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      04-09-2018, 01:53 AM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSociety View Post
cookiesowns and I were having a little chat about EGT's
Sharing is caring, what did you guys discuss?
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      04-09-2018, 09:36 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by ceedawg View Post
Sharing is caring, what did you guys discuss?
You guys are over-reacting a bit too much, #paranoia
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      04-09-2018, 09:42 AM   #201
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You guys are over-reacting a bit too much, #paranoia
You put it out there bossman!! lmaooo
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      04-09-2018, 10:22 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by oceanview View Post
I finally had the chance to do the AA flash drive log at the same place as I did with the Stock flash drive log a few weeks ago.

I will do some more logging with the summer tires on, once I have more time. I just wanted to share this with you hungry folks

Conditions:
- 335i touring F31, AT, RWD
- All Stock: cat, air intake, exhaust
- 98 ROZ gasoline on both pulls
- same place (flat road)
- Winter Tires 225/255/18"
- Launch Control by driver (as you can see on the graph I started around 2000-2200 rpm lifted the brake pedal and then floored it)
- SPORT mode (not SPORT +)
- AA pull had like 20 kilo less of gasoline loaded (1/2 full tank)



Stock flash 0-100 km/h:


AA Flash Stage1 0-100 km/h:






Stock flash 0-62 mph (0-60 is reached in 5.40 sec):


AA Flash Stage1 0-62 mph (0-60 is reached in 4.65 sec):
What are you using for logging my friend? I am just beating my head on my desk for like 3 days trying to come up with a better (and more accurate?) logging solution.
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      04-09-2018, 10:25 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by GPM View Post
Just because I could, I checked the EGT this morning. The temp spiked on lift off after full boost at 1585. Boost hit 15.2 and A/F was 11-12.

Normal cruise the EGT was around 1200-1300, A/F right around 14.7. I have no idea where the EGT sensor is, or if it has any correlation to the Cat temps, but its closest I could get with the Scangauge.
I appreciate this info and still trying to figure out if spiking to 1600 is the end of the world right now. I have like 5 emails out (sorry Nic!!) to Nic of AA for more info on the DP, temps, logging options..

Sitting at idle (assuming my logging is worth anything as I just dont know now) I am at like 800ish on the CAT sensor. Rolling driving, is roughly 1100-1200 or so, and then obviously the spike with current build to high 1500s and just barely 1600.

Are you running the catted Fabspeed DP?
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      04-09-2018, 11:22 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by BMW DIY Guy View Post
I appreciate this info and still trying to figure out if spiking to 1600 is the end of the world right now. I have like 5 emails out (sorry Nic!!) to Nic of AA for more info on the DP, temps, logging options..

Sitting at idle (assuming my logging is worth anything as I just dont know now) I am at like 800ish on the CAT sensor. Rolling driving, is roughly 1100-1200 or so, and then obviously the spike with current build to high 1500s and just barely 1600.

Are you running the catted Fabspeed DP?
No, stock DP.

I'll be interested to hear Nic's response. Silly little hashtags aside, I never think its a bad idea to ask questions, especially when you're dealing with very expensive equipment.

As I said earlier, I'd guess short spikes are not an issue but continued running at those temps could possibly cook a cat. At least according to those who manufacture them.

Since you're providing so much feedback to AA maybe they'll offer you a deal on a Simon 2 and software to continue your work. They could consider you an unpaid intern.
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      04-09-2018, 11:44 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPM View Post
No, stock DP.

I'll be interested to hear Nic's response. Silly little hashtags aside, I never think its a bad idea to ask questions, especially when you're dealing with very expensive equipment.

As I said earlier, I'd guess short spikes are not an issue but continued running at those temps could possibly cook a cat. At least according to those who manufacture them.

Since you're providing so much feedback to AA maybe they'll offer you a deal on a Simon 2 and software to continue your work. They could consider you an unpaid intern.
Yeah.. AA is and has been fantastic, and talked to a bunch of folks there. If I wasn't in WA (an in FL) I would probably be there physically all the time! *laugh* They have a great looking shop from the pics, and great cars there all the time.
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      04-09-2018, 12:33 PM   #206
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Found out the Simon 2 Cable is only available for the E series fellas. Guess Torque app is the one.
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      04-09-2018, 12:35 PM   #207
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On a side note (nothing to do with cat temps) - are you running the NGK 97506 gapped to .019 - .020 as recommended by Nic, or still on factory plugs?
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      04-09-2018, 01:36 PM   #208
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Some simple Googling searching shows that 1,200-1,600 F is a common and acceptable operating range for a cat, especially in later model cats where reduced emissions and fast light off is paramount. Cats like it hot. Of course is you're continually operating the cat in the 1,600+F range, you do risk melting it.

More power certainly generates more heat. One should expect that the life of the stock cat on a tuned BMW will be shortened. A catted aftermarket DP will help things, but again, that cat too will be compromised especially if the car is being raced for extended periods. Short bursts of power here and there shouldn't much of a cause for concern for a stock or aftermarket cat.

With the addition of more power, you are certainly reducing the life of the drivetrain, whether it be the cooling system, oiling system, headgasket, rod bearings, transmission, cat converter, etc. There is no "safe" way of modding a car. If you can't afford a catastrophic failure, then I'd strongly suggest NOT modding these motors. Costs to repair or replace the transmissions, head, and short block in these cars are astronomical. If you don't have at least $10K in a rainy day fund to fix a non-warrantied repair, I'd suggest that you not play the modding game, especially with a turbo BMW. Hell, I had a Stage I tuned 2012 WRX and had $10K set aside of a short replacement just in case.

Sure, the blocks are quite stout, but so many other things could be potentially break as you're pushing them outside the realm of what BMW designed them for. IMO, once you go beyond a 20% increase in power, you're walking on egg shells. People love to tout how strong these engines are (which there is some truth to it for sure), but bad things can and do happen, even to stock and lightly modded N55s.
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      04-09-2018, 01:48 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Some simple Googling searching shows that 1,200-1,600 F is a common and acceptable operating range for a cat, especially in later model cats where reduced emissions and fast light off is paramount. Cats like it hot. Of course is you're continually operating the cat in the 1,600+F range, you do risk melting it.

More power certainly generates more heat. One should expect that the life of the stock cat on a tuned BMW will be shortened. A catted aftermarket DP will help things, but again, that cat too will be compromised especially if the car is being raced for extended periods. Short bursts of power here and there shouldn't much of a cause for concern for a stock or aftermarket cat.

With the addition of more power, you are certainly reducing the life of the drivetrain, whether it be the cooling system, oiling system, headgasket, rod bearings, transmission, cat converter, etc. There is no "safe" way of modding a car. If you can't afford a catastrophic failure, then I'd strongly suggest NOT modding these motors. Costs to repair or replace the transmissions, head, and short block in these cars are astronomical. If you don't have at least $10K in a rainy day fund to fix a non-warrantied repair, I'd suggest that you not play the modding game, especially with a turbo BMW. Hell, I had a Stage I tuned 2012 WRX and had $10K set aside of a short replacement just in case.

Sure, the blocks are quite stout, but so many other things could be potentially break as you're pushing them outside the realm of what BMW designed them for. IMO, once you go beyond a 20% increase in power, you're walking on egg shells. People love to tout how strong these engines are (which there is some truth to it for sure), but bad things can and do happen, even to stock and lightly modded N55s.
Great perspective for sure and dead on.. obviously failures can happen in stock configs and increasing load on the frame, motor and all subcomponents could cause a failure that would otherwise never happen.

OEM CPs blowing apart are a great example even at stock boost.. but good points none the less.

I appreciate the cat info!
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      04-09-2018, 03:45 PM   #210
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What are you using for logging my friend? I am just beating my head on my desk for like 3 days trying to come up with a better (and more accurate?) logging solution.
I'm using the BMW M Performance Drive Analyzer (APP with bluetooth ODB-2 dongle)
https://shop.bmw.com/bmw-us/en_US/p/...lyzer/2450841/
This BMW labled version comes in different part#
61432450841 is for Android & iOS devices. There is also a version just for iOS or just for Android (for what ever reason). So make sure getting the one you want!

This is a BMW rebranded/redesigned product of the German company INATRONIC who also sells the product in a version available for many other cars they have in their database.
Two versions are available of DriveDeck
DriveDeck Sport and DriveDeck Sport PRO
DriveDeck Sport PRO has the same features as the BMW labled Drive Analyzer.

Here is the link to the english manual. (for Sport and Sport PRO)
https://drivedeck.de/media/wysiwyg/d...nglisch_v2.pdf
The PRO Version (and therefore also the BMW labled version) will additionally contain.
In Track Drive Mode logging of:
- Engine Power
- Torque
- Average and maximum values for Engine Power and Torqu
- Engine efficency in %
- power consumption in kWh

The Power Drive Mode (only available with PRO)

Here you can see a complete feature comparison (unfortunatelly in German only, but easy to understand)
https://drivedeck.de/driveanalyseren/

Not much on YouTube. Guess, another dirty review job is waiting for you
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      04-09-2018, 03:48 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Some simple Googling searching shows that 1,200-1,600 F is a common and acceptable operating range for a cat, especially in later model cats where reduced emissions and fast light off is paramount. Cats like it hot. Of course is you're continually operating the cat in the 1,600+F range, you do risk melting it.

More power certainly generates more heat. One should expect that the life of the stock cat on a tuned BMW will be shortened. A catted aftermarket DP will help things, but again, that cat too will be compromised especially if the car is being raced for extended periods. Short bursts of power here and there shouldn't much of a cause for concern for a stock or aftermarket cat.

With the addition of more power, you are certainly reducing the life of the drivetrain, whether it be the cooling system, oiling system, headgasket, rod bearings, transmission, cat converter, etc. There is no "safe" way of modding a car. If you can't afford a catastrophic failure, then I'd strongly suggest NOT modding these motors. Costs to repair or replace the transmissions, head, and short block in these cars are astronomical. If you don't have at least $10K in a rainy day fund to fix a non-warrantied repair, I'd suggest that you not play the modding game, especially with a turbo BMW. Hell, I had a Stage I tuned 2012 WRX and had $10K set aside of a short replacement just in case.

Sure, the blocks are quite stout, but so many other things could be potentially break as you're pushing them outside the realm of what BMW designed them for. IMO, once you go beyond a 20% increase in power, you're walking on egg shells. People love to tout how strong these engines are (which there is some truth to it for sure), but bad things can and do happen, even to stock and lightly modded N55s.
You pay to play! Don't think alot of these guys are too worried and one should not be surprised. But yes you list the risks. I would say do not be OCD about beating on the car. A few occasional bursts and no converter stall or clutch dumps and the car should be good to go. The meth route/advanced timing I am very leary of and stay away from. Play at your own risk! Coming from a 600 plus hp DSM guy yes, money to play with, I know what you mean!

PS Nic (AA)said that these cars occasionally will see 1600 1700 degree egts , so yes you are on point with that as well. I will consider going catless and adding a lil E85 to my 93 OCT
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Last edited by ceedawg; 04-09-2018 at 03:57 PM..
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      04-09-2018, 04:01 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by ceedawg View Post
You pay to play! Don't think alot of these guys are too worried and one should not be surprised. But yes you list the risks. I would say do not be OCD about beating on the car. A few occasional bursts and no converter stall or clutch dumps and the car should be good to go. The meth route/advanced timing I am very leary of and stay away from. Play at your own risk! Coming from a 600 plus hp DSM guy so money to play with I know what you mean!
Agreed, one shouldn't be OCD. Overall, the N55 powertrain is robust by common car standards and there are many safeguards that try to jump in to keep the things alive. However, the more power you add, the harder it is for that over-engineering and safeguard net to catch you. I'm certainly not a doom and gloom person at all, but I know the risks of modding cars just as I have since the mid-1990s.

Personally, I see no point in adding more than 10-20% hp/tq to these cars as they're already faster than 99%+ of the cars on the road already and rarely can you use that power often or for much duration. If I want a much faster car, I've learned it's far cheaper and less frustrating to buy a faster stock car in the first place.

If I've learned one thing about modding cars for nearly 25 years, it's that most aftermarket parts are FULL of compromise, don't fit like OEM, have NVH issues, etc. It's often a headache, especially powertrain and suspension parts. I don't want to drive stock, but I don't want some seriously worked over car either or else you're always screwing around with it or chasing down some gremlin.
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      04-09-2018, 04:35 PM   #213
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I'm going up to see the Scangauge engineer tomorrow morning. He's going go see what he can do to get me Cat Temp readings. If it works it will be interesting to see how it compares to EGT readings. All for very little if any real benefit to this discussion, but I tend to monitor the different gauges for any noticeable changes or anything that looks out of the ordinary. The one I watch most is IAT as our ambient temp is starting to rise and I try to dial it back as IATs rise.
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      04-10-2018, 09:53 AM   #214
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I have reached out and gotten positive responses from two more possible resources on this. As soon as I have better info, I will share here, but I think I may have at least one solution coming!
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      04-10-2018, 12:36 PM   #215
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Not meaning to derail the topic of the thread any further but I just got back from Linear Logic, the maker of Scangauge. Their engineer scanned my car and recorded everything the ECU is capable of reporting. Bank 1 Sensor 1 of the Cat was available, obvious since Torque Pro was getting it. Low and behold the reading for Cat Temp mirrored exactly the reading for EGT. I guess we now know where its getting EGT.

I mentioned to him that it would sure be nice if the Scangauge could log info. He was quite interested and asked why people would want that. As I explained how the enthusiast market used logging he mentioned that he had been toying with the idea. I talked to him about functionality and price points and told him there was a limited number of stand alone logging products available for the F30. Who knows, maybe they'll come up with something.
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      04-10-2018, 02:00 PM   #216
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Ok.. so one of the two only shows about half the stats we need, and doesnt actually log them. Worthless.

Pursuing the second option actively.
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      04-10-2018, 10:30 PM   #217
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So the second option just fell through.. still talking with them as they COULD unbundle their logging, they just haven't done it.

For cat temps, I ran logging around today.. looking 800f at idle, 1100 just just easy freeway driving and high 1200s under normal acceleration. At this point, assuming the (@^3^!*@*!! TP logs are accurate, I think I am ok.
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      04-11-2018, 08:11 AM   #218
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I'm surprised AA doesn't offer logging as part of the tune bundle like bm3 and MHD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW DIY Guy View Post
So the second option just fell through.. still talking with them as they COULD unbundle their logging, they just haven't done it.

For cat temps, I ran logging around today.. looking 800f at idle, 1100 just just easy freeway driving and high 1200s under normal acceleration. At this point, assuming the (@^3^!*@*!! TP logs are accurate, I think I am ok.
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      04-11-2018, 09:35 AM   #219
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So the second option just fell through.. still talking with them as they COULD unbundle their logging, they just haven't done it.

For cat temps, I ran logging around today.. looking 800f at idle, 1100 just just easy freeway driving and high 1200s under normal acceleration. At this point, assuming the (@^3^!*@*!! TP logs are accurate, I think I am ok.
From what I've seen monitoring EGT, which turned out to be the same as cat temps, your logs are accurate. Also, the consensus seems to be that high temp spikes aren't anything to be worried about.

Will still be interesting to see what AA has to say on the issue. I suspect they'll tell you everything is fine.
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      04-11-2018, 09:40 AM   #220
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I am looking into MHD right now, if they can just be used for logging, and also have an email conversation going with BM3.
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'Furiosa' F32 Build Thread
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