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      11-09-2019, 11:13 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by PoorLurker View Post
There's a "loophole" and people are using it to their advantage.

It's not illegal. If I wanted to complain I can either fight for legislation to change it or become a firefighter.

I'd rather have a firefighter making that type of money rather than a real estate agent.
*Nominated for "One of the Best Posts of 2019".

I would actually add a few more Jobs to that statement.
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      11-09-2019, 12:51 PM   #46
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Wow, kind of shocked at the negativity this brings out. People are sure quick to infer this guy is some kind of scammer, based upon the ignorance of thinking you know how OT works for firefighters (i.e. that he was claiming to work 21hrs per day all year). Perhaps it was partly due to chopping off the "...Battling Raging Wildfires" from the title, so now everybody is all jealous that he made such a killing (without a law degree? without running his father's business? - travesty!). Even the original article is making the 'we need more personnel, this is causing burnout' argument, not some 'look at the grafters bilking the system' angle. You couldn't pay me enough to risk my life doing this, and as far as I'm concerned LEOs and First Responders should all be paid more. OT costs are the only incentive that legislators have to bulk up the staffing, instead of the stupid showy shit they spend money on for good press. OK rant over...
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      11-09-2019, 01:00 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Wow, kind of shocked at the negativity this brings out. People are sure quick to infer this guy is some kind of scammer, based upon the ignorance of thinking you know how OT works for firefighters (i.e. that he was claiming to work 21hrs per day all year). Perhaps it was partly due to chopping off the "...Battling Raging Wildfires" from the title, so now everybody is all jealous that he made such a killing (without a law degree? without running his father's business? - travesty!). Even the original article is making the 'we need more personnel, this is causing burnout' argument, not some 'look at the grafters bilking the system' angle. You couldn't pay me enough to risk my life doing this, and as far as I'm concerned LEOs and First Responders should all be paid more. OT costs are the only incentive that legislators have to bulk up the staffing, instead of the stupid showy shit they spend money on for good press. OK rant over...
I think the rub is this seems to be some unexplainable situation of the math not adding up all at the tax payers expense.

Let's compare to the free market, if a lawyer, doctor, accountant etc. knowingly over-billed with the intent to defraud they would be going to jail.

I am not arguing whether being a first responder is a noble and important job, I just don't see how the OT math adds up as has been pointed out previously. More importantly it smells of government mismanagement of tax payer funds
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      11-09-2019, 01:17 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by wpTXX5 View Post
I think the rub is this seems to be some unexplainable situation of the math not adding up all at the tax payers expense.

Let's compare to the free market, if a lawyer, doctor, accountant etc. knowingly over-billed with the intent to defraud they would be going to jail.

I am not arguing whether being a first responder is a noble and important job, I just don't see how the OT math adds up as has been pointed out previously. More importantly it smells of government mismanagement of tax payer funds
Several prior posts mention ways that "the math adds up" differently than you think. I don't know how CA does this, but I'll trust he isn't defrauding anybody and is getting this legit. I kind of think part of this is that this is 'just a firefighter' and not some overpaid professional. I know that as far as doctors, at the last hospital I worked at, every time an attending got called in, they were paid 4hrs OT. For each call. So if you got paged 10 times to the ED in a shift (not uncommon), you got 40hrs OT for the night. And you could be napping in a call room in between, or even there in the ED already seeing another patient. That isn't considered fraud, but it earns a lot more than 360k.
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      11-09-2019, 01:39 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpTXX5 View Post
I think the rub is this seems to be some unexplainable situation of the math not adding up all at the tax payers expense.

Let's compare to the free market, if a lawyer, doctor, accountant etc. knowingly over-billed with the intent to defraud they would be going to jail.

I am not arguing whether being a first responder is a noble and important job, I just don't see how the OT math adds up as has been pointed out previously. More importantly it smells of government mismanagement of tax payer funds
Several prior posts mention ways that "the math adds up" differently than you think. I don't know how CA does this, but I'll trust he isn't defrauding anybody and is getting this legit. I kind of think part of this is that this is 'just a firefighter' and not some overpaid professional. I know that as far as doctors, at the last hospital I worked at, every time an attending got called in, they were paid 4hrs OT. For each call. So if you got paged 10 times to the ED in a shift (not uncommon), you got 40hrs OT for the night. And you could be napping in a call room in between, or even there in the ED already seeing another patient. That isn't considered fraud, but it earns a lot more than 360k.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpTXX5 View Post
I think the rub is this seems to be some unexplainable situation of the math not adding up all at the tax payers expense.

Let's compare to the free market, if a lawyer, doctor, accountant etc. knowingly over-billed with the intent to defraud they would be going to jail.

I am not arguing whether being a first responder is a noble and important job, I just don't see how the OT math adds up as has been pointed out previously. More importantly it smells of government mismanagement of tax payer funds
Several prior posts mention ways that "the math adds up" differently than you think. I don't know how CA does this, but I'll trust he isn't defrauding anybody and is getting this legit. I kind of think part of this is that this is 'just a firefighter' and not some overpaid professional. I know that as far as doctors, at the last hospital I worked at, every time an attending got called in, they were paid 4hrs OT. For each call. So if you got paged 10 times to the ED in a shift (not uncommon), you got 40hrs OT for the night. And you could be napping in a call room in between, or even there in the ED already seeing another patient. That isn't considered fraud, but it earns a lot more than 360k.
I seemed to have missed the post that specifically calculated how this fire fighter obtained that much pay/OT through a reasonable manner. I see a lot of speculation and conjuncture but no specific formula. If you can educate me on it than even more the better.

My argument isn't that a profession that is an in "on call" status shouldn't be paid for or compensated in some way for those hours that they were "at the ready". Whether a doctor, lawyer, plumber or fire fighter if they are expected to be at the ready they should be compensated for those hours they could have been committed to off hour activities they choose.

To close, compensation whether a lawyer, doctor, fire fighter, real estate agent or cashier is what the market dictates. If you feel passionate that a Fire Fighter in your market should make 300k+ please discuss this with others in your community/city in order to raise taxes and/or cut other government spending to compensate. If you get enough support you may just get what you wanted.
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      11-09-2019, 02:26 PM   #50
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I mentioned it on my other post.. but let's do some roll playing.
Monday work 7am until 9pm, 14 hours.
7am to 3 = 8 hours of regular time
3 to 7pm = 4 hours 1.5 OT, or 6 hours on timesheet
7pm to 9pm = 2 hours at double OT, so 4 hours on time sheet
12+ hours gets meal penalty equal to 1 hour of pay.
8+6+4+1=19 hours of pay

Tuesday 7am until 9pm, 14 more hours
7am to 3 = 8 hours
7am-9am = 2 hours of .5 penalty for quick turn around, or 1 hour on time sheet.
3-7pm = again 6 hours on timesheet
7-9= 4 hours on sheet
And againmeal penalty
8+1+6+4+1=20 hours of pay

So far 2 days in we are at 28 hours worked but 39 claimed. Throw in a 6th day that would be 1.5ot the first 8 hours and 2ot for 8+ the same 14 hour day would be over 24 hours for a day (12+12+1+1). 7th day? That was all double time, so 28 in just time, and 2 for penalties, 30 for one day.

Let's do the week!
M=19
T=20
W=20
Th=20
F=20
Sa=26
Su=30
19+20+20+20+20+26+30=155 hours for one week
Only 168 hours in a week. 168-155=13; 13/7 = less than 2.. yet as seen above these were 14 hour days which left 10 hours to myself not the 2 that everyone's math keeps trying to suggest.

The above is close to a real world scenario that I have done during crunch time on a project.
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      11-09-2019, 03:27 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchillerM View Post
I mentioned it on my other post.. but let's do some roll playing.
Monday work 7am until 9pm, 14 hours.
7am to 3 = 8 hours of regular time
3 to 7pm = 4 hours 1.5 OT, or 6 hours on timesheet
7pm to 9pm = 2 hours at double OT, so 4 hours on time sheet
12+ hours gets meal penalty equal to 1 hour of pay.
8+6+4+1=19 hours of pay

Tuesday 7am until 9pm, 14 more hours
7am to 3 = 8 hours
7am-9am = 2 hours of .5 penalty for quick turn around, or 1 hour on time sheet.
3-7pm = again 6 hours on timesheet
7-9= 4 hours on sheet
And againmeal penalty
8+1+6+4+1=20 hours of pay

So far 2 days in we are at 28 hours worked but 39 claimed. Throw in a 6th day that would be 1.5ot the first 8 hours and 2ot for 8+ the same 14 hour day would be over 24 hours for a day (12+12+1+1). 7th day? That was all double time, so 28 in just time, and 2 for penalties, 30 for one day.

Let's do the week!
M=19
T=20
W=20
Th=20
F=20
Sa=26
Su=30
19+20+20+20+20+26+30=155 hours for one week
Only 168 hours in a week. 168-155=13; 13/7 = less than 2.. yet as seen above these were 14 hour days which left 10 hours to myself not the 2 that everyone's math keeps trying to suggest.

The above is close to a real world scenario that I have done during crunch time on a project.
Firefighters typically work 24 on 48 off and overtime is calculated on a "work period" not based on an 8 hour day. See FLSA explanation from the department of labor on Fire Fighters and LEO.

https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs8.htm

According to FLSA in a 28 day period OT kicks in after 212 hours.

So let's say this person LITERALLY lived every hour at the station.

In 8.8 days they would hit the 212 hours and be eligible for OT. For rounding sake they would then be able to collect 456 hours of OT (19 days left in the 28 day period) which would equal $30,252 in OT (1.5/rate) for that 28 day period.

There are 13.03 28 day periods in a year if you take $30,252*13.03 = $394,343 in OT.

In order to get close to the excessive amount of OT this firefighter has amassed they would literally be living at the firehouse most every day.

This all begs the question is that person really there, effective, and ready for an emergency? Should LA County review the amount of OT being spent across the board and increase recruitment to get hours back into regular time pay?
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      11-09-2019, 05:03 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchillerM View Post
I mentioned it on my other post.. but let's do some roll playing.
Monday work 7am until 9pm, 14 hours.
7am to 3 = 8 hours of regular time
3 to 7pm = 4 hours 1.5 OT, or 6 hours on timesheet
7pm to 9pm = 2 hours at double OT, so 4 hours on time sheet
12+ hours gets meal penalty equal to 1 hour of pay.
8+6+4+1=19 hours of pay

Tuesday 7am until 9pm, 14 more hours
7am to 3 = 8 hours
7am-9am = 2 hours of .5 penalty for quick turn around, or 1 hour on time sheet.
3-7pm = again 6 hours on timesheet
7-9= 4 hours on sheet
And againmeal penalty
8+1+6+4+1=20 hours of pay

So far 2 days in we are at 28 hours worked but 39 claimed. Throw in a 6th day that would be 1.5ot the first 8 hours and 2ot for 8+ the same 14 hour day would be over 24 hours for a day (12+12+1+1). 7th day? That was all double time, so 28 in just time, and 2 for penalties, 30 for one day.

Let's do the week!
M=19
T=20
W=20
Th=20
F=20
Sa=26
Su=30
19+20+20+20+20+26+30=155 hours for one week
Only 168 hours in a week. 168-155=13; 13/7 = less than 2.. yet as seen above these were 14 hour days which left 10 hours to myself not the 2 that everyone's math keeps trying to suggest.

The above is close to a real world scenario that I have done during crunch time on a project.
And in this example you're calculating equivalent work hours, not actual work hours which would be dramatically less.
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      11-09-2019, 05:23 PM   #53
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Quote:
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And in this example you're calculating equivalent work hours, not actual work hours which would be dramatically less.
That is 100% my point. People on here are acting like those were worked hours. Just because he claimed 5000 hours of OT doesn't mean that he "worked" those.

Another example
https://www.google.com/amp/s/reason.com/2018/05/21/firefighter-earned-300k-in-overtime-by-w/%3famp
"Donn Thompson was paid for more than 9,200 hours of work last year. But there are only 8,760 hours in a year."
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      11-09-2019, 05:48 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchillerM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaC-N54-E82 View Post
And in this example you're calculating equivalent work hours, not actual work hours which would be dramatically less.
That is 100% my point. People on here are acting like those were worked hours. Just because he claimed 5000 hours of OT doesn't mean that he "worked" those.

Another example
https://www.google.com/amp/s/reason.com/2018/05/21/firefighter-earned-300k-in-overtime-by-w/%3famp
"Donn Thompson was paid for more than 9,200 hours of work last year. But there are only 8,760 hours in a year."
But that isn't how a Fire Fighters OT is calculated....see my post above. In order to reach the cash equivalent of 360k of OT they would have to be at the fire house almost everyday. They don't base it off of 8 hour days 40 hour work weeks.

Also hours worked is hours worked and the only thing that changes is the rate. People don't say I worked 40 hours this week plus 10 hours*double time so I am in for 60 hours. That makes no sense at all and no employer that I know of measures it that way because they know they didn't get 60 hours of productivity from that employee. They got 50 hours of productivity 10 of which they had to pay a premium for. Actual hours worked is a key KPI in tracking project productivity some of which may be at a premium rate (which also needs to me measured)
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