[225]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Cameron was a decent PM in a shit situation from 2010, thanks to Gordon's spend it while the sun shines attitude - Brown never thought a rainy day would come.

Unfortunately, Cameron then bowed to pressure from his party extremists and that brings us to today. His good work destroyed by his own hand.

Blair and Cameron - the two best PMs of my time, their parties are now led by people so far removed from their moderate, stable, approaches. Corbyn is an even bigger bad stretch from Blair than Johnson is from Cameron.

Sad, very very sad.

We need a change and only the Lib Dems having a chunk of power is going to provide a positive one. IMHO.

Agree with all of that bar the last sentence as I think Jo Swinson is much and ego maniac as the rest of them.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Cameron was a decent PM in a shit situation from 2010, thanks to Gordon's spend it while the sun shines attitude - Brown never thought a rainy day would come.

Unfortunately, Cameron then bowed to pressure from his party extremists and that brings us to today. His good work destroyed by his own hand.

Blair and Cameron - the two best PMs of my time, their parties are now led by people so far removed from their moderate, stable, approaches. Corbyn is an even bigger bad stretch from Blair than Johnson is from Cameron.

Sad, very very sad.

We need a change and only the Lib Dems having a chunk of power is going to provide a positive one. IMHO.

Blair was probably the worst PM ever - his policies brought in the concept of benefits being better than work, he turned politics into sound bites and marketing, and of course that before we look at his role in the war...

But he did show that to win, you need to appeal to more people more often...

As for the poster who criticised Thatcher, as a miners son from Derbyshire, I am supposed to hate her, but before her we had the winter of discontent, the unions in charge, people being paid more each year even though what they produced was less, poor quality, poor efficiency. She might be unpopular but she made us a more efficient country - and increased capitalism in the working classes which maybe brought a few of us to BMW.

I lived through the miners strike at first hand. It destroyed families and communities. But I don’t actually blame her for the strike, even if the decision to close all the pitswas short sighted. She did some good. The same will never be said of Corbyn. And unlikely to be said of Johnson!

[zofinger]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Blair was probably the worst PM ever - his policies brought in the concept of benefits being better than work.....

IMO benefits as a way of life has helped stripped this country of cash and self-respect. I recall there being pride of growing up and going out to work, being able to spend money that you earned. This is still true but to a lesser extent as, in huge numbers, there are people who are happy to spend money they haven't earned. I'm all for a welfare state (I've needed it!) and some absolutely deserve a helping hand...a safety net, not an objective/way of life. If Blair was a catalyst for this phenomenon then he's gone even lower in my opinion.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by zofinger

IMO benefits as a way of life has helped stripped this country of cash and self-respect. I recall there being pride of growing up and going out to work, being able to spend money that you earned. This is still true but to a lesser extent as, in huge numbers, there are people who are happy to spend money they haven't earned. I'm all for a welfare state (I've needed it!) and some absolutely deserve a helping hand...a safety net, not an objective/way of life. If Blair was a catalyst for this phenomenon then he's gone even lower in my opinion.

I am with both of you on benefits. I never understand why the country is a complete mess, weeds and dirt everywhere, fences built and left unmaintained for 50'years, pavements crumbling...and yet we have an army of potential workers who we could give pride and purpose to. Hopefully as a first step on the ladder.

[zofinger]

The poll results currently show perhaps the Tories have blunted the appeal from the Brexit Party.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by zofinger

The poll results currently show perhaps the Tories have blunted the appeal from the Brexit Party.

It also shows that public opinion for Brexit is still strong, but not necessarily over 50%.

On both counts the poll is pretty limited in its demographic spread though!

[zofinger]

For me, it is suggesting polling day will be down to whether the traditional Tory voters vote for the Liberals on the day in the knowledge it could let in Labour. It may depend on their strength of feeling - do they want Brexit revoked while having a Labour government or can they stomach Brexit.

[TimMcC]

Originally Posted by zofinger

For me, it is suggesting polling day will be down to whether the traditional Tory voters vote for the Liberals on the day in the knowledge it could let in Labour. It may depend on their strength of feeling - do they want Brexit revoked while having a Labour government or can they stomach Brexit.

As a traditional Tory voter, I simply don't recognise the party anymore. I couldn't stomach voting for them any more than Labour. Equally bad in different ways. Therefore I'm left with one credible option: Lib Dem.

[zofinger]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

....On both counts the poll is pretty limited in its demographic spread though!

Oh....and there was me thinking Sir John Curtice would be all over this poll.

[JR1664]

Originally Posted by TimMcC

As a traditional Tory voter, I simply don't recognise the party anymore. I couldn't stomach voting for them any more than Labour. Equally bad in different ways. Therefore I'm left with one credible option: Lib Dem.

As a leaver the Lib Dems can shove it where the sun doesn't shine. That said my local lib dem councillor is spot on. He will probably lose his seat at the next local elections due to the top tables desperation to get votes.

Same party eh!

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by JR1664

As a leaver the Lib Dems can shove it where the sun doesn't shine. That said my local lib dem councillor is spot on. He will probably lose his seat at the next local elections due to the top tables desperation to get votes.

Same party eh!

Voting the same for local elections and national elections is dumb.

I voted conservative at the locals, the candidate was spot on on local issues. He lost.

Also happen to personally know and like our local conservative MP, but I won't be voting for him due to national policies. Whipping means that you have to consider the national picture above the local one.

Nice poster. Seems they were always democratic in wanting to give people a voice.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Nice poster. Seems they were always democratic in wanting to give people a voice.

Which counts for nothing if you then don't want to listen to what they say! In actual fact, asking the question and then ignoring the answer is worse than not asking the question at all IMO!

[JD6]

Originally Posted by zofinger

For me, it is suggesting polling day will be down to whether the traditional Tory voters vote for the Liberals on the day in the knowledge it could let in Labour. It may depend on their strength of feeling - do they want Brexit revoked while having a Labour government or can they stomach Brexit.

The chance of a Labour majority is pretty minuscule in my view, but there must be a reasonable chance of a minority Labour government, propped up by the SNP and Lib Dems. Of course the conditions imposed by those parties would be referendums on Scotland and the EU respectively.

I don’t believe that a minority Labour government could implement much of their Marxist nonsense, so that for me is a risk worth taking to have a chance of killing off Brexit. I cannot vote Conservative while it has been taken over by right wing extremists.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Which counts for nothing if you then don't want to listen to what they say! In actual fact, asking the question and then ignoring the answer is worse than not asking the question at all IMO!

They wanted a people's vote, got fed up of everyone else blocking that sensible option

[zofinger]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

They wanted a people's vote, got fed up of everyone else blocking that sensible option

Be very clear on this....and it has been discussed at length on earlier pages...the LDs absolutely want another referendum but they're very 'honest' (and undemocratic) by saying even if it concluded in another leave vote, they would campaign against implementation. In other words, have a another vote but if you dont vote for how we want, we wont honour the result.

[Bryans69]

Originally Posted by TimMcC

As a traditional Tory voter, I simply don't recognise the party anymore. I couldn't stomach voting for them any more than Labour. Equally bad in different ways. Therefore I'm left with one credible option: Lib Dem.

Same here

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

They wanted a people's vote, got fed up of everyone else blocking that sensible option

The sensible option? Really?! I think the last three and a half years have served to illustrate that giving the people a binary vote on something as complex as our continued membership of the EU was anything but sensible; a massive abdication of responsibility by our Parliament more like!

[Lincoln61]

This election is a bit like pulling at 2am. I don't like any of them, but i know I must do it. I think I will have to go for the one that makes me feel the least dirty when i wake up!

Labour is ruled out full stop. LD have become Labour lite, and that new leader just makes my shit itch!

[Scoobyd]

Originally Posted by JD6

I cannot vote Conservative while it has been taken over by right wing extremists.

I see this, frankly ridiculous, statement being used by quite a few people. Where on earth does this level of thinking come from. Right wing extremists?

Do you honestly, genuinely, believe that the current Conservative party are facists and Nazis? Because I assume you know what right wing extremism actually is when you make such a statement.

And who within the party currently do you specifically think is a facist or a Nazi? All of them? A specific few?

Statements such as this drag our political discourse even further into the gutter than it already is. I mean you may not like the Conservatives, and that’s absolutely fine, but let’s have some sensible, level headed discussion on it without such sweeping, and wrong, words.

[agentorange]

Originally Posted by JustChris

I'm at a total loss with British politics.

As an ex-pat that sums it up pretty well for me. Another expat recently visited the UK so I asked him how his extended family felt about politics and Brexit.

He sighed and said, "Divided doesn't even come close to describing it. I thought we were screwed under Trump until I got back to the UK and they got going about it."

[agentorange]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Blair was probably the worst PM ever - his policies brought in the concept of benefits being better than work, he turned politics into sound bites and marketing, and of course that before we look at his role in the war...

But he did show that to win, you need to appeal to more people more often...

Blair took "playing both ends against the middle" to a whole new level.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

I see this, frankly ridiculous, statement being used by quite a few people. Where on earth does this level of thinking come from. Right wing extremists?

Do you honestly, genuinely, believe that the current Conservative party are facists and Nazis? Because I assume you know what right wing extremism actually is when you make such a statement.

And who within the party currently do you specifically think is a facist or a Nazi? All of them? A specific few?

Statements such as this drag our political discourse even further into the gutter than it already is. I mean you may not like the Conservatives, and that’s absolutely fine, but let’s have some sensible, level headed discussion on it without such sweeping, and wrong, words.

Extremism can take many forms, and your ability to only recognise it if a country is invading Poland is a little extreme in itself. If many many sensible people with moderate views cannot bring themselves to vote for either major party, then there is a form of extremism.

I like the below quote from last year that defines it pretty well.

"No matter where our relationship with Europe ends up on 30 March next year, we can all be confident that we will not have a government or an opposition party with the ability and integrity to put Britain’s interests ahead of their own. That to me is the very nature of extremism."