[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Bibbles

Not having a plan beyond Brexit meaning Brexit is what's stopped it so far and may continue to do so with Johnson's Brexit not being Brexity enough for Farage.

Projects rarely work when they're defined on the hoof and Brexit is a prime example. Redefines shambles.
As for Farage, he doesn't want Brexit to be implemented, never has and never will. Brexit will make him redundant, left without a job, without a position and without relevance. He is utterly transparent, and yet people continue to support him. Staggering how stupid some folk can be.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I think it's obvious that you don't need a referendum to confirm your decision. But as far as I'm aware they'd be asking more people than just you.

Of course they would! But it's interesting the clamour for a confirmatory double-check is coming overwhelmingly from people who voted Remain; if Leave voters were the ones duped by the referendum campaign you'd think it would be them demanding a re-run but it's very rare to see or hear a Leaver saying they need another go at it. Opinion polls also show no evidence of a collapse in the support for Leave and the European elections in May didn't either - so the agitation for another vote is all coming from the side who lost last time. Funny that.....

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I also know that you object to asking again before it's been implemented. My question to you was is there no time limit on that? We're 3 and half years in and we haven't even agreed the exit deal, it could be ten years before everything's sorted. Children who were 8 in 2016 could be in the voting population by the time everything is done and dusted. They didn't vote for anything.

A lot has happened in 3 and a half years already. Roughly 2.5 million people have turned 18. They didn't vote for this. In another 3.5 years when we might just have sorted a trade deal, there'll be 5 million who didn't vote for anything.

I understand that if something happens in good time then that shouldn't matter, whoever is eligible at that time votes, but it does when we're taking years and years to do this.

I agree it's very frustrating that implementing the result of the 2016 referendum is taking longer than necessary. However, it was always known there was potentially a period of 2 years from invoking A50 to leaving and that even if we struck a WA with the EU the final trading agreement would take longer to negotiate. Despite that, though, nobody ever said during the campaign "but of course we'll need to have another referendum while all this is happening just to make sure people haven't changed their minds in the meantime".

I don't really accept the bit about people not being entitled to vote in 2016 either. The referendum in 1975 - which confirmed our place in the Common Market - wasn't voted on by tens of millions of people who had to accept the consequences for the subsequent 40 plus years. As I've said many times, I'm not especially keen on government by referendum but if you hold one on a particular issue IMO you can't run around having re-runs every few years because the electorate has changed and the current make-up and demographic might give you a different result.

In terms of timing from where we are now, I'm hoping the GE will break the log-jam one way or the other; if the Conservatives win we'll be going with (probably) BJ's deal on 31st January but if they don't then I think you may well get the additional referendum you're after by the middle of next year. If the eventual outcome of that is we end-up revoking A50 and staying in the EU then personally I think it will have done damage to our democratic system because it will in effect have ignored the view expressed in the 2016 referendum; however, as a democrat I would respect the result and move on. Whether all leavers would be similarly philosophical I don't know - I'd hope so but wouldn't bet on it.

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

And saying remainers have stopped this just isn't true. Brexiteers have blocked us leaving so far just as much. And are now backing pretty much the same deal, only a bit shitter.

Brexiteer MP's voted against a deal which included something (the Irish Backstop) which potentially tied us to the EU in perpetuity with no means of escape without their consent; therefore, IMO they were quite right to reject that deal as a potential outcome was we'd never have been able to leave at all.

The Johnson deal - while still not perfect - removes the backstop and appeared to have majority support in Parliament even though his proposed timetable for getting it through didn't. You obviously think BJ's deal is worse than TM's but personally I don't agree; neither are great but the removal of the backstop is an important and significant difference IMO.

On the wider point, our House of Commons has a significant majority in favour of Remain and it's been clear that's been used repeatedly to frustrate the Brexit process. Just look at how the speaker - a known Remainer - has exercised his power in unconventional ways on more than one occasion (always to the benefit of Remain) and how that was then exploited by Remain MP's like Grieve, Letwin, Benn, et al. And all this coming from the very group of people who voted to grant the referendum in the first place and were (mostly) re-elected in 2017 on a platform of respecting the outcome....

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Of course they would! But it's interesting the clamour for a confirmatory double-check is coming overwhelmingly from people who voted Remain; if Leave voters were the ones duped by the referendum campaign you'd think it would be them demanding a re-run but it's very rare to see or hear a Leaver saying they need another go at it. Opinion polls also show no evidence of a collapse in the support for Leave and the European elections in May didn't either - so the agitation for another vote is all coming from the side who lost last time. Funny that.....



I agree it's very frustrating that implementing the result of the 2016 referendum is taking longer than necessary. However, it was always known there was potentially a period of 2 years from invoking A50 to leaving and that even if we struck a WA with the EU the final trading agreement would take longer to negotiate. Despite that, though, nobody ever said during the campaign "but of course we'll need to have another referendum while all this is happening just to make sure people haven't changed their minds in the meantime".

I don't really accept the bit about people not being entitled to vote in 2016 either. The referendum in 1975 - which confirmed our place in the Common Market - wasn't voted on by tens of millions of people who had to accept the consequences for the subsequent 40 plus years. As I've said many times, I'm not especially keen on government by referendum but if you hold one on a particular issue IMO you can't run around having re-runs every few years because the electorate has changed and the current make-up and demographic might give you a different result.

In terms of timing from where we are now, I'm hoping the GE will break the log-jam one way or the other; if the Conservatives win we'll be going with (probably) BJ's deal on 31st January but if they don't then I think you may well get the additional referendum you're after by the middle of next year. If the eventual outcome of that is we end-up revoking A50 and staying in the EU then personally I think it will have done damage to our democratic system because it will in effect have ignored the view expressed in the 2016 referendum; however, as a democrat I would respect the result and move on. Whether all leavers would be similarly philosophical I don't know - I'd hope so but wouldn't bet on it.



Brexiteer MP's voted against a deal which included something (the Irish Backstop) which potentially tied us to the EU in perpetuity with no means of escape without their consent; therefore, IMO they were quite right to reject that deal as a potential outcome was we'd never have been able to leave at all.

The Johnson deal - while still not perfect - removes the backstop and appeared to have majority support in Parliament even though his proposed timetable for getting it through didn't. You obviously think BJ's deal is worse than TM's but personally I don't agree; neither are great but the removal of the backstop is an important and significant difference IMO.

On the wider point, our House of Commons has a significant majority in favour of Remain and it's been clear that's been used repeatedly to frustrate the Brexit process. Just look at how the speaker - a known Remainer - has exercised his power in unconventional ways on more than one occasion (always to the benefit of Remain) and how that was then exploited by Remain MP's like Grieve, Letwin, Benn, et al. And all this coming from the very group of people who voted to grant the referendum in the first place and were (mostly) re-elected in 2017 on a platform of respecting the outcome....

I'm pretty certain that this process has already seriously damaged our democratic system, and it's not close to being over.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I'm pretty certain that this process has already seriously damaged our democratic system, and it's not close to being over.

On that we can probably agree - ordinarily we govern via a representative democracy in the UK and the 2016 referendum has probably served to remind us all why we do it that way!

[TodmordenLad]

Moody's ratings would not be my chosen specialist subject on Mastermind. This, however, cannot be spun as positive news, even by the most rampant Brexiter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50361025

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Moody's ratings would not be my chosen specialist subject on Mastermind. This, however, cannot be spun as positive news, even by the most rampant Brexiter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50361025

I think could is the operative word, certainly if Corbyn gets in we'll be junk status by the end of the first week, should the Tories get in, expect lots of rowing back against the spending pledges when Javid eventually gets his calculator out and sees just how much Brexit will cost us.

[TodmordenLad]

There must be quite a few Brexit Party members wandering around this morning feeling like they've been shat on from a great height. What did they expect? Farage is a conman. Hello?!
My heart bleeds for them

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

There must be quite a few Brexit Party members wandering around this morning feeling like they've been shat on from a great height. What did they expect? Farage is a conman. Hello?!
My heart bleeds for them

Farage attempting to hold the country to ransom has back fired, however he probably doesn't care so long as he gets his column inches and interviews on the TV to boost his profile etc...

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Farage attempting to hold the country to ransom has back fired, however he probably doesn't care so long as he gets his column inches and interviews on the TV to boost his profile etc...

Yeh, hopefully he'll f*ck off to the US after the election where Trump will have some lapdog position for him.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Farage attempting to hold the country to ransom has back fired, however he probably doesn't care so long as he gets his column inches and interviews on the TV to boost his profile etc...

As someone wryly tweeted this morning, expect Farage to be knighted for services to racism any time soon.
And the rest. One can never underestimate the -ve impact which this man has had on the trajectory of UK politics, going back to the inception of UKIP. In terms of outcomes, he makes Orban, Le Pen, Salvini et al look quite ineffectual by comparison.

[teaston]

If you haven't already, you have to watch this video about Brexit, very thought provoking!

[teaston]

So, Nissan are to invest £400m in their Sunderland plant, looks like post Brexit might not be all doom and gloom!

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by teaston

So, Nissan are to invest £400m in their Sunderland plant, looks like post Brexit might not be all doom and gloom!

This was announced ages ago, just reaffirming it, not new investment.

Automotive production in the U.K in a slump at the moment, and even Nissan have reduced production. Not sure the current global environment, even without Brexit, is going to help that much.

Anyone think the EU is prioritising trade talks with the UK right now?

[teaston]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

This was announced ages ago, just reaffirming it, not new investment.

Automotive production in the U.K in a slump at the moment, and even Nissan have reduced production. Not sure the current global environment, even without Brexit, is going to help that much.

Anyone think the EU is prioritising trade talks with the UK right now?

Oh, back to doom and gloom I guess then!

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by teaston

Oh, back to doom and gloom I guess then!

Don't worry, no one cares right now, this thread will disappear back to page 12 of the forum.

[teaston]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

Don't worry, no one cares right now, this thread will disappear back to page 12 of the forum.

Is it because they don’t care, or just because they've given up (on life).

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by teaston

Is it because they don’t care, or just because they've given up (on life).

No, it's because they don't care. Not in the news right now, nothing really happening in negotiations. Nothing to see here.

[teaston]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

No, it's because they don't care. Not in the news right now, nothing really happening in negotiations. Nothing to see here.

Yeah well it’s not bothering me, our work is bat shit crazy currently! Just feel for those who will be negatively impacted by all of these.

[Tengocity]

It's just Coronavirus is giving us something new to argue about, and something new to be cocked up by someone in government.

[JustChris]

Whatever....

[Soul_Glo]

What the hell is going on with Brexit?

Transition is approaching.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Soul_Glo

What the hell is going on with Brexit?

Transition is approaching.

"Oven-ready" trade deal, according to that lazy prick in No. 10