[AspektUSA]

Originally Posted by lens

Yeap, but B58 wise, makes no sense to use diesel oil as the engine tolerances are not made for it, the clearances are even tighter than N55.

Right, using heavy duty diesel oil is pointless.

I use "diesel" oil in mine, but it's LL-04 rated - low SAPS just like LL17 but a tad thicker for HTHS.

[edycol]

There are a lot if assumptions in this thread.
1. Literally ANY LL01 is better than T6. T6 doesn’t have deposit, evaporation loss (Noack), oxidation etc. limits that any LL01 approved oil has to meet.
2. It is popular with Subaru crowed from times when Subaru’s were going through head gaskets every time one changes oil. At that time T6 was popular with VW crowd bcs. huge fuel dilution issues on first generation FSI engines. Since T6 at that time was really thick, it helped keeping oil in grade during OCI. Subaru crowed jumped on that VW train. While VW crowd left the train, Subaru crowd never did.
3. There is no such thing as low clearance. B generation of engines is built for ANY BMW oil approval including LL01 and LL04. The reason why there is no love for LL17FE is that it is created STRICTLY for fuel efficiency. That is it!

[edycol]

Originally Posted by AspektUSA

Right, using heavy duty diesel oil is pointless.

I use "diesel" oil in mine, but it's LL-04 rated - low SAPS just like LL17 but a tad thicker for HTHS.

LL04 is not diesel oil. From get go, LL04 was created for both gasoline and diesel applications. It is Mid to Low-SAPS oil. That is it. Far better choice than T6.

[lens]

Originally Posted by edycol

There is no such thing as low clearance. B generation of engines is built for ANY BMW oil approval including LL01 and LL04. The reason why there is no love for LL17FE is that it is created STRICTLY for fuel efficiency. That is it!

My access to newtis begs to differ


Bearing tolerances are pretty tight, and so are pretty much other things in the engine.

[AspektUSA]

Originally Posted by lens

My access to newtis begs to differ


Bearing tolerances are pretty tight, and so are pretty much other things in the engine.

NewTIS says everything LL-01, 04, 17, 14 is compatible so.

[lens]

Originally Posted by AspektUSA

NewTIS says everything LL-01, 04, 17, 14 is compatible so.

It also says up to 5w30 for B58 engines, there's a reason why motul created a Gen2 for their oil

Either way, just follow what the manual says.

I've had my N55 for 8 years before this and almost 200k miles and all I used was motul 5w40

[edycol]

Originally Posted by lens

My access to newtis begs to differ


Bearing tolerances are pretty tight, and so are pretty much other things in the engine.

My experience in developing oils beg to differ.
LL01 and LL04 are go to oils in EU, markets with high sulfur gas atc. in B generation engines.
I am wondering how these engines survive cold starts.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by lens

300v is fine, it's ester based so you have a maximum of 3k miles (5000km) oil changes, issue with this is 300v is expensive as hell for low OCI, it is a racing oil so it's super overkill unless you live in summer climate 365 days a year.

T6 is overkill and may be a problem in B58 engine as clearance is tight.

Run Motul 8100 5W30 gen 2 or Liqu-moly, OCI at 5-6k miles and call it a day.


Subaru is an odd platform, and you should not transfer any knowledge from it to European cars as they operate on opposite ends of a ruler.

300V and summer climate don’t correlate. Your oil temperature is maintained by oil coolers and cooling system.
What affects oil temperature is altitude. When air density is lower, cooling is compromised. But, you DO NOT run racing oil because it is hot or one lives where I do, Colorado.
Racing oils have different additives and generally have higher HTHS. When HTHS is not enough, only thing that prevents engine from damage are additives. Problem in racing oils is that some additives that are extremely good in protecting engines are not that efficient when oil temperature is low. They don’t clean well at low temperatures. In regular driving, low oil temperature is very common. And when I say low, I mean regular oil temperature. Also, in street driving, very iften commute is short enough where oil doesn’t reach operating temperature or stays at operating temperature for such short period of time that cleaning cannot be effective.
Running 300V is OK if vehicle sees track every weekend. If vehicle sees track 2-3 times a year, any LL01 oil with Porsche A40 approval will do it.

As for T6, there is no such thing as overkill. Oil is nit desigend for this application. Any LL01 or LL04 oil is far better product. I would never run T6 on track. Some iff the shelf LL01? Yes.

[lens]

Originally Posted by edycol

My experience in developing oils beg to differ.
LL01 and LL04 are go to oils in EU, markets with high sulfur gas atc. in B generation engines.
I am wondering how these engines survive cold starts.

coated bearings that was new, put in B series engines.

[Ivilla035]

Originally Posted by lens

coated bearings that was new, put in B series engines.

I've had rotella t6 in my b58 for a good while now, thinking about switching back to motul or Liqui moly. Not sure.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by lens

coated bearings that was new, put in B series engines.

Ok. And?

[Ivilla035]

Originally Posted by edycol

300V and summer climate don’t correlate. Your oil temperature is maintained by oil coolers and cooling system.
What affects oil temperature is altitude. When air density is lower, cooling is compromised. But, you DO NOT run racing oil because it is hot or one lives where I do, Colorado.
Racing oils have different additives and generally have higher HTHS. When HTHS is not enough, only thing that prevents engine from damage are additives. Problem in racing oils is that some additives that are extremely good in protecting engines are not that efficient when oil temperature is low. They don’t clean well at low temperatures. In regular driving, low oil temperature is very common. And when I say low, I mean regular oil temperature. Also, in street driving, very iften commute is short enough where oil doesn’t reach operating temperature or stays at operating temperature for such short period of time that cleaning cannot be effective.
Running 300V is OK if vehicle sees track every weekend. If vehicle sees track 2-3 times a year, any LL01 oil with Porsche A40 approval will do it.

As for T6, there is no such thing as overkill. Oil is nit desigend for this application. Any LL01 or LL04 oil is far better product. I would never run T6 on track. Some iff the shelf LL01? Yes.

Check my new comparison thread if you can, thanks for the help!

[Ivilla035]

Originally Posted by lens

It also says up to 5w30 for B58 engines, there's a reason why motul created a Gen2 for their oil

Either way, just follow what the manual says.

I've had my N55 for 8 years before this and almost 200k miles and all I used was motul 5w40

Why did they make a xcess gen2, and does it matter for b58, going to switch from t6

[lens]

Originally Posted by edycol

Ok. And?

Originally Posted by edycol

I am wondering how these engines survive cold starts.

^

[lens]

Originally Posted by Ivilla035

I've had rotella t6 in my b58 for a good while now, thinking about switching back to motul or Liqui moly. Not sure.

Problem here is everyone treats BMW like it's the same engine as every other engine manufacturer out there.

The B series engines is not the same as N series engine.

And BMW engines is not the same as honda/toyota engines.

They use specific oils and oil weight so they don't excessively wear, and if you've ever owned a N55, you can see how long it takes for the oil to warm up.

You can develop oil all you want, but my 8 years of experience and 185k miles of hard driving (track duty, winter duty at -20F and lower) using certain oils (Liquimoly, Motul, Amsoil) and managing to get that many miles with no engine failure tells you something (especially in a place where N55 rod bearing failure is everywhere). Didn't use T6.

All you have to follow is use LL-01 only, short OCI, and check oil levels occasionally.

LL-04 is EU only and should not be used outside of it.

I stuck to Motul due to reliability (over 100k miles of just motul) and it's okay to use for the track.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by lens

^

That is not magical trick in the sleeve.
If that was the case, industry would move long time ago. Golden rule of lubrication is: as thin as possible, as thick as necessary.
Again, this engine is recommended to use LL04 in Europe, and LL01 in markets with high sulfur gas and generally markets with different emissions testing procedures. CAFE is uniquely American thing, and thin oil gets you actual benefits when fleet consumption is calculated.
That is it! It is trading wear for mpg. As for practical purposes, you could run 20W60. Toyota allows 20W50 in engines that use, read carefully, 0W8.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by lens

Problem here is everyone treats BMW like it's the same engine as every other engine manufacturer out there.

The B series engines is not the same as N series engine.

And BMW engines is not the same as honda/toyota engines.

They use specific oils and oil weight so they don't excessively wear, and if you've ever owned a N55, you can see how long it takes for the oil to warm up.

You can develop oil all you want, but my 8 years of experience and 185k miles of hard driving (track duty, winter duty at -20F and lower) using certain oils (Liquimoly, Motul, Amsoil) and managing to get that many miles with no engine failure tells you something (especially in a place where N55 rod bearing failure is everywhere). Didn't use T6.

All you have to follow is use LL-01 only, short OCI, and check oil levels occasionally.

LL-04 is EU only and should not be used outside of it.

I stuck to Motul due to reliability (over 100k miles of just motul) and it's okay to use for the track.

LL04 is fine in the US. It basically thicker version of LL17FE.
BMW is horrible in being consistent in recomending oils. Not as bad as Hyundai or VW, but still bad.
LL04 is basically mid/low-SAPS version of LL01. Since 01/17 it is fine to use here.

[AspektUSA]

Originally Posted by lens

Problem here is everyone treats BMW like it's the same engine as every other engine manufacturer out there.

The B series engines is not the same as N series engine.

And BMW engines is not the same as honda/toyota engines.

They use specific oils and oil weight so they don't excessively wear, and if you've ever owned a N55, you can see how long it takes for the oil to warm up.

You can develop oil all you want, but my 8 years of experience and 185k miles of hard driving (track duty, winter duty at -20F and lower) using certain oils (Liquimoly, Motul, Amsoil) and managing to get that many miles with no engine failure tells you something (especially in a place where N55 rod bearing failure is everywhere). Didn't use T6.

All you have to follow is use LL-01 only, short OCI, and check oil levels occasionally.

LL-04 is EU only and should not be used outside of it.

I stuck to Motul due to reliability (over 100k miles of just motul) and it's okay to use for the track.

My take is LL-04 is roughly equivalent to VW 504, which has been approved for use since around 2018 in the US.

VWAG is now on VW 508 or 511 I believe now.

LL-17FE+ is a low SAPS thin oil, with LL-04 as its thicker brother as edycol puts it.

As of 2023, the US should be on 10ppm sulphur fuel nationwide by now.

[Ivilla035]

Originally Posted by AspektUSA

My take is LL-04 is roughly equivalent to VW 504, which has been approved for use since around 2018 in the US.

VWAG is now on VW 508 or 511 I believe now.

LL-17FE+ is a low SAPS thin oil, with LL-04 as its thicker brother as edycol puts it.

As of 2023, the US should be on 10ppm sulphur fuel nationwide by now.

LL01 would be the move for the b58 correct... I'm switching to motul xcess 5w40

[AspektUSA]

Originally Posted by Ivilla035

LL01 would be the move for the b58 correct... I'm switching to motul xcess 5w40

Either or is fine, LL-04 / VW504 may prevent coking of the valves to some degree though.

I think the B series is better suited to low/mid SAPS than high, but likely doesn't matter much.

[Ivilla035]

Originally Posted by AspektUSA

Either or is fine, LL-04 / VW504 may prevent coking of the valves to some degree though.

I think the B series is better suited to low/mid SAPS than high, but likely doesn't matter much.

Makes sense. I've heard Motul would be pretty competitive for street/track use. Xcess gen 2 at least.

[Jnat]

My 2cents is i've run T6 in an N54/N55 and now B58, all modded to different levels including turbo upgrade on B58.
I won't challenge on any of the points about LL this or that. My use of it started yes you got it with a WRX and STI but it has served me well for over 15 years in all my turbo vehicles... i recommend it based not on stats but how it has served all my turbo cars... which i think is 8...