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      10-20-2020, 03:49 PM   #89
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      10-20-2020, 03:53 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdM5 View Post
Nou moet ik eerlijk zeggen dat arrogante Hollanders het accent van Max over het algemeen maar dommig vinden (Limburgs). Zeker geen "Hollands".

En helemaal eens, hopelijk gaat hij nog een paar races winnen dit jaar

We sluiten hier deze discussie!
Zo jammer van Zandvoort ! Gezien dit een immense investering was !
Zantvoort ziet er fantastisch uit met die banking , alles was al in paraatheid gebracht en de rush om de werken op tijd klaar te krijgen .
En dan plotseling....Dat verdomde klote virus dat alles op on-hold kon zetten .
Hopelijk in Zandvoort voor volgend jaar als het virus eindelijk verdwenen is . Al heb ik hier mijn sterke twijfels over..

Ik zou zeggen , blijf ondertussen gezond en veilig mijn vriend !
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      10-20-2020, 04:38 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
A rich father with contacts in F1 is most definitely an advantage.

But anyway Ricciardo v Verstappen


If Verstappen was such a hotshot you would thought he would have done a lot better against Ricciardo.
A rich father ? I agree , that was the situation in MAX's successful kart career , because in the beginning all the money has to come from the own pockets !
He was the best of the world ! That's what MAX showed on the kart circuits .
Money helped but actually that doesn't matter . The driver has to show his driver skills to get in the worlds spot lights ..
That's what MAX actually did ..

But Jos's influence was nowhere in the F1 . Some slimy talk has no influence in the todays F1 !
It's what you can show to the F1 teams, and that's all about drivers performances .

RIC ? Mate are you serious ?

RIC had already 6 years of driver experience in the F1 and drove the Red Bull actually already blindfolded !
While MAX drove his first races without drivers license , age 17 !

In F1 terms that's like a grandpa vs a kid !
Anyway , RIC felt it was time to leave and walked because the kid was after a few races suddenly faster !
If RIC was stayed at Red Bull . MAX would have brought him down completely , and RIC's market value would be worth nothing anymore ...

So , RIC's escape plan worked really well ...
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      10-20-2020, 04:43 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
A rich father ? I agree , that was the situation in MAX's successful kart career , because in the beginning all the money has to come from the own pockets !
He was the best of the world ! That's what MAX showed on the kart circuits .
Money helped but actually that doesn't matter . The driver has to show his driver skills to get in the worlds spot lights ..
That's what MAX actually did ..

But Jos's influence was nowhere in the F1 . Some slimy talk has no influence in the todays F1 !
It's what you can show to the F1 teams, and that's all about drivers performances .

RIC ? Mate are you serious ?

RIC had already 6 years of driver experience in the F1 and drove the Red Bull actually already blindfolded !
While MAX drove his first races without drivers license , age 17 !

In F1 terms that's like a grandpa vs a kid !
Anyway , RIC felt it was time to leave and walked because the kid was after a few races suddenly faster !
If RIC was stayed at Red Bull . MAX would have brought him down completely , and RIC's market value would be worth nothing anymore ...

So , RIC's escape plan worked really well ...
Well said.
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      10-20-2020, 04:53 PM   #93
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And roll the excuses B-roll. Always the same story. Exactly why so many here are tired of this BS
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      10-20-2020, 05:00 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
You're kidding, right?

Modern F1 cars practically drive themselves, you need only super quick reflexes and to keep the speed up (to keep the heat in the tires).

The older cars took real balls to drive, something I question in the new breed.
There is no warning for break away with these cars. The older cars had gentle break aways and lots of warning. These high-downforce cars do the opposite. And don't even go into the steering wheel. Most people can't operate the radio buttons and check the menus on their street car. Now let's look at resenting the KERS at speed as HAM did in race conditions and lost 2 Tenths of a second on the lap.

Anyone thinking that it is easy to drive a modern F1 car has zero idea about modern Formula One. Here is a quick comparison.
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      10-20-2020, 05:10 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
There is no warning for break away with these cars. The older cars had gentle break aways and lots of warning.
I disagree, somewhat. The older cars might have given more warning (because of the tires mostly), but it was absolutely constant, especially in the rain. They wore the drivers out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
And don't even go into the steering wheel.
Again, using your fingers to drive. The old guys used ONE HAND and shifted the cars.

I'm not saying that the new cars can be driven by monkeys, I'm just saying it's a different skillset.
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      10-20-2020, 05:17 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
I disagree, somewhat. The older cars might have given more warning (because of the tires mostly), but it was absolutely constant, especially in the rain. They wore the drivers out.



Again, using your fingers to drive. The old guys used ONE HAND and shifted the cars.

I'm not saying that the new cars can be driven by monkeys, I'm just saying it's a different skillset.
A great driver is a great driver. Chuck Yeager proved this when he put the F86 up against the MiG 15. Everyone thought the winning F86 won because it was an F86 but Yeager went up in the MiG 15 and destroyed the F86. The F86 pilot was a serious pilot and couldn't shake Yeager because he was a better pilot.

These are directly analogous.

Hamilton could drive an older car just as Senna could drive a newer one. I believe that there could be a technical gulf back to Clark's era but I'm not certain.

On your part about the cars wearing you out: The drivers are pulling 4-6 Gs on a constant basis. Formula One drivers are exposed to more "G" than any other humans on the planet. More than fighter pilots. More than astronauts. To say that an older car would wear these drivers out who are infinitely more fit and scientifically trained and managed is a bit naive.
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      10-20-2020, 05:53 PM   #97
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Geezus who really cares where Max is from. And I thought US citizens were the ones most hung up on stuff like that.

Some of the comments from you guys as well. Modern F1 car basically drives it self....... Where does this shit come from?
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      10-20-2020, 06:14 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post

RIC ? Mate are you serious ?
RIC had already 6 years of driver experience in the F1 and drove the Red Bull actually already blindfolded !
While MAX drove his first races without drivers license , age 17 !
While Hamilton bested a 2DWC driver in his rookie year.
Thats the difference natural driving talent makes.
Same for Senna...you knew from the beginning that he was special.
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      10-20-2020, 06:20 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
A great driver is a great driver. Chuck Yeager proved this when he put the F86 up against the MiG 15. Everyone thought the winning F86 won because it was an F86 but Yeager went up in the MiG 15 and destroyed the F86. The F86 pilot was a serious pilot and couldn't shake Yeager because he was a better pilot.

These are directly analogous.

Hamilton could drive an older car just as Senna could drive a newer one. I believe that there could be a technical gulf back to Clark's era but I'm not certain.

On your part about the cars wearing you out: The drivers are pulling 4-6 Gs on a constant basis. Formula One drivers are exposed to more "G" than any other humans on the planet. More than fighter pilots. More than astronauts. To say that an older car would wear these drivers out who are infinitely more fit and scientifically trained and managed is a bit naive.
I disagree with pretty much all of this.

Different skills, learned very early on, and can't be assimilated so quickly.

And the older cars were definitely harder on the drivers, even with less g's.
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      10-20-2020, 08:43 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
I disagree with pretty much all of this.

Different skills, learned very early on, and can't be assimilated so quickly.

And the older cars were definitely harder on the drivers, even with less g's.
Well. You may disagree with it but it doesn't invalidate the information. You can grab Chuck Yeager's book and read the story.

And if you believe that the older cars with less speed are harder on you, the next time there is a club event at your track I enjoin you to go out in a VW GTI and follow up with a GT3-RS. That's about the relative speed difference in the F1 cars we are discussing. You'll be shocked.
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      10-21-2020, 12:19 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Well. You may disagree with it but it doesn't invalidate the information. You can grab Chuck Yeager's book and read the story.

And if you believe that the older cars with less speed are harder on you, the next time there is a club event at your track I enjoin you to go out in a VW GTI and follow up with a GT3-RS. That's about the relative speed difference in the F1 cars we are discussing. You'll be shocked.
The older cars are much more difficult to drive. They had narrow bias ply tires, no downforce, 400+hp through said narrow tires, manual transmission without synchros, etc.

The drivers were driving on tracks with no run-off and minimal safety features, meaning what is now a minor moment of oversteer and a trip through the asphalt after a corner was a fatal accident. No seatbelts, cork helmets, etc.

Of course, modern cars pull more G forces, but difficulty of driving a car is so much more than simply lateral acceleration.

A more apt comparison is to go out in an old GTI with engine mods giving it double the power, no seatbelt or other safety features, bad tires, and drive it at 10/10ths on a track with no safety features.

The new-ish F1 car I drove at Paul Ricard was much easier to drive on the limit than the old 1970s Formula Fords I've driven a few hot laps in. By a significant margin.
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      10-21-2020, 02:56 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
And if you believe that the older cars with less speed are harder on you, the next time there is a club event at your track I enjoin you to go out in a VW GTI and follow up with a GT3-RS. That's about the relative speed difference in the F1 cars we are discussing. You'll be shocked.
I think the physics are on your side wrt the difficulty of driving old vrs new F1 cars.

Drive an old pre-nannies 911 and you can feel exactly what the car is doing especially through the non assisted steering and medium profile tyres. Loss of grip is signalled early and is progressive.

Creating more grip through wide sticky low profile tyres and more sophisticated suspension makes the steering less communicative and tyre breakaway more abrupt. Adding in big increases in performance makes it even harder it is to find the limit and keep a car there.

ISTM that trying to compare Jim Clark with a modern F1 driver is a pointless exercise, he was a great driver of his era and thats all that can be said....Same Fangio etc.
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      10-21-2020, 04:32 AM   #103
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Five drivers figure in my top contenders for greatest driver.
1.Senna
2.Schumacher (When in Benetton and Ferrari)
3.M.Verstappen
and from past era
1.Fangio
2.Moss
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      10-21-2020, 09:07 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4play View Post
The older cars are much more difficult to drive. They had narrow bias ply tires, no downforce, 400+hp through said narrow tires, manual transmission without synchros, etc.

The drivers were driving on tracks with no run-off and minimal safety features, meaning what is now a minor moment of oversteer and a trip through the asphalt after a corner was a fatal accident. No seatbelts, cork helmets, etc.

Of course, modern cars pull more G forces, but difficulty of driving a car is so much more than simply lateral acceleration.

A more apt comparison is to go out in an old GTI with engine mods giving it double the power, no seatbelt or other safety features, bad tires, and drive it at 10/10ths on a track with no safety features.

The new-ish F1 car I drove at Paul Ricard was much easier to drive on the limit than the old 1970s Formula Fords I've driven a few hot laps in. By a significant margin.
Interesting. Were you driving the new-ish F1 car at the edge of the performance envelope? I'm not talking about tooling around at 60 or 70 percent. I'm discussing wringing the last erg of performance from the vehicle.

The break away for modern cars is savage. The cars of the past don't do this unless there is an unforeseen change in the coefficient of friction.
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      10-21-2020, 09:34 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Interesting. Were you driving the new-ish F1 car at the edge of the performance envelope? I'm not talking about tooling around at 60 or 70 percent. I'm discussing wringing the last erg of performance from the vehicle.

The break away for modern cars is savage. The cars of the past don't do this unless there is an unforeseen change in the coefficient of friction.
I just realized that when reading what you write (in general), this is the picture I get...

lol
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      10-21-2020, 10:11 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
I just realized that when reading what you write (in general), this is the picture I get...

lol
Ah yes. Deflect. Cheers!
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      10-21-2020, 10:44 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Interesting. Were you driving the new-ish F1 car at the edge of the performance envelope? I'm not talking about tooling around at 60 or 70 percent. I'm discussing wringing the last erg of performance from the vehicle.
I think you can still rent an old (AGS or something like that) F1 car with about 650hp at Paul Ricard. But its pretty expensive at about 7000 euros for 10 laps.
So its going to cost a small fortune to do enough laps to get comfortable enough to even approach its limit no matter how benign they set up the car for ham fisted amateurs.
Still got to be worth a go though if you were ever in the area.
Probably too much of a tight fit for me at 6 foot....I once managed to wangle a go in a race prepared (old school replica) Cobra but it was too tight to feel comfortable enough to really press on. Still it was a fun few laps.
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      10-21-2020, 11:00 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Interesting. Were you driving the new-ish F1 car at the edge of the performance envelope? I'm not talking about tooling around at 60 or 70 percent. I'm discussing wringing the last erg of performance from the vehicle.
2011 Williams FW33. Signes was a small lift and back on the power. I had 3 laps in the high 1:11s - the Paul Ricard Club Circuit lap record is Nigel Mansell in a 1990 Ferrari 641 at 1:08. So on a rev-restricted car with old, hard compound slicks, I was probably 5-6 seconds off the pace.

I was definitely not out for a Sunday drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
The break away for modern cars is savage. The cars of the past don't do this unless there is an unforeseen change in the coefficient of friction.
Have you driven a modern F1 car? Or are you just saying this based on watching races on TV? It's actually pretty progressive if you aren't being an idiot and mashing the pedal. For a first time driver, the most difficult thing to do lap after lap was to brake hard enough without locking up. You need a ton of pedal force to get the brakes to even work and the pedal travel is about 5mm, so it's difficult to modulate.

Obviously, the V6 Hybrid cars have more torque than the 2.4L cars did, so probably easier to spin them up on corner exit. But the modern chassis are very neutral and communicative (as you would expect).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I think you can still rent an old (AGS or something like that) F1 car with about 650hp at Paul Ricard. But its pretty expensive at about 7000 euros for 10 laps.
So its going to cost a small fortune to do enough laps to get comfortable enough to even approach its limit no matter how benign they set up the car for ham fisted amateurs.
Still got to be worth a go though if you were ever in the area.

Probably too much of a tight fit for me at 6 foot.
They have several options. Jaguar R2 with original V10, Prost AP04 and Benetton B198 (both with lower-revving V-8s), an old Williams FW21, and the newer FW33. It's definitely expensive, and the FW33 and R2 are definitely set up more aggressively (less restrictions on revs and slicks) than some of the others, which were on what looked like quite used intermediates. I'm 6'2" and fit in the Williams okay - it was a bit tight to turn the wheel in the last and first 2 corners of the Club circuit and my head was definitely sitting higher than Valtteri, Pastor, or Rubens did that year.

I had 8 laps and the first 4 were just adjusting to the car - the forces (especially braking) are so far beyond anything I had ever experienced and the brakes are quite tricky. Once you get some heat in them and have an idea of what is going to happen when you hit the pedal, it's a little bit easier.

Last edited by 4play; 10-21-2020 at 11:07 AM..
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      10-21-2020, 11:02 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
A rich father with contacts in F1 is most definitely an advantage.

But anyway *Ricciardo v Verstappen*



If Verstappen was such a hotshot you would thought he would have done a lot better against Ricciardo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
A rich father ? I agree , that was the situation in MAX's successful kart career , because in the beginning all the money has to come from the own pockets !
He was the best of the world ! That's what MAX showed on the kart circuits .
Money helped but actually that doesn't matter . The driver has to show his driver skills to get in the worlds spot lights ..
That's what MAX actually did ..

But Jos's influence was nowhere in the F1 . Some slimy talk has no influence in the todays F1 !
It's what you can show to the F1 teams, and that's all about drivers performances .

RIC ? Mate are you serious ?

RIC had already 6 years of driver experience in the F1 and drove the Red Bull actually already blindfolded !
While MAX drove his first races without drivers license , age 17 !

In F1 terms that's like a grandpa vs a kid !
Anyway , RIC felt it was time to leave and walked because the kid was after a few races suddenly faster !
If RIC was stayed at Red Bull . MAX would have brought him down completely , and RIC's market value would be worth nothing anymore ...

So , RIC's escape plan worked really well ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
While Hamilton bested a 2DWC driver in his rookie year.
Thats the difference natural driving talent makes.
Same for Senna...you knew from the beginning that he was special.
Wasn't your question from yesterday regarding *Ricciardo v Verstappen* ?

Yeah mate . Today the wind changed over here as well ..
Honestly . Today we are having a storm in Belgium !
Do you know that a storm actually a very strong wind is ?
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      10-21-2020, 11:09 AM   #110
MKSixer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4play View Post
2011 Williams FW33. Signes was a small lift and back on the power. I had 3 laps in the high 1:11s - the Paul Ricard Club Circuit lap record is Nigel Mansell in a 1990 Ferrari 641 at 1:08. So on a rev-restricted car with old, hard compound slicks, I was probably 5-6 seconds off the pace.

I was definitely not out for a Sunday drive.



Have you driven a modern F1 car? Or are you just saying this based on watching races on TV? It's actually pretty progressive if you aren't being an idiot and mashing the pedal. For a first time driver, the most difficult thing to do lap after lap was to brake hard enough without locking up. You need a ton of pedal force to get the brakes to even work and the pedal travel is about 5mm, so it's difficult to modulate.

Obviously, the V6 Hybrid cars have more torque than the 2.4L cars did, so probably easier to spin them up on corner exit. But the modern chassis are very neutral and communicative (as you would expect).
Nicely done, sir!! Excellent lap times!

I have not. I've driven and been driven in an old DTM car...Robert Wickens was my tutor. I've spent quite a bit of time with the Mercedes team prior to the Hybrid Era. Spot on about brakes and chassis performance. I'm now an old guy and left foot braking has always been a challenge...rewiring the brain isn't easy.

Having done so, both you and I know that the last ragged time is where the mistakes are made. This is my main point!!

Driving an FW33 moves you to hero status. Well done!!
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