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      12-10-2018, 05:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
I think "torpedo Tesla" is a bit of an exaggeration, but with our current infrastructure, having a compromise between range and electric efficiency is actually pretty smart.

Think about it. For most of us, we either need our cars to go 50 miles per day, for commuting to work, or 500+ miles per day for a road trip. What is the point of having a car that can go 300 miles per day? It sounds good because that's almost the range ICE cars have, but ignores the fact that gas stations are everywhere and takes no more than a few minutes to fill up. Even IF you are road tripping to places that have superchargers, they take much longer to fill up and you are at the mercy of their availability.

If you could have a car that can drive 50 miles per day on pure electric, then you would almost never need to gill up on gasoline. For all intents and purposes, you have a pure electric car. If you want to go on a 1000 mile road trip, you can use the gasoline engine to get you there. If you want extra performance, your car will use both drivetrains for that.

To be clear, this is not a PERMANENT solution. It's meant to be a stop gap. It allows BMW to make a car for people who want an ICE car, a hybrid, and a pure EV easily. Once we figure out fast charging and there are chargers in as many places as there are gas stations, we can go pure EV, sure. But we are still far away from that reality. Most of the people that have 300 mile range Teslas drive about 50 miles per day and never really need the full capacity of their 75kWh battery packs.
That's a pretty simple perspective, albeit flawed...

The reason 200+ miles range is important (IMHO) is that it easily hits most peoples daily commute requirements and ALL THE OTHER little daily requirements that always creep in (kids, groceries, errands, etc). If you have 200+ miles range, and a 50 mile commute then you pretty much have all you need, plus plenty of buffer for life's "extras". You don't really have to give your range a second thought... No calculator necessary...

The other piece you are missing is that most families have 2+ cars. Typically, one car could be an EV and the other an ICE. Use BOTH for daily commutes and hop in the ICE for longer family trips. This is what we do. You could also simply rent an ICE for long trips depending on how often you need it. How many road trips in excess of 200 miles did YOU take last year?

Over the past 5 years, I've had 3 EV's. And over that period an EV has always been my daily driver. EV's are a permanent solution and they are only going to get better. Rivian will be releasing a 400+ mile pickup and SUV next year... The Tesla Roadster will have a 600 mil range in 2 years..

I started in a Volt (Great Car!) with a 48 mi range. I only had a 5 mile commute so it got the "daily" job done (inc groceries) pretty much without ever using any gas. But that is with a very short commute. With my 250 mi Tesla we don't even think about range (or gas) anymore. We just plug it in every night like our cell phones and we are done. ...and it doesn't matter if we forget a day (or more) to plug it in or even if I have to drive to Chicago and back (180 mi). I've never in my life ever even stopped at a public charger with any of my electric cars and I also have no idea what the current cost of gas is. Over 70% of EV owners charge their cars at home. Public chargers are a non-issue for non-EV drivers to worry about. The "Public Charging Infrastructure" is a mantra that's been fed to the Non-EV-Driving public. Personally, there simply is no way I'm gonna stop ANYWHERE for 30 minutes at a time on a trip (other than a hotel)...

You can break out your calculator and work up what you think your daily requirements might be, but 200+ miles is where its at. Its obvious we've had this technology to do this range for several years now, so why not?

The best range is the range you don't have to think about!
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      12-10-2018, 05:40 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
I'm pullin' for BMW! But it shouldn't have taken this long...

Meanwhile, the Model 3 outsold ALL BMW passenger cars combined in the US for the month of August. ...and it shows no signs of slowing down. Tesla is building and shipping 4500-5000 vehicles PER WEEK and they haven't even started shipping them to Europe (next month)!

https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-...assenger-cars/

Model 3 sales account for 36% of ALL BEV and PHEV vehicles sold this year in the US. (BMW 530e is number 9. i3/i8 didn't make the list)...

https://insideevs.com/the-chart-topp...cles-for-2018/
And Tesla just pasted Diamler in market value.

Before we know it Tesla will be Numero Uno.
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      12-10-2018, 06:12 PM   #25
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It's still just a slide deck. Show me the money.
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      12-10-2018, 06:53 PM   #26
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I think the story about BMW's "New powertrain" is a highly speculative one.
I could only see a car that was in highly concept state at which I doubt its real drivability, and I see some drawings.
There is no real car or platform, no real footage of testing etc.
Sorry, but anyone can make a concept and hire a toddler to make a drawing.
Most concepts dont make it to production and if they do, its also a question of when.
My opinion is that if a company doesnt have anything real to show, they cobble up a project like this.
Far to vague and abstract for me.
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      12-10-2018, 08:38 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eDrive View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
I'm pullin' for BMW! But it shouldn't have taken this long...

Meanwhile, the Model 3 outsold ALL BMW passenger cars combined in the US for the month of August. ...and it shows no signs of slowing down. Tesla is building and shipping 4500-5000 vehicles PER WEEK and they haven't even started shipping them to Europe (next month)!

https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-...assenger-cars/

Model 3 sales account for 36% of ALL BEV and PHEV vehicles sold this year in the US. (BMW 530e is number 9. i3/i8 didn't make the list)...

https://insideevs.com/the-chart-topp...cles-for-2018/
And Tesla just pasted Diamler in market value.

Before we know it Tesla will be Numero Uno.
Yup, sure it will.
I have to say Tesla started this very early and is leading this industry.
What's interesting is for me is that over 100 years ago, Nikola Tesla started this without any technology help, and said that we can wirelessly charge the car during driving.
Over 100 years later off advancement we still can't figure it out
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      12-10-2018, 10:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by eDrive View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
I'm pullin' for BMW! But it shouldn't have taken this long...

Meanwhile, the Model 3 outsold ALL BMW passenger cars combined in the US for the month of August. ...and it shows no signs of slowing down. Tesla is building and shipping 4500-5000 vehicles PER WEEK and they haven't even started shipping them to Europe (next month)!

https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-...assenger-cars/

Model 3 sales account for 36% of ALL BEV and PHEV vehicles sold this year in the US. (BMW 530e is number 9. i3/i8 didn't make the list)...

https://insideevs.com/the-chart-topp...cles-for-2018/
And Tesla just pasted Diamler in market value.

Before we know it Tesla will be Numero Uno.
Yup, sure it will.
I have to say Tesla started this very early and is leading this industry.
What's interesting is for me is that over 100 years ago, Nikola Tesla started this without any technology help, and said that we can wirelessly charge the car during driving.
Over 100 years later off advancement we still can't figure it out
We'd need wired roadways.

Eventually we'll have kerbside wireless charging.
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      12-11-2018, 10:59 AM   #29
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I'll still take ///M3 over "m3" lol
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      12-11-2018, 05:01 PM   #30
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Eventually we'll have kerbside wireless charging.
Long after I'm dead.
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      12-11-2018, 08:23 PM   #31
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I think most people here are not taking into account certain things. Despite all the hype about EVs, they only make up about 2% of light vehicle sales in US. BMW has thousands of investors and employees to feed, so they can't just blow money on bunch of EV only non flexible platforms and hope it works out. We have all seen a lackluster sales of their hybrid and i models, so they want to keep it safe.

I actually applaud them for making plug and play EV units, they can probably make additional money by selling the electric drivetrains.

Also, one more thing to point out about most EV (particularly Tesla car) sales- it just happens to be that those who can afford it usually have a house with a garage and can charge it at home. Once that initial demand gets satisfied, there will be a plateau in EV sales unless there will be huge changes everywhere that doesn't make it a hassle owning an EV if you don't have a place to charge overnight.

Massive switch to electric vehicles may happen fast in small EU countries but it is not going to happen anytime soon in US. Norway car sales are 50% EVs but big cities like Oslo has a plug to charge on most parking spots.

Meanwhile if I want to install an outdoor charging point at our designated parking spot I have to go thru dozens of hoops just to get it approved by HOA, then spend few grand getting it installed and by that time fuel savings are not worth it.

Tens of millions of apartment dwellers in big cities and suburbs don't have a choice, even if they want to buy an EV.

Despite all the hype and ICE dying rumors, they'll be here during our lifetime and oil will still be a major source of energy for at least next few decades.
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      12-12-2018, 09:53 AM   #32
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bradleyland I do not disagree with your analysis at all.

But I will state this: car companies have been making completely different feeling cars on the same platform for decades; they've just gotten better at hiding it in recent memory.

For example, the GM Alpha chassis. It is essentially the same base platform, but it houses the ATSV, CTSV, and Camaro all on one. There's multiple powertrains, feels, and purposes. They all feel unique; it is ALL about the integration by the company.

On the BMW side, the E series has housed all sorts of powertrains and differences. M3/335i/328i and THEN made wagons, coupes, and sedans all on the same platform.

I'm sure you can find more examples of this, but these just came to mind off hand. So in short most money making platforms and kind of "swiss army knives" already. It'll all be up to BMW to do proper integration and make a kick-ass chassis.

Edit: Honda has been doing exactly this with their hybrid powertrains since 'nam with pretty good success as well.
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      12-12-2018, 12:18 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff View Post
I'm sure you can find more examples of this, but these just came to mind off hand. So in short most money making platforms and kind of "swiss army knives" already. It'll all be up to BMW to do proper integration and make a kick-ass chassis.
I just think it's important not to treat it as a dichotomy. This is exactly the kind of corporate executive thinking that leads to cars that are less than they could have been. "Well Johnson, we've shared platforms in the past, so why the hell can't we do it here?" Meanwhile, the engineers are pulling their hair out because they're being forced to make some very strained compromises.

Put another way, platform sharing between the ATS and the Camaro is relatively straight forward because of the vast commonalities between the cars. To pick one particular facet, going full EV presents packaging opportunities that are simply impossible with ICE drivelines. By sharing the platform, you abandon these opportunities.

On the continuum of compromises, there is a point at which consumers will start noticing. I fear BMW is treading dangerously close to that point with this strategy.
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      12-12-2018, 12:43 PM   #34
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Most of you make the mistake to think the requirements for cars are everywhere similar to those of an average US customer who, by the way, belongs to the biggest energy wasters in the world and enjoys a public transportation system barely 2nd world standard.
And the industry will for sure not stop the change only because America has a problem to accept the urgency of innovation and action against the climate heating.
We see it more and more clear how China takes over technological responsability and leadership from the US. Their products become better and better and they really preparing an all new future involving European High-Tech know-how and decision makers. They have a strong plan, something that usualy another nation was known for, but doesn't seems to work any longer there. Too much signs of internal confusion and mental illness.

Still decades with ICE cars? Could be true for the US but for sure not here.
Here where we can see our huge majestic glaciers melting away, only because we're to stupid to accept and act responsible!
Latest elections in Germany brought huge wins for green parties and I'm sure it will also in my country next year. People become more and more afraid and start to think and act.
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      12-12-2018, 12:56 PM   #35
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Quote:
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How does this "torpedo Tesla?"

Tesla has absolutely no interest in ICE at all, and realizes its a dying technology, why would they waste resources developing something so compromised?

I struggle to find what is so innovative about this, its a compromise to remain chained to a market that refuses to move forwarded, a plea to appease stock holders and a mediocre attempt to guide change.

When you have to mention a company that is actually an innovator(Tesla) to get people to take notice, you're no longer technology leader, hand gestures aside.
Because we all know if you a actual sports car you need a ICE. You need some exhaust porn
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      12-12-2018, 01:13 PM   #36
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Put another way, platform sharing between the ATS and the Camaro is relatively straight forward because of the vast commonalities between the cars. To pick one particular facet, going full EV presents packaging opportunities that are simply impossible with ICE drivelines. By sharing the platform, you abandon these opportunities.
Well said. I agree with you - EVs built on clean sheet architectures are, at some point, likely to make legacy EVs built on adapted ICE platforms look downright silly. That being said, have we arrived at that point yet?

Here's a Model 3 "body-in-white":



Here's CLAR:



Now obviously this is a grossly high level comparison. But I don't think we can look at these two and declare that BMW is completely out of their league trying to "bend" CLAR into a Tesla fighter. Disagree?

True, these diagrams don't show the motor placement and batteries. But we already know BMW intends to put the battery in the floor "skateboard-style" just like Tesla, and they can scale to some 80kWh or more.

Like I say - I agree with you that BMW's approach is a compromise and has risks. Indeed, it seems a shame that they sort of squandered time and resources on the i3 platform that once held such promise, yet will, more than likely, not be reused any time soon if ever. Perhaps they could have instead iterated on it to arrive at a truly reusable EV platform like VAG and Mercedes already have. Still, I don't know if we should count BMW out just yet.

Oh, and just to be clear, I think the Wired article is laughably FUD-y and rather uncharacteristically amateur-ish for that publication. Obvious click bait is obvious.
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      12-12-2018, 01:37 PM   #37
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Until 150 KW chargers are ubiquitous, the most sensible car is a PHEV. The weight of the extra battery needed for 250 mi range over 50 mi is more than the weight of the PHEV ICE drivetrain. Consumers don't understand PHEV's, saying 50 miles? when a 50 mi range with overnight charging satisfies all of my daily needs and I have the ICE for trips. I think BMW has the right strategy and upcoming product mix. If you have a long commute, I bet a lot of it is on a higher speed road, where an ICE drivetrain gets good mileage, reserving the electric for the stop and go stuff.
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      12-12-2018, 01:39 PM   #38
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while the article is pure clickbait i do look forward to switching to the i4 if it can match the model 3 in range, performance and semi-autonomous tech in 2021 or whenever it's due. i don't want to be stuck with Tesla as my only choice of BEV.
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      12-12-2018, 01:51 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by XsltAnalyst View Post
I think most people here are not taking into account certain things. Despite all the hype about EVs, they only make up about 2% of light vehicle sales in US. BMW has thousands of investors and employees to feed, so they can't just blow money on bunch of EV only non flexible platforms and hope it works out. We have all seen a lackluster sales of their hybrid and i models, so they want to keep it safe.

I actually applaud them for making plug and play EV units, they can probably make additional money by selling the electric drivetrains.

Also, one more thing to point out about most EV (particularly Tesla car) sales- it just happens to be that those who can afford it usually have a house with a garage and can charge it at home. Once that initial demand gets satisfied, there will be a plateau in EV sales unless there will be huge changes everywhere that doesn't make it a hassle owning an EV if you don't have a place to charge overnight.

Massive switch to electric vehicles may happen fast in small EU countries but it is not going to happen anytime soon in US. Norway car sales are 50% EVs but big cities like Oslo has a plug to charge on most parking spots.

Meanwhile if I want to install an outdoor charging point at our designated parking spot I have to go thru dozens of hoops just to get it approved by HOA, then spend few grand getting it installed and by that time fuel savings are not worth it.

Tens of millions of apartment dwellers in big cities and suburbs don't have a choice, even if they want to buy an EV.

Despite all the hype and ICE dying rumors, they'll be here during our lifetime and oil will still be a major source of energy for at least next few decades.
IMO, the charging issue is what's overhyped. According to Energy.gov, 63% of occupied housing units had a garage or carport as of January 2017. Not to mention, 70% of new construction (5-years or newer) have a garage or carport.

Besides, nothing says you have to charge your car in a garage. According to 2014 US Census data, 77% of the US population live in a house; 20% live in apartments. This means there is some conceivable option of building some sort of charging infrastructure for 77% of the population, even if it’s in your driveway. And of the 20% in apartments, some portion of those likely park in a building garage (especially in NYC).

I am not saying everyone has easy access to charging, I'm simply saying that a majority of the market lives in a situation where they could remedy that situation.

Agree with you 100% that the EV switch isn't going to happen overnight, and that ICEs are here for the long haul, but I don't think this macro perspective is all that helpful in designing a specific automobile.

If we look at the current EV market, Tesla is dominating. Hell, you don't even have to limit it to the EV market. If you look at the sedan market, everyone is seeing declines while Tesla is selling cars as fast as they can build them. Why is that?

Consumers don't buy products, they buy identity. They buy the idea of a product. Just look at BMW. Why would a consumer choose a BMW 3-series over a Cadillac ATS when reviewers consistently place the ATS on equal footing with the 3-series? That's rhetorical They buy the BMW because of the ideals that BMW represent. It's part of their identity.

Identity is a complicated thing, because it is formed in the minds of your buyers. "Cadillacs are for old people," is a particularly persistent idea, and it hinders Cadillac's efforts to shift their demographics. Looking at the EV & hybrid market, what's driving the popularity of the Tesla versus other options?

If you ask me, it's identity. Buyers see Tesla as a leader in full EV automobiles. Tesla built an EV from the ground up. It's easy to pitch something as innovative when it's all new. Consumers respond to this type of message. You can even see this marketing element in incumbent marketing: "Come see the all new 2019 models!"

How will consumers react to the idea of a BMW EV that is the same as their ICE automobiles, or at least the same platform? Will they perceive it as an advancement? Will they perceive it as cost cutting? Or will they perceive it as a half-measure? That's the risk I'm talking about.

It is a real dilemma for incumbents. The automotive market has taught the market to be risk averse. However, this opens them to disruption in the form of risky upstarts like Tesla. I continue to believe that the right move is to build EV-first platforms that share as little as possible with traditional ICE products. The goal needs has to be creating the consumer perception that BMW EV models are every bit as new and innovative as models from Tesla. I think this shared platform fails at that.
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      12-12-2018, 01:55 PM   #40
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Now obviously this is a grossly high level comparison. But I don't think we can look at these two and declare that BMW is completely out of their league trying to "bend" CLAR into a Tesla fighter. Disagree?
I think from a purely objective perspective, the shared platform would be fine. I just don't think "fine" puts BMW in the best market position. I even think there's a chance that EV versions of the car turn out to be really good. The problem will be in market perception. With a platform shared with ICE automobiles, they'll face an uphill perception battle.
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      12-12-2018, 09:19 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
...
It is a real dilemma for incumbents. The automotive market has taught the market to be risk averse. However, this opens them to disruption in the form of risky upstarts like Tesla. I continue to believe that the right move is to build EV-first platforms that share as little as possible with traditional ICE products. The goal needs has to be creating the consumer perception that BMW EV models are every bit as new and innovative as models from Tesla. I think this shared platform fails at that.
Yeah only the time will tell if their flexible shared platform was the right move. I am pretty sure they've spent tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars before deciding on this so I have no doubt they've weighed pros and cons of each direction.
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