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      08-12-2020, 11:53 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by BMW DIY Guy View Post
I am driving VERY little right now, so this really is all I can share. I pulled some very brief WOT pulls while out running errands () so are not like dyno quality. Just brief WOT as road and traffic conditions would allow.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f30...0b434cf74fb0f3


https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f30...90c6691455c1e4
Looks like it can hold 19 psi until about 4800 and then its starts to trail off slightly. Could fall faster at higher RPM (logs stop a little early as he said). WGDC is actually pretty good for 19psi. I assume that would continue to increase in the upper RPM as well, but its surprisingly low for that amount of boost on stock turbo. Boost control very good though.

Timing is also pretty conservative (like because of the 92 WA fuel) and not great in one of the logs. Most the power is coming from boost.
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      08-12-2020, 12:37 PM   #24
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Here is one more log from the same day.. WOT pull in 3rd, shift to 4th and continue..

Again, street logs so less than ideal conditions:

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f30...729b5413efb752
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      08-12-2020, 01:25 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by BMW DIY Guy View Post
Here is one more log from the same day.. WOT pull in 3rd, shift to 4th and continue..

Again, street logs so less than ideal conditions:

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f30...729b5413efb752
Now this log is very interesting and highlights a couple of more 'advanced' concepts i would say... didnt even think about these factors until looking at this logs compared with the previous ones.

At a basic level, timing is for lack of a better word pretty awful. In 3rd it goes negative on all cylinders and generally speaking there is a ton of timing being pulled across the board in both gears.

This is there is gets interesting...

This logs shows you making more boost than in the other 4th gear logs, up to 20psi in 3rd and ~20psi and even a little more throughout most of 4th. At the same time, WGDC is lower than in the other 4th gear pulls... which at the surface seems to make no sense if these were on the same day with the same hardware, etc.

But the plot thickens when you look at timing. During the 4th gear pull right before 4k rpm a massive amount of timing gets pulled and cylinders go negative. At the same time boost starts to rise and WGDC falls simultaneously. Seem counter intuitive unless you realize that EGTs are going to skyrocket when you pull timing (especially when it goes negative). I am almost certain that this is a cascading effect of timing getting pulled causing EGTs to increase, then all that extra heat/energy from the high EGTs is causing the turbo to spool up even more, which causes the overboost and a decrease in WGDC at the same time.

Boost starts to fall back down as timing is fed back in, but then you shift into 4th and timing has not fully recovered. It starts to recover a little but then gets pulled again (especially cyl 3) and boost creeps back up before falling back down slightly as timing becomes positive again after about 4300 rpm.

Bottom line is this logs shows the very interesting effect that timing has on EGTs and in turn WGDC and boost. There are no EGT sensors on these cars so its not in the log, but i imagine they had to be through the roof (think glowing manifold during a long pull). MHD has a calculated EGT value that would have been very interesting to see.

I would also note that there is no throttle closure from the overboost, which is characteristic of a BM3-ish tune (and unlike MHD and load based tunes).

I would be very interested to see what your tuner says about this log.
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      08-12-2020, 01:32 PM   #26
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Really appreciate the review as I dont even pretend to read logs well beyond the most simplistic info.

I have all of the logs off to Cary for review as well, and asked that they take a very close look at it, to ensure not only things are where they should be, but everything is healthy.
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      08-12-2020, 01:45 PM   #27
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Oh and side note.. I actually have MHD with a logging only license so could actually pull logs from there as well.
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      08-12-2020, 01:52 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Now this log is very interesting and highlights a couple of more 'advanced' concepts i would say... didnt even think about these factors until looking at this logs compared with the previous ones.

At a basic level, timing is for lack of a better word pretty awful. In 3rd it goes negative on all cylinders and generally speaking there is a ton of timing being pulled across the board in both gears.

This is there is gets interesting...

This logs shows you making more boost than in the other 4th gear logs, up to 20psi in 3rd and ~20psi and even a little more throughout most of 4th. At the same time, WGDC is lower than in the other 4th gear pulls... which at the surface seems to make no sense if these were on the same day with the same hardware, etc.

But the plot thickens when you look at timing. During the 4th gear pull right before 4k rpm a massive amount of timing gets pulled and cylinders go negative. At the same time boost starts to rise and WGDC falls simultaneously. Seem counter intuitive unless you realize that EGTs are going to skyrocket when you pull timing (especially when it goes negative). I am almost certain that this is a cascading effect of timing getting pulled causing EGTs to increase, then all that extra heat/energy from the high EGTs is causing the turbo to spool up even more, which causes the overboost and a decrease in WGDC at the same time.

Boost starts to fall back down as timing is fed back in, but then you shift into 4th and timing has not fully recovered. It starts to recover a little but then gets pulled again (especially cyl 3) and boost creeps back up before falling back down slightly as timing becomes positive again after about 4300 rpm.

Bottom line is this logs shows the very interesting effect that timing has on EGTs and in turn WGDC and boost. There are no EGT sensors on these cars so its not in the log, but i imagine they had to be through the roof (think glowing manifold during a long pull). MHD has a calculated EGT value that would have been very interesting to see.

I would also note that there is no throttle closure from the overboost, which is characteristic of a BM3-ish tune (and unlike MHD and load based tunes).

I would be very interested to see what your tuner says about this log.
Great post.

Can you explain a bit on why/how timing drops effect EGTs and why increased EGT causes higher boost?
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      08-12-2020, 01:57 PM   #29
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thanks.. whenever you get a chance and can go to at least 6500 please do and post back. i need to see 6k+

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      08-12-2020, 01:59 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Great post.

Can you explain a bit on why/how timing drops effect EGTs and why increased EGT causes higher boost?
EGTs and timing, simple summary:


Basically, when you pull timing, you leave less time for the combustion to take place in the cylinder where you want it.

The impact of higher EGTs on boost is easier to think of in terms of energy... higher temperature exhaust has more energy. The turbo takes the energy from the exhaust gases and uses it to spool the turbo. If the exhaust gases are higher temperature and have more energy, the turbo has more energy 'available' in the exhaust gases to spool. This same energy concept is applied all over the place - think about lean spool (lean AFR increases EGTs), 2step LC (which pulls timing generally), and even people who heat wrap manifolds to keep all that heat in (also under hood heat management aspect to this, but the idea of keeping the energy in the manifold and exhaust gases is the same).
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      08-12-2020, 02:00 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom10R View Post
thanks.. whenever you get a chance and can go to at least 6500 please do and post back. i need to see 6k+

appreciate it and no rush
Candidly going to be a huge challenge.. my way out in the country 1.5 mile straight road (with zero cross roads, houses or anything, just farm fields) got me a $600 ticket for pulling logs out there. First stater I have seen on that road EVER.

Best I can do right now is quick WOT logs, conditions permitting, or back on a dyno sometime.
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      08-12-2020, 03:39 PM   #32
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Just to add another data point, I did 10 map revisions with Cary and stopped tuning with him bc none of the maps were stable and all had issues in the logs. He said I had issues with plugs, coils, etc. Couldnt be the tune. Ive tuned 1000s of BMWs.

Halim, on the other hand, provided 5 super stable and smooth revisions on the same hardware with no issues and more power.

Cary is all hype, and if you blow your motor on his tune, well, its not his fault....
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      08-12-2020, 03:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Just to add another data point, I did 10 map revisions with Cary and stopped tuning with him bc none of the maps were stable and all had issues in the logs. He said I had issues with plugs, coils, etc. Couldnt be the tune. Ive tuned 1000s of BMWs.

Halim, on the other hand, provided 5 super stable and smooth revisions on the same hardware with no issues and more power.

Cary is all hype, and if you blow your motor on his tune, well, its not his fault....
Sorry to hear that.. heard nothing but great things about Cary including coming from some leading folks in the industry.
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      08-12-2020, 04:28 PM   #34
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Sorry to hear that.. heard nothing but great things about Cary including coming from some leading folks in the industry.
Your logs are indicating otherwise at the moment, but well sideline my comment until you hear back about your tune since thats what most important.
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      08-12-2020, 04:32 PM   #35
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Oh and side note.. I actually have MHD with a logging only license so could actually pull logs from there as well.
I just saw this. That might be a good idea, especially because its much easier to see timing corrections, and you can enable EGT estimates as well. Overall more parameters in MHD i believe.
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      08-12-2020, 04:49 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Your logs are indicating otherwise at the moment, but well sideline my comment until you hear back about your tune since thats what most important.
I appreciate that and sorry you had a bad experience there, but openly mine has been nothing but positive. I have logs from a less than ideal scenario on a car that is barely driven these days, so just taking it a piece at a time. There are SO many possible variables involved in these logs, its amazing folks can do what they do with them.

The tune I got from Cary was amazing, and took my car that was struggling at times, to the ludicrous rocket it is now... so please don't read any criticism from ME into my tune or the work from Cary. I was referred to him by a true expert, and I have been nothing but happy so far.
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      08-12-2020, 04:51 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
I just saw this. That might be a good idea, especially because its much easier to see timing corrections, and you can enable EGT estimates as well. Overall more parameters in MHD i believe.
and my MHD login is failing and their password recovery has yet to send the email (after like 10 requests). I will get it worked out.
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      08-12-2020, 06:07 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by BMW DIY Guy View Post
I appreciate that and sorry you had a bad experience there, but openly mine has been nothing but positive. I have logs from a less than ideal scenario on a car that is barely driven these days, so just taking it a piece at a time. There are SO many possible variables involved in these logs, its amazing folks can do what they do with them.

The tune I got from Cary was amazing, and took my car that was struggling at times, to the ludicrous rocket it is now... so please don't read any criticism from ME into my tune or the work from Cary. I was referred to him by a true expert, and I have been nothing but happy so far.
Cool. Let's see how all this shakes out.
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      08-13-2020, 05:44 PM   #39
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Dynocom, not a Dynojet to be able to compare better with others.

No stock map baseline, and his Jordan tune only made 10hp more (on a cooler day) than his Active custom tune. Def not going to hold up in the summer.
Not much of a temp increase or weather condition change.
FF to ~10min mark for dyno comparisons

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      08-13-2020, 06:10 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by 5w20 View Post
Not much of a temp increase or weather condition change.
FF to ~10min mark for dyno comparisons

This is the response I gave when the same video was posted in the M2 section:

“I didn’t watch all these vids, but this car made more power on the BM3 OTS tune in a different “awesome” vid than Cary Jordan’s custom tune on the same car.

What was the reason given? High IATs? Then the conclusion is “I need meth”, not that the custom tune didn’t provide any real benefits or that it was helping to create higher IATs, negating any real benefit? Where are the log files to show how the tunes responded to IAT? A 10F ambient difference isn’t going to be the reason a custom tune performed worse than OTS.

The reality is the BM3 OTS tunes are better suited than any custom tune you’ll get on the same FBO hardware. If you bolt on a bigger turbo or go ethanol (and an HPFP to go with either), then you need a custom tune (or soon to come BM3 Stg 2+ E30-50 OTS). And in my experience, there are better options than Cary.

Please someone who has time to watch all these videos tell me I’m wrong. It’s like someone made a YouTube video out of what we all here have already known since OTS 5.8 came out almost a year ago—it’s the max power you’ll get while being adaptable enough to handle summer and winter ambient temps with no drivability issues.”
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      08-13-2020, 06:28 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
This is the response I gave when the same video was posted in the M2 section:

“I didn’t watch all these vids, but this car made more power on the BM3 OTS tune in a different “awesome” vid than Cary Jordan’s custom tune on the same car.

What was the reason given? High IATs? Then the conclusion is “I need meth”, not that the custom tune didn’t provide any real benefits or that it was helping to create higher IATs, negating any real benefit? Where are the log files to show how the tunes responded to IAT? A 10F ambient difference isn’t going to be the reason a custom tune performed worse than OTS.

The reality is the BM3 OTS tunes are better suited than any custom tune you’ll get on the same FBO hardware. If you bolt on a bigger turbo or go ethanol (and an HPFP to go with either), then you need a custom tune (or soon to come BM3 Stg 2+ E30-50 OTS). And in my experience, there are better options than Cary.

Please someone who has time to watch all these videos tell me I’m wrong. It’s like someone made a YouTube video out of what we all here have already known since OTS 5.8 came out almost a year ago—it’s the max power you’ll get while being adaptable enough to handle summer and winter ambient temps with no drivability issues.”
+1 for everything here. I also didnt watch the entire video (nor his older ones except i think his previous dyno video that was linked) but it basically seems like he added turbo inlet, DV, and custom tune and made less power, only to blame it on IATs and 10 degree hotter ambient temp lol? Sure he made a little more torque down low, because the custom tune probably turned up the boost a little more over OTS map and like other Cary tunes, probably allowed significantly overboost over target without any throttle closure, so some boost was gained in the lower RPMs where the stock turbo can actually provide it. As ZM2 alluded to this could have made IATs even worse, especially when you are basically maxing a turbo and pushing it further out of its efficiency range.

Also agree there is really no reason at all to get a custom tune with FBO; you need HPFP, turbo upgrade, or both to really benefit, and ethanol mix to reap the greatest benefits.

I think an important lesson here from this video and BMWDIYGUYs recent logs (that ZM2 is also getting at) is that you need to make sure your custom tune works under all possible driving conditions you will be driving in. You dont want to get a custom tune in the winter with 50F ambient temps only to have it offer terrible performance and other issues in the summer when its 90+F outside.
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      08-13-2020, 06:35 PM   #42
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Candidly I am unclear where by proxy suddenly my tune has issues? It has been running strong and with significant improvement over what I had before.

Also to be 100% fair to Active, who spent a VERY considerable amount of time with me and my tune, we were starting to run into my slipping clutch which made logs inconsistent and troubling at times. I am convinced now that it was my clutch slipping and exactly ZERO to due with issues with my AA tune.

I was given an opportunity to try BM3, and then work with Cary as a way of trying something new, and of course I leapt at it. I was and am happy with AA, and continue to be happy with Cary and my custom tune which was stronger than the OTS for me.

Its a little furstrating when what feels like was a simple question about tunes and options has turned into bashing one of the primary BM3 custom tuners, while using my logs (which I marked as HIGHLY suspect due to lack of driving, short WOT bursts and others) as somehow the evidence against him!

If you dont like Cary.. awesome.. that is your opinion, and thats a bummer but your opinion. Please don't use my work, logs or tunes as weapons against him, as that is not the case.
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      08-13-2020, 06:51 PM   #43
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Candidly I am unclear where by proxy suddenly my tune has issues? It has been running strong and with significant improvement over what I had before.

Also to be 100% fair to Active, who spent a VERY considerable amount of time with me and my tune, we were starting to run into my slipping clutch which made logs inconsistent and troubling at times. I am convinced now that it was my clutch slipping and exactly ZERO to due with issues with my AA tune.

I was given an opportunity to try BM3, and then work with Cary as a way of trying something new, and of course I leapt at it. I was and am happy with AA, and continue to be happy with Cary and my custom tune which was stronger than the OTS for me.

Its a little furstrating when what feels like was a simple question about tunes and options has turned into bashing one of the primary BM3 custom tuners, while using my logs (which I marked as HIGHLY suspect due to lack of driving, short WOT bursts and others) as somehow the evidence against him!

If you dont like Cary.. awesome.. that is your opinion, and thats a bummer but your opinion. Please don't use my work, logs or tunes as weapons against him, as that is not the case.
Let's just say your logs didnt look great and the most recent one with 3-4 gear pull had some of the worst, arguably dangerous timing, i have ever seen. Not to mention the overboost and other concerns. To me, a tune that allows and sometimes even intentionally commands overboost is unacceptable, but i totally understand that plenty of people are fine with that as long as it feels fast. Its the BM3 and Cary way. To each his own.

I'm glad you are happy with your custom tune, but if i saw logs like yours, i wouldnt run it. To be clear, I was in no way bashing Cary... Merely discussing the data that was presented in your logs and more recently in the video that was linked above. If the data shows (let's call it potential) issues with the tune and that is interpreted as bashing Cary, well I can't control that. Also, to be clear, you have a upgraded HPFP so it makes sense a custom tune can push you further than a OTS map (as we both mentioned in our posts above).

Also, why are the logs suspect because of lack of driving? The car should run fine even if you drive it once a month unless you have fuel that has aged so badly it has lost octane, which i find very unlikely. I am in the same boat and drive my car maybe once every 2 weeks now, and i am running ethanol which is known to lose fuel quality faster than pump gas. And when i do drive, i am basically WOT every chance i get after the car warms up since its driving for fun and not commuting to work. So those are not reasons why the logs should show the tune is performing subpar. The bottom line is that logs are evidence because they are unbiased data.

It's not about using your build/car/tune/work as a weapon against him... again; merely discussing what the data shows and if the data from the tunes doesnt look good... well then that speaks for itself. I personally dont have anything against Cary at all nor do i care what other people think about him because i have no plans to get a custom tune.

The thread spiraling out into left field is typical of the forums, lol.
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      08-13-2020, 06:57 PM   #44
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Side note, I am hoping to get some dyno time soon, and if so will run S2 OTS and the custom tune to get comparisons in general.

Good feedback.
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