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      10-20-2019, 04:47 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
The challenges of getting even say, 50% of vehicles on the road an EV is truly massive. Yet there are auto manufacturers seemingly planning to end production of vehicles powered by internal combustion. It seems like an delusional pipe dream. My thinking is it's really just virtue signaling executives that figure they'll be retired before everyone realizes how stupid of a business decision they made.
What a nightmare that could be. Imagine being on a trip and pulling into a station and having to wait behind several other cars that also need to recharge. Talk about road rage ...
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      10-20-2019, 05:40 PM   #24
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Think of how many people have houses. Charging at home covers the overwhelming majority of cases.
And think about how the additional demand will bring the current power grid to its knees. I live in a major metropolitan area and still lose power on occasion. I get a real kick out of when a major storm blows through and power goes out even though my neighborhood has underground power lines as it's a fairly new development. To add more insult to injury, there's a power substation directly across from the entrance to my development and major supply lines running along the length of the development.

When I bought my vacation home, the power company immediately offered me the option of having them install a control module to shut power off to my home during times of intense demand. I've shown up to my home on a number of occasions to see the blinking clocks on the kitchen appliances greeting me.
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      10-20-2019, 05:55 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by natahoa View Post
What a nightmare that could be. Imagine being on a trip and pulling into a station and having to wait behind several other cars that also need to recharge. Talk about road rage ...
Have you ever taken a road trip in a diesel vehicle? Many gas stations only have one or two diesel pumps, and they are always blocked by gas cars where the owners went inside to use the bathroom, have lunch, and wait for that evening's lottery drawing while you wait for them to move away from the pump. In all seriousness, I sat at a Royal Farms station in your neck of the woods last New Year's Eve for over 20 minutes, waiting for one of two parked cars to move away from the only diesel pump at that station. The second car (a PT Cruiser) didn't move by the time that I left, and I suspect that it was an employee's car parked there on purpose for their entire shift because there was nobody hanging out or waiting in line inside.

When I'm on road trips, I usually utilize the big-rig pumps at proper truck stops. That in itself is a completely different issue, because most don't have pay-at-the-pump without fleet fuel cards and require two trips across the lot to pre-pay for a hundred bucks of fuel and again to collect a few bucks in change.....
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      10-20-2019, 06:07 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Think of how many people have houses. Charging at home covers the overwhelming majority of cases.
From the article (and FTR David Booth the author is an electrical engineer who has been doing automotive journalism for decades.)

"and I have asked virtually every EV automaker and infrastructure engineer I have ever met the same question — has any idea how we’re going to recharge our cars when we go 100 per cent electric. In fact, one wag — who works for one of the three largest EV charging station suppliers in the world — says the current infrastructure build-out works until EVs get to about 8 per cent penetration (not market share, but registrations). After that, all bets are off."
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      10-20-2019, 06:31 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natahoa View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
The challenges of getting even say, 50% of vehicles on the road an EV is truly massive. Yet there are auto manufacturers seemingly planning to end production of vehicles powered by internal combustion. It seems like an delusional pipe dream. My thinking is it's really just virtue signaling executives that figure they'll be retired before everyone realizes how stupid of a business decision they made.
What a nightmare that could be. Imagine being on a trip and pulling into a station and having to wait behind several other cars that also need to recharge. Talk about road rage ...
Can you imagine waiting to charge while some chargers are blocked by fully-charged cars waiting for their owners to finish eating or shopping?
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      10-20-2019, 06:47 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Can you imagine waiting to charge while some chargers are blocked by fully-charged cars waiting for their owners to finish eating or shopping?
This has already been addressed in current fast charger stations. For example, Electrify America (VW's Dieselgate penance) charges 40 cents PER MINUTE if your car isn't disconnected within 10 minutes of the charge session ending. Many stations will send you a notification either through their app or via text when your charge session has ended, so there's no excuse about not knowing.....
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      10-20-2019, 06:54 PM   #29
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Can you imagine waiting to charge while some chargers are blocked by fully-charged cars waiting for their owners to finish eating or shopping?
This has already been addressed in current fast charger stations. For example, Electrify America (VW's Dieselgate penance) charges 40 cents PER MINUTE if your car isn't disconnected within 10 minutes of the charge session ending. Many stations will send you a notification either through their app or via text when your charge session has ended, so there's no excuse about not knowing.....
I'm not envisioning ignorance. I'm imagining that it might be challenging to synchronize completing charging with completing whatever activity I'm doing while waiting for my vehicle to charge.
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      10-20-2019, 06:58 PM   #30
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but where does all this electricity come from???
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      10-20-2019, 07:51 PM   #31
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but where does all this electricity come from???
Yea. You'd think people would value some energy diversification instead of putting everything onto the electric grid.

IMO the real problem is we aren't supposed to bring up these challenges lest we be shunned from society.
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      10-20-2019, 07:58 PM   #32
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in 25 years you'll be laughing that one day people thought we were going to convert to electric cars. Electric cars are ARCHAIC. the original car was Electric (before gas powered) and it failed then just like it will fail again. The electric car will fail every time!

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...pan-australia/
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      10-20-2019, 08:18 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Think of how many pumps are at any given gas station, so you'd need as many or more chargers to keep people moving, and then how much electricity will have to get to those charging stations along any given route. Do you think the current infrastructure can supply that much electricy while still supplying the grid for all of the other demands. The short answer is no, and the cost to create that infrastructure would be into the trillions very quickly. Not to mention the decades it would take to build it.
Oh I don't think it will ever happen. The cost will be astronomical and consumers will end up absorbing the cost so any savings will vanish. Right now people driving a plug in hybrid are paying additional fees for registration in many states regardless of how much they drive per year. This was part of the gasoline tax hike. The state government believes people driving a hybrid vehicle don't use enough gasoline therefore they have to pay in advance even if that person only drives 1000 miles a year. They are asked to pay the same surcharge rate of an average gasoline vehicle over 12,000 miles.
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      10-20-2019, 10:34 PM   #34
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but where does all this electricity come from???
I’m thinking’ China. if they can make money on it AND create national dependency, they WILL find a way.
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      10-21-2019, 07:06 AM   #35
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Oh I don't think it will ever happen. The cost will be astronomical and consumers will end up absorbing the cost so any savings will vanish. Right now people driving a plug in hybrid are paying additional fees for registration in many states regardless of how much they drive per year. This was part of the gasoline tax hike. The state government believes people driving a hybrid vehicle don't use enough gasoline therefore they have to pay in advance even if that person only drives 1000 miles a year. They are asked to pay the same surcharge rate of an average gasoline vehicle over 12,000 miles.
And lets not forget the gas tax, as more vehicles go electric government will lose revenue at the pumps.....how long before they find a way to make that up?
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      10-21-2019, 07:10 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by vreihen16 View Post
This has already been addressed in current fast charger stations. For example, Electrify America (VW's Dieselgate penance) charges 40 cents PER MINUTE if your car isn't disconnected within 10 minutes of the charge session ending. Many stations will send you a notification either through their app or via text when your charge session has ended, so there's no excuse about not knowing.....
About 10 years ago when the big push started in Ontario to get folks to convert to EV's and the government started offering $14,000 rebates Toronto hydro came out with a statement that said if 10% of vehicles were EV's in Toronto they would cause brown outs as the grid couldn't support the increased demand. Toronto has not spent the last decade increasing capacity so I think there is a huge disconnect between what the eco-warriors want and what the reality is or will be. i suspect that Toronto isn't much different than any other city, town, state or province when it comes to capacity.
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      10-21-2019, 09:26 AM   #37
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And think about how the additional demand will bring the current power grid to its knees. .
This is generally incorrect for a variety of reasons. If you talk about a scenario where tomorrow we have 50% electric vehicles, sure. That would cause some problems in certain areas. That's not how the EV change is happening though.

In general, the grid will be fine because :

Charge time will generally be off peak (overnight). Smart chargers and usage incentives will help here.

The actual rate of growth of EVs is being anticipated, planned for, and already implemented in the grid.

The power company WANTS that to happen. You know what your local electrical utility doesn't sell? Oil. You know what they get when their base swaps to EV. Money.

The local power company is the one pushing for more EV. It's a way to effectively double a customers bill.
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      10-21-2019, 09:52 AM   #38
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This is generally incorrect for a variety of reasons. If you talk about a scenario where tomorrow we have 50% electric vehicles, sure. That would cause some problems in certain areas. That's not how the EV change is happening though.

In general, the grid will be fine because :

Charge time will generally be off peak (overnight). Smart chargers and usage incentives will help here.

The actual rate of growth of EVs is being anticipated, planned for, and already implemented in the grid.

The power company WANTS that to happen. You know what your local electrical utility doesn't sell? Oil. You know what they get when their base swaps to EV. Money.

The local power company is the one pushing for more EV. It's a way to effectively double a customers bill.
So here in Ontario where we pay the highest hydro rates just about on the planet and the electric company is government owned the government had to borrow $3 Billion to offset consumer hydro rates because some folks had to decide weather to turn on their heat of buy food. With the push to get off of fossil fuel, home heating is going to have to switch to hydro, which will have nothing to do with off peak vs on peak, this is a complicated issue and the more demands we put on the system the bigger the chance for failure.
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      10-21-2019, 09:57 AM   #39
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So here in Ontario where we pay the highest hydro rates just about on the planet and the electric company is government owned the government had to borrow $3 Billion to offset consumer hydro rates because some folks had to decide weather to turn on their heat of buy food. With the push to get off of fossil fuel, home heating is going to have to switch to hydro, which will have nothing to do with off peak vs on peak, this is a complicated issue and the more demands we put on the system the bigger the chance for failure.
Those issues don't have much to do with EV loading. Price per kilowatt hour isn't load availability.

The means of production doesn't really change peak loading either. (at least with regards to hydro in general, or really any stable grid) Peak power is about consumer usage, not power development.
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      10-21-2019, 10:18 AM   #40
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I found this site interesting regarding Ontario's power sources, https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd...ls/on-eng.html
compared to Canada in general https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd...s/cda-eng.html
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      10-21-2019, 07:39 PM   #41
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I grew up in New England, which like Canada is cold and people MUST have heat. In the 1960s and 1970s, the electric utilities offered all sorts of incentives for people to have all electric homes.

1973 hits with the creation of OPEC and skyrocketing oil prices. People were astounded when the price of gas shot above 30 cents a gallon. Then of course electric rates went up so between buying gas and paying electric bills, many many people had to make hard choices, such as GOMs example of buying food or heat.

SO everyone got smart and stuck a wood stove in their fireplace. At least you could keep warm in one or two rooms of the house without spending a fortune. By the late 1980s the air quality had declined so much, from all the wood-burning stoves, that most cities put complete bans on wood-burning Fireplaces or stoves in new construction.

To solve the problem, utilities began building nuclear power plants, most of which, which at this point in time, are nearing the ends of their useful lives.

And did nuclear energy reduce anyone’s electric bill?
So so crazy.

The most effective thing utilities did was to promote conservation. Those ghastly low wattage bulbs are a huge contributor to saving energy. New heating systems and appliances also have a huge impact on consumption. But no ones electric bills have gone down. Cue the enormous - and growing - amount of power being used for computers, communication etc. the growth in electrical consumption for computers is staggering.

So, tell me Karnak, what happens when the nuclear plants are retired, communities fight new hydro mega plants, and everyone wants to plug in their car every night? Rooftop solar panels just aren’t going to cut it.

I hope I’m dead before I see the end game if this story. But I worry about my kids. Lots and lots of people will need to figure out how to do without.
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      10-21-2019, 09:05 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by natahoa View Post
I grew up in New England, which like Canada is cold and people MUST have heat. In the 1960s and 1970s, the electric utilities offered all sorts of incentives for people to have all electric homes.

1973 hits with the creation of OPEC and skyrocketing oil prices. People were astounded when the price of gas shot above 30 cents a gallon. Then of course electric rates went up so between buying gas and paying electric bills, many many people had to make hard choices, such as GOMs example of buying food or heat.

SO everyone got smart and stuck a wood stove in their fireplace. At least you could keep warm in one or two rooms of the house without spending a fortune. By the late 1980s the air quality had declined so much, from all the wood-burning stoves, that most cities put complete bans on wood-burning Fireplaces or stoves in new construction.

To solve the problem, utilities began building nuclear power plants, most of which, which at this point in time, are nearing the ends of their useful lives.

And did nuclear energy reduce anyone’s electric bill?
So so crazy.

The most effective thing utilities did was to promote conservation. Those ghastly low wattage bulbs are a huge contributor to saving energy. New heating systems and appliances also have a huge impact on consumption. But no ones electric bills have gone down. Cue the enormous - and growing - amount of power being used for computers, communication etc. the growth in electrical consumption for computers is staggering.

So, tell me Karnak, what happens when the nuclear plants are retired, communities fight new hydro mega plants, and everyone wants to plug in their car every night? Rooftop solar panels just aren’t going to cut it.

I hope I’m dead before I see the end game if this story. But I worry about my kids. Lots and lots of people will need to figure out how to do without.
If this is satire, then you should consider writing for the onion. If this isn't, perhaps you should take a deep breath or two. The world isn't ending because power plants have a life span.
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      10-21-2019, 09:55 PM   #43
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And lets not forget the gas tax, as more vehicles go electric government will lose revenue at the pumps.....how long before they find a way to make that up?
In the near future, electric cars will still be for the elite. There will be advances in charging system but it will not be for the masses.

I went on vacation in North Carolina Outer Banks recently and noticed a row of Tesla charging station at Harris Teeter grocery store. It's a high end grocery store owned by Krogers where a well-to-do motorist could come in to enjoy his cup of $5 Starbucks cappuccino.
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      10-22-2019, 08:20 AM   #44
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Only way to have EV work is require anyone buying an EV to install electric panel that cover all viable roof and patio space at their house, a electric backup station, and a charging pad that accessible to anybody. Hey you want to save the planet then go all the way.
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