kit, seems like it'll be nice and stiff.....just how i like it - no real proof of that, people have commented on the forum saying they are comparable to the KW V1's but stiffer. Also they seem like good value for money, i can't find much detail about the Koni sport shocks - they don't seem as 'track focused', but i could be totally wrong there........without any data i don't really know other than peoples forum comments (not exactly scientific).


I've not been able to find specific details on the spring rates for these coilovers anywhere - have messaged Bilstein to comment on how much stiffer (if at all) the B14 coilover kit is vs the B12 shocks and springs kit.

Total spend including labour for the sway bars comes to 1522.50. Which is bang on budget.

I'll have to buy the camber plates in January as the final piece.

EDIT: i contacted H&R, turns out the part number for the sway bar kit is different for europe: 33895-2
same price as the Eibach, and easily available.
Not sure which sway kit to go with now.....? help?!

i've just ordered the bilstein B14's today...........fingers crossed it stops the pitching.

Last edited by gippy; 09-17-2020 at 03:39 AM..
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      09-17-2020, 11:33 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gippy View Post
well unfortunately, i'm struggling to source the H&R kit i need anywhere in the UK or europe. Lots of places in US...i've asked a couple what they'd charge to ship. Not paying over the odds for shipping though, so the next best solution is the Eibach kit which has a slightly softer rear - probably just as well as i'm not planning to fit the LSD until next Spring.

I'm also going with the B14 Bilstein kit, seems like it'll be nice and stiff.....just how i like it - no real proof of that, people have commented on the forum saying they are comparable to the KW V1's but stiffer. Also they seem like good value for money, i can't find much detail about the Koni sport shocks - they don't seem as 'track focused', but i could be totally wrong there........without any data i don't really know other than peoples forum comments (not exactly scientific).


I've not been able to find specific details on the spring rates for these coilovers anywhere - have messaged Bilstein to comment on how much stiffer (if at all) the B14 coilover kit is vs the B12 shocks and springs kit.

Total spend including labour for the sway bars comes to £1522.50. Which is bang on budget.

I'll have to buy the camber plates in January as the final piece.

EDIT: i contacted H&R, turns out the part number for the sway bar kit is different for europe: 33895-2
same price as the Eibach, and easily available.
Not sure which sway kit to go with now.....? help?!

i've just ordered the bilstein B14's today...........fingers crossed it stops the pitching.
I just had a conversation a few weeks ago about sway-bars with my buddy. He builds very fast BMW race cars for over 30 years and has racing experience himself. He said most of the fastest guys prefer large front bars and something closer to stock size rear sways. They're able to cary more speed through the corners that way, as well as put the power down earlier. So going with Eibach is not a bad idea. I'm taking this approach now as well. Going out with big front and stock rear and see how it handles. Then I'll increase the rear to whatever level I need from there without going too large. Unfortunately my car is xDrive and the front sway I got didn't fit (was supposed to). And I'm just too busy to drop the front subframe anytime soon. So it'll have to wait for next season.
I don't have experience with Bilstein coilovers. I didn't like their B8 shocks. But their coilover set should out perform pretty much any shock and spring combo on the track. I will say the B8's with Swift Spec-R springs was flatter on the track than my current KW V3's on full firm.
Definitely a good move to get the camber plates. It's really the single most important mod for tracking (suspension wise anyway). It's the only way to get the front end turn in, traction and have you front tire's outer edge survive.
Just 1 recommendation. Since you're going to have the rear subframe dropped and are paying to do it, put in some subframe bushings while you're at it to save labor. I do agree with the incremental change philosophy, but you will eventually change them any. Once you get sways and coils done, it'll be apparent how soft the rear of the car really is. At least add some Powerflex Black drop in bushings if you don't want to press them at this point. I did that and it made a substantial difference to the rear of the car staying inline for quick transitions and putting power down.
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      09-17-2020, 12:51 PM   #34
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sway bars, shmay bars...you barely need those....do the bushings instead brother, you won't be sorry.

you live in a world where multiple mods can be done once...live now, save later!

Last edited by brigade24; 09-17-2020 at 12:52 PM.. Reason: claritin clarity
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      09-17-2020, 03:42 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_du View Post
I just had a conversation a few weeks ago about sway-bars with my buddy. He builds very fast BMW race cars for over 30 years and has racing experience himself. He said most of the fastest guys prefer large front bars and something closer to stock size rear sways. They're able to cary more speed through the corners that way, as well as put the power down earlier. So going with Eibach is not a bad idea. I'm taking this approach now as well. Going out with big front and stock rear and see how it handles. Then I'll increase the rear to whatever level I need from there without going too large. Unfortunately my car is xDrive and the front sway I got didn't fit (was supposed to). And I'm just too busy to drop the front subframe anytime soon. So it'll have to wait for next season.
I don't have experience with Bilstein coilovers. I didn't like their B8 shocks. But their coilover set should out perform pretty much any shock and spring combo on the track. I will say the B8's with Swift Spec-R springs was flatter on the track than my current KW V3's on full firm.
Definitely a good move to get the camber plates. It's really the single most important mod for tracking (suspension wise anyway). It's the only way to get the front end turn in, traction and have you front tire's outer edge survive.
Just 1 recommendation. Since you're going to have the rear subframe dropped and are paying to do it, put in some subframe bushings while you're at it to save labor. I do agree with the incremental change philosophy, but you will eventually change them any. Once you get sways and coils done, it'll be apparent how soft the rear of the car really is. At least add some Powerflex Black drop in bushings if you don't want to press them at this point. I did that and it made a substantial difference to the rear of the car staying inline for quick transitions and putting power down.
what didn't you like about the B8's?

They feel stiff AF on sharp bumps for daily driving, but other than that they are pretty smooth and keep the car flat like you mentioned. I don't even feel like i really would want/need sways. my tire is a couple millimeters from front my fender and its so stiff it doesn't even rub the liner.
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      09-18-2020, 05:18 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brigade24 View Post
sway bars, shmay bars...you barely need those....do the bushings instead brother, you won't be sorry.

you live in a world where multiple mods can be done once...live now, save later!
so what bushings do i need?
im' going to plunge into ISTA to understanding how many and where located.

EDIT: useful diagram below from powerflex. Looks like the ones i should change when replacing the sway bars (that make sense to change at the same time, excluding the sway bar ones as they come with the kit), are just 19 + 20 = the rear subframe front + rear bushes.

The rest i can do on my own if i feel the need to, without having to do anything complicated like lowering subframes. Right?

browsing around the forums, looks like i should look into
- rear subframe bushings - Solid delrin https://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensi...shing-Set.html

or https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...ame-mount-kit/

https://www.akgmotorsport.com/produc...-f22-2-series/ alternative?

A number of forum posts i've come across suggest that these bushes are not suitable for street, because of the additional bumps etc.. not found on a track. And therefore could deform and give me a headache.
I need to find out if these rear subframe bushings will be useable for daily road use and not cause damage....... the car will be doing anywhere up to 10000 miles annually.

- rear differential bushing (going to ignore for now)
- front control arm bushings. (VAC monoball)

furthmore, reading around, it sounds like Monoball might be my best bet due to excess wear reported on control arm poly bushes? according to a post by Watsey


Last edited by gippy; 09-18-2020 at 06:49 AM..
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      09-18-2020, 12:30 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gippy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by brigade24 View Post
sway bars, shmay bars...you barely need those....do the bushings instead brother, you won't be sorry.

you live in a world where multiple mods can be done once...live now, save later!
so what bushings do i need?
im' going to plunge into ISTA to understanding how many and where located.

EDIT: useful diagram below from powerflex. Looks like the ones i should change when replacing the sway bars (that make sense to change at the same time, excluding the sway bar ones as they come with the kit), are just 19 + 20 = the rear subframe front + rear bushes.

The rest i can do on my own if i feel the need to, without having to do anything complicated like lowering subframes. Right?

browsing around the forums, looks like i should look into
- rear subframe bushings - Solid delrin https://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensi...shing-Set.html

or https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...ame-mount-kit/

https://www.akgmotorsport.com/produc...-f22-2-series/ alternative?

A number of forum posts i've come across suggest that these bushes are not suitable for street, because of the additional bumps etc.. not found on a track. And therefore could deform and give me a headache.
I need to find out if these rear subframe bushings will be useable for daily road use and not cause damage....... the car will be doing anywhere up to 10000 miles annually.

- rear differential bushing (going to ignore for now)
- front control arm bushings. (VAC monoball)

furthmore, reading around, it sounds like Monoball might be my best bet due to excess wear reported on control arm poly bushes? according to a post by Watsey

Subframe bushings I went for powerflex black inserts instead of full replacement, vibrations are OK.

Avoid poly bushes, I've been there and back, unreliable and too flexible; monoball on thrust arms is the way to go.
Millway is top quality and now has a street version which should be great I think, didn't exist when I changed mine.

https://www.millway.se/front-control...w-f20-f30.html
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2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid 3 - mods:
M Performance BBK - F80 struts brace - Quaife LSD - Koni Sport & ST sport springs - Millway Camber Plates and monoball - Akrapovic Exhaust - HJS EU6 catted downpipe - Wagner Evo2 Comp IC - BMC air filter - Powerflex Black Subframe Bushings - Bimmertech amp with Focal speakers
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      09-18-2020, 10:37 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gippy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by brigade24 View Post
sway bars, shmay bars...you barely need those....do the bushings instead brother, you won't be sorry.

you live in a world where multiple mods can be done once...live now, save later!
so what bushings do i need?
im' going to plunge into ISTA to understanding how many and where located.

EDIT: useful diagram below from powerflex. Looks like the ones i should change when replacing the sway bars (that make sense to change at the same time, excluding the sway bar ones as they come with the kit), are just 19 + 20 = the rear subframe front + rear bushes.

The rest i can do on my own if i feel the need to, without having to do anything complicated like lowering subframes. Right?

browsing around the forums, looks like i should look into
- rear subframe bushings - Solid delrin https://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensi...shing-Set.html

or https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...ame-mount-kit/

https://www.akgmotorsport.com/produc...-f22-2-series/ alternative?

A number of forum posts i've come across suggest that these bushes are not suitable for street, because of the additional bumps etc.. not found on a track. And therefore could deform and give me a headache.
I need to find out if these rear subframe bushings will be useable for daily road use and not cause damage....... the car will be doing anywhere up to 10000 miles annually.

- rear differential bushing (going to ignore for now)
- front control arm bushings. (VAC monoball)

furthmore, reading around, it sounds like Monoball might be my best bet due to excess wear reported on control arm poly bushes? according to a post by Watsey

[IMG]https://www.powerflex.co.uk/resize_i....jpg&w=600[/IMG]
You're on the right path for the bushings. I did a bunch or research, like you're doing. But ultimately I decided on doing the full arm replacements in the rear with solid ball joints. But since my car isn't a race car, I made sure they're sealed. There's not a ton of options a at the moment for non-M cars, but there's a few. I think I have about 2 bushings left in the rear. But since the rear is very stable and predictable at this point, I'm not in a rush. I've you've checked out the VAC Monoballs thread, then you know my experience with poly in the front. And I'm not the only one who had them not hold up.
Regarding the rear subframe, I don't have experience with the different solid mounts yet so I can't really give a lot of advice there. But I'm happy with the inserts for the time, so I'll just wait until my car doesn't see daily duty before swapping. The rear diff bushings are connected to the drive train. In my experience this will bring a lot of gear whine when installed. Since there's little benefit other than slightly better throttle response for me at this point, it really isn't necessary. That may change for you with rwd and when you install an lsd. But holding off to focus on the rest of the suspension is a good idea for now in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blumagic View Post

what didn't you like about the B8's?

They feel stiff AF on sharp bumps for daily driving, but other than that they are pretty smooth and keep the car flat like you mentioned. I don't even feel like i really would want/need sways. my tire is a couple millimeters from front my fender and its so stiff it doesn't even rub the liner.
That's exactly why I didn't like them. Harsh over small bumps, then too soft over large. When I hit a large bump they'd just blow through and bottom out. The car never felt very stable. And they were pretty much shot within 2 years. farKLe! Had a good post a while back where he had shock synod of B6's. There may be a little difference but most likely they're pretty much the same.

Bilstein B6 Shock Dynos https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1595506
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      09-19-2020, 12:06 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_du View Post
But ultimately I decided on doing the full arm replacements in the rear with solid ball joints. But since my car isn't a race car, I made sure they're sealed. There's not a ton of options a at the moment for non-M cars, but there's a few. I
Do you have options to recommend for this? I think I saw Megan racing have a product, do you know of other options?

Thanks
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2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid 3 - mods:
M Performance BBK - F80 struts brace - Quaife LSD - Koni Sport & ST sport springs - Millway Camber Plates and monoball - Akrapovic Exhaust - HJS EU6 catted downpipe - Wagner Evo2 Comp IC - BMC air filter - Powerflex Black Subframe Bushings - Bimmertech amp with Focal speakers
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      09-19-2020, 12:25 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancelot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_du View Post
But ultimately I decided on doing the full arm replacements in the rear with solid ball joints. But since my car isn't a race car, I made sure they're sealed. There's not a ton of options a at the moment for non-M cars, but there's a few. I
Do you have options to recommend for this? I think I saw Megan racing have a product, do you know of other options?

Thanks
I've used a combination of Megan and Godspeed because I couldn't find any other options a couple years ago when I did them. I know a lot of people will say they're cheap or not well made. They don't seem premium, are sealed and robust enough. And I'm not sure the mileage I've put on them. Probably somewhere north of 20k, and they've made it through winter and track use. They make a good bang for the buck mod. I'd use them again.
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      09-19-2020, 02:08 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by skier_du View Post
I've used a combination of Megan and Godspeed because I couldn't find any other options a couple years ago when I did them. I know a lot of people will say they're cheap or not well made. They don't seem premium, are sealed and robust enough. And I'm not sure the mileage I've put on them. Probably somewhere north of 20k, and they've made it through winter and track use. They make a good bang for the buck mod. I'd use them again.
Looks nice and solid to me!
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2014 M Sport ActiveHybrid 3 - mods:
M Performance BBK - F80 struts brace - Quaife LSD - Koni Sport & ST sport springs - Millway Camber Plates and monoball - Akrapovic Exhaust - HJS EU6 catted downpipe - Wagner Evo2 Comp IC - BMC air filter - Powerflex Black Subframe Bushings - Bimmertech amp with Focal speakers
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      09-19-2020, 06:24 AM   #42
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https://strongflex.us/e81-e82-e87-e8...553526653.html

https://www.strongflex.eu/en/bmw-e81...553526639.html

these say they fit f30 as well, good company and cheap.
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      09-19-2020, 02:09 PM   #43
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soooo a small footnote, an exige cup 380 has a smoother ride over bumpy roads than my car, i found out today.

Actually more comfortable
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      09-19-2020, 10:40 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Do you have options to recommend for this? I think I saw Megan racing have a product, do you know of other options?

Thanks
I have the full Megan Racing rear arm set. They're manufactured by Hardrace and the monoballs are sealed. From what I could find, it seems like Godspeed parts could be a previous revision, vs Megan/Hardrace are the latest version parts.

They're solid parts, but I can't really say they're worth it for a daily driver, and I think it's even debatable whether they're worth it for a track car. I didn't notice any NVH increase with them, which is nice.

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