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      10-16-2021, 05:56 AM   #45
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Reviews popping up all over the place, Autotrader here. Rory seems to find the ride pretty harsh -
The ride issue would put me off. however somewhere in the launch reporting I have read both the 3 and Y will be available with Air suspension within a year.
Possibly when they start coming from Berlin with the new chassis?

Same with me, a poor ride is about the only thing that I'd struggle to tolerate on any car. If it wasn't for both Autogefuhl and What Car mentioning that I'd probably have hit order. Still tempted.
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      10-16-2021, 07:58 AM   #46
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You raise an interesting point there. I've always assumed an EV charging network will ultimately consist of sites dedicated for that purpose - or attached to things like motorway service areas where people don't stop for long - and hence I wouldn't necessarily expect a destination like Alton Towers to provide EV charging points (any more than I'd expect them to have an on-site filling station for petrol and diesel). But maybe I'm wrong?
Yep, they are a great way to get people in to your destination outlet, so we have them at the one hotel with a car park (provided by Tesla...) so a roaring trade at the coffee shop nearby as people get a quick top up...

And if you EV drivers are ever coming to London you know where to stay...
But to some extent don't facilities like that exist because a proper charging network isn't yet available? And with a place like Alton Towers, would visitors be expected to come back out of the theme park to move their cars so others could use the charging point or would there be some sort of valet service shifting cars around?!

As for coming to London, thanks for the offer but regardless of ICE or EV for me allowing the train to take the strain makes far more sense than driving down there!
Charging and filling up are fundamentally different though, so I think that mindset shift to destination charging is something that needs to happen? Filling with diesel takes all of 5 mins, so I wouldn't expect to turn up, park and connect myself to a pump. Whereas with longer charging times, to make electric more attractive to the masses, it would be helpful to turn up, park and when you leave 2 days later the car is fully charged and ready to go. Rather than having to make my way to a dedicated charging station to wait for 30-45mins.
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      10-16-2021, 08:25 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by pmgreenwood View Post
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Originally Posted by cramsnik View Post
Reviews popping up all over the place, Autotrader here. Rory seems to find the ride pretty harsh -
The ride issue would put me off. however somewhere in the launch reporting I have read both the 3 and Y will be available with Air suspension within a year.
The ride on my model 3 is not an issue in the slightest
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      10-16-2021, 08:29 AM   #48
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The ride on my model 3 is not an issue in the slightest
But them some people buy M Sport BMW's on 20-inch rims and runflats and claim ride is not an issue

Views on ride is always a personal thing, to some, it matters others are prepared to put up with higher levels of bump thump.

The same happens on the Macan forum where some are happy with a Macan on 21's wheels and no adaptive/PASM suspension, some say a Macan on 21's needs Air and PASM suspension and at the other extreme some like 18 wheels PASM and air suspension
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      10-16-2021, 08:33 AM   #49
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Reviews popping up all over the place, Autotrader here. Rory seems to find the ride pretty harsh -
The ride issue would put me off. however somewhere in the launch reporting I have read both the 3 and Y will be available with Air suspension within a year.
The ride on my model 3 is not an issue in the slightest
The general view seems to be that the Y rides worse than the 3. Autogefuhl also said that it handles even better. Odd setup choices perhaps.
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      10-16-2021, 08:35 AM   #50
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The ride on my model 3 is not an issue in the slightest
But them some people buy M Sport BMW's on 20-inch rims and runflats and claim ride is not an issue

Views on ride is always a personal thing, to some, it matters others are prepared to put up with higher levels of bump thump.

The same happens on the Macan forum where some are happy with a Macan on 21's wheels and no adaptive/PASM suspension, some say a Macan on 21's needs Air and PASM suspension and at the other extreme some like 18 wheels PASM and air suspension
Definitely personal and the same on the Disco forums where some can't tell the 22s from the 21s. Personally, I can, and both ride far harsher than on 19s when it's serenely smooth. (All air, my own car is the only one I've ever driven with adaptive though).
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      10-16-2021, 08:49 AM   #51
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I can put up with a firm ride in my sporty boy racer estate, but if I am buying an electric SUV, I am looking more for refinement and comfort than out and out handling.
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      10-16-2021, 10:38 AM   #52
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Charging and filling up are fundamentally different though, so I think that mindset shift to destination charging is something that needs to happen? Filling with diesel takes all of 5 mins, so I wouldn't expect to turn up, park and connect myself to a pump. Whereas with longer charging times, to make electric more attractive to the masses, it would be helpful to turn up, park and when you leave 2 days later the car is fully charged and ready to go. Rather than having to make my way to a dedicated charging station to wait for 30-45mins.
Destination charging is obviously one option but isn't a better solution to have EV's with a range that's sufficient to make longer trips feasible without the need to recharge? That way those who can charge at home will then only need to visit public recharging points in exceptional circumstances and those who can't charge at home won't need to visit those recharging points as often either.

Perhaps I'm looking at it the wrong way but to my mind having lots of destination charging is treating a symptom when really the solution is to fix the problem (i.e. the relatively poor range of most EV's).
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      10-16-2021, 10:45 AM   #53
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I think Kia EV6 is a winner AWD Packed with a 7 year warranty to boot.
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      10-16-2021, 11:07 AM   #54
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Charging and filling up are fundamentally different though, so I think that mindset shift to destination charging is something that needs to happen? Filling with diesel takes all of 5 mins, so I wouldn't expect to turn up, park and connect myself to a pump. Whereas with longer charging times, to make electric more attractive to the masses, it would be helpful to turn up, park and when you leave 2 days later the car is fully charged and ready to go. Rather than having to make my way to a dedicated charging station to wait for 30-45mins.
Destination charging is obviously one option but isn't a better solution to have EV's with a range that's sufficient to make longer trips feasible without the need to recharge? That way those who can charge at home will then only need to visit public recharging points in exceptional circumstances and those who can't charge at home won't need to visit those recharging points as often either.

Perhaps I'm looking at it the wrong way but to my mind having lots of destination charging is treating a symptom when really the solution is to fix the problem (i.e. the relatively poor range of most EV's).
Destination charging is an easier short-term solution though, however both need to be done.
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      10-16-2021, 11:11 AM   #55
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Destination charging is an easier short-term solution though, however both need to be done.
How many 30 or 40 bed country hotels are going to be able to provide 7 watt overnight chargers for each room?

The most I have seen at any "destination" hotel is 4 chargers
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      10-16-2021, 03:29 PM   #56
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However in the last few weeks, she's been using my Model 3 for commuting. Two days in and she announces she absolutely loves it and how much better of a drive it is than the Volvo...
Doesn’t anything drive better than a Volvo? Not known for an astounding drivetrain!

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But them some people buy M Sport BMW's on 20-inch rims and runflats and claim ride is not an issue

Views on ride is always a personal thing, to some, it matters others are prepared to put up with higher levels of bump thump.

The same happens on the Macan forum where some are happy with a Macan on 21's wheels and no adaptive/PASM suspension, some say a Macan on 21's needs Air and PASM suspension and at the other extreme some like 18 wheels PASM and air suspension
This totally. I bought my M140i with adaptive and even on comfort the suspension would give me grief and chest pain (old injury). So I went back to an adaptive 335d, I’ve said it before but I’m one of the few that love the xdrive adaptive wallowy suspension, I can’t think of another car that can give the same performance with a comfy suspension setup….?
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      10-16-2021, 06:37 PM   #57
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Got my nephews coming up to stay for a week just before Xmas - considering a Tesla test drive just to see what it's like with a BEV and something different for the nephews.
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      10-16-2021, 08:12 PM   #58
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if green cars eventually have 500 plus mile ranges batteries get lighter etc and most people charge from home what's the point in building a vast charging point infrastructure.
Perhaps we promote innovation ie if no superchargers ionity etc manufacturers will innovative to create cars that will drive much longer distances cleaner tech n fuel. Hence waiting and watching to see how this cat n mouse game pans out.
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      10-17-2021, 04:06 AM   #59
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if green cars eventually have 500 plus mile ranges batteries get lighter etc and most people charge from home what's the point in building a vast charging point infrastructure.
Perhaps we promote innovation ie if no superchargers ionity etc manufacturers will innovative to create cars that will drive much longer distances cleaner tech n fuel. Hence waiting and watching to see how this cat n mouse game pans out.
You're right, EV's with a longer range should reduce the need for lots and lots of charging points. However, a large number of people have no off-street parking so unless there's a development to facilitate the wireless charging of EV's I assume those individuals will be reliant on a charging network of some sort? And of course even with a longer range there will always be occasions when people need to charge away from home (business trips, holidays, etc) so a charging infrastructure will still be needed.

Might be wrong but I think we'll see some significant improvements in battery technology and EV ranges over the next 5 to 10 years; if and when cars like (say) Tesla Model 3's are able to match the range as well as the performance of (say) M340d's that will be a game changer for EV's IMO.
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      10-17-2021, 04:43 AM   #60
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Might be wrong but I think we'll see some significant improvements in battery technology and EV ranges over the next 5 to 10 years
You can say this for potential any technology, and if are always waiting for the next best thing you will never end up with anything.

Battery technology has plateaued, the Model 3/Y have no bigger/lighter batteries than the S that came out in 2011. Infact the latest Plaid S is still using the same cell technology as the 2011 cars.

What is becoming quite obvious with EVs is as mass adoption speeds up incentives are rapidly disappearing and fuel costs going up.

I've had x3 EV chargers fitted for free at 3 different properties through government incentives, I received to the tune of £15k worth of 'rewards' from Tesla essentially for been an early adopter - Powerwall, 22inch wheels, mini Tesla. Even the actual cost of the cars have gone up, not forgetting my car has 'free for life' Supercharging and connectivity.

After 65k miles, trips all over the UK, and to France in EVs, the technology is already more than good enough. Next year we'll be heading to just south of the Arctic circle with 6 people in the EV.

The Model Y has more than enough range, performance, utility for most families. The cost is a much bigger issue than the technology.
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      10-17-2021, 05:23 AM   #61
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Might be wrong but I think we'll see some significant improvements in battery technology and EV ranges over the next 5 to 10 years; if and when cars like (say) Tesla Model 3's are able to match the range as well as the performance of (say) M340d's that will be a game changer for EV's IMO.
You can say this for potential any technology, and if are always waiting for the next best thing you will never end up with anything.

Battery technology has plateaued, the Model 3/Y have no bigger/lighter batteries than the S that came out in 2011. Infact the latest Plaid S is still using the same cell technology as the 2011 cars.

What is becoming quite obvious with EVs is as mass adoption speeds up incentives are rapidly disappearing and fuel costs going up.

I've had x3 EV chargers fitted for free at 3 different properties through government incentives, I received to the tune of £15k worth of 'rewards' from Tesla essentially for been an early adopter - Powerwall, 22inch wheels, mini Tesla. Even the actual cost of the cars have gone up, not forgetting my car has 'free for life' Supercharging and connectivity.

After 65k miles, trips all over the UK, and to France in EVs, the technology is already more than good enough. Next year we'll be heading to just south of the Arctic circle with 6 people in the EV.

The Model Y has more than enough range, performance, utility for most families. The cost is a much bigger issue than the technology.
It might work for you and your circumstances but that doesn't mean it will work for everyone; for a start, not everyone can charge at home and not everyone can afford a Tesla with access to their much better charging network.

I do take your point about if you wait for the "best" you'll never buy anything but, as has been suggested on a number of other threads, EV technology is as poor as it's ever going to be and personally I'll be surprised if, with more manufacturers entering the fray, competition doesn't result in some improvements. So personally I'm content to stick with my ICE car for now and wait and see how things develop; I might well think differently if I was still a company car driver with BIK costs to consider but I'm not....
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      10-17-2021, 03:07 PM   #62
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I think if it's going to be the main car, then 250+ real world miles (ie, in the winter, crap weather) is a must. I can think of a number of times year before last when we did that journey, either in one hit, or there and back with a stop in the middle.

The stop in the middle is key, though, as mentioned with Alton Towers (one of the places we went to). We often do 100 + miles, spend the day, then back again. If at places that are all day destinations they have a large number of 3kw / 7kw chargers, then range is less of an issue. These places don't all need super chargers, just enough for people to plug in, top up, then get home again.

Of course the cost of this sort of thing isn't cheap, but a bit more joined up thinking.....

Back to the Y, and yes, from an EV point of view is good enough, if you can get passed the looks and interior, but as has been said, that's a high entry point price wise
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      10-17-2021, 03:30 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gangzoom View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JNW1 View Post
Might be wrong but I think we'll see some significant improvements in battery technology and EV ranges over the next 5 to 10 years
You can say this for potential any technology, and if are always waiting for the next best thing you will never end up with anything.

Battery technology has plateaued, the Model 3/Y have no bigger/lighter batteries than the S that came out in 2011. Infact the latest Plaid S is still using the same cell technology as the 2011 cars.

What is becoming quite obvious with EVs is as mass adoption speeds up incentives are rapidly disappearing and fuel costs going up.

I've had x3 EV chargers fitted for free at 3 different properties through government incentives, I received to the tune of £15k worth of 'rewards' from Tesla essentially for been an early adopter - Powerwall, 22inch wheels, mini Tesla. Even the actual cost of the cars have gone up, not forgetting my car has 'free for life' Supercharging and connectivity.

After 65k miles, trips all over the UK, and to France in EVs, the technology is already more than good enough. Next year we'll be heading to just south of the Arctic circle with 6 people in the EV.

The Model Y has more than enough range, performance, utility for most families. The cost is a much bigger issue than the technology.
Tesla gave you a free powerwall? £15k of incentives would rather make you a fan of the brand.
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      10-17-2021, 04:55 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JNW1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
if green cars eventually have 500 plus mile ranges batteries get lighter etc and most people charge from home what's the point in building a vast charging point infrastructure.
Perhaps we promote innovation ie if no superchargers ionity etc manufacturers will innovative to create cars that will drive much longer distances cleaner tech n fuel. Hence waiting and watching to see how this cat n mouse game pans out.
You're right, EV's with a longer range should reduce the need for lots and lots of charging points. However, a large number of people have no off-street parking so unless there's a development to facilitate the wireless charging of EV's I assume those individuals will be reliant on a charging network of some sort? And of course even with a longer range there will always be occasions when people need to charge away from home (business trips, holidays, etc) so a charging infrastructure will still be needed.

Might be wrong but I think we'll see some significant improvements in battery technology and EV ranges over the next 5 to 10 years; if and when cars like (say) Tesla Model 3's are able to match the range as well as the performance of (say) M340d's that will be a game changer for EV's IMO.
if the ev revolution has taught us one thing it is that there will be change and innovation. Add in competition with major manufacturers jumping in its going to get interesting. There will be forms of green mobility that suit individual circumstances in the time ahead.
I remember moving from landline to mobiles and how battery weight and size kept improving a great deal in mobiles and a 10 year period would cause such major improvements. I don't think it's unfair to expect the Same from car batteries.
It doesn't mean one should wait 10 years if ones current circumstances financial or otherwise suit ev use equally if it doesn't it won't hurt to wait a wee while.
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      10-18-2021, 11:09 AM   #65
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Tesla gave you a free powerwall? £15k of incentives would rather make you a fan of the brand.
by the same token, a poor experience usually far outweighs freebies when it comes to the tone of a recommendation (or none-recommendation).
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      10-18-2021, 12:06 PM   #66
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Tesla gave you a free powerwall? £15k of incentives would rather make you a fan of the brand.
by the same token, a poor experience usually far outweighs freebies when it comes to the tone of a recommendation (or none-recommendation).
I've got a pretty reasonable level of happiness with LR, and BMW before them. I can pretty much guarantee that i would be a bigger advocate of either if they'd lobbed a powerwall in my garage.

Not knocking it, it's human nature. Just found it very interesting and illuminating.

(One reason I am happy with LR is sort of from an incentive perspective. Rejection of my first car meant that 12 months in a £80k list car cost me less than £3k. Or to put it into incentive terms, as the paperwork shows, they injected an extra £17.7k into the deal for the replacement on top of the prevailing discount).
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