[F30lolz]

Originally Posted by Kev314

I can understand not being aware of your previous posts on this topic and your unfortunate car. I was not aware and don't participate on this forum often enough to have noticed.

Nevertheless, it is most sad that many people will assume the worst of others and not bother to do a little asking or digging or conjecture as to why the apparent impossibility might, in fact, be possible. Sorry that you have been subjected to grade school level name-calling here.

Where are the apologies?

Haha it’s all good. I’ve called out phdat28, aka Goldilocks to contribute to this thread but looks like he’s disappeared into beer o’clock zone.

Just landed a remote job so the f36 won’t be subject to DD duties. Might take a while to get to 200k and beyond but I’ll be traveling a lot this summer to NY and FL so we’ll see if I take the e90/f36 or CTS.

[bryanbrian]

Originally Posted by heifetz17

With all due respect if it's your first BMW you can't really comment on reliability. I've had 12 different BMW's over the last 17 years and they've been some of the best cars I've ever owned if properly maintained. Every model has its common problems and if left ignored and let to fail that doesn't make the brand as a whole unreliable. I've never been left stranded by any model of BMW even with almost 280k miles.

True, one man's opinion based on one car. But in your case, 280k miles on 12 cars works out to only 23k miles per car. If you only put on that kind of mileage on your BMWs, then you should be fine with them. Try going +100k miles and you may have a different opinion. Properly maintaining will help but with specific design flaws like the N20 timing belt and the F30 steering column, you can only pray it does not break down.

[Slick_FThirty]

I sometimes wonder what's truly the root cause of unreliability. Sometimes I feel the cars are generally quite reliable with just some bad stories. After all, even if the rate of defects etc. is say 1%, it will still involve many people at the scale of BMW and the N20 (millions of N20s). Forums will amplify that. Even considering that, the forums have only had a handful of cases such as engine failure.

It's just that I have a lot of respect for the engineering and manufacturing process. There's so much thought, analysis, calculations, design, testing, and review that's carefully put into these cars. The engineers that BMW hires are some of the best. And the tools and facilities available to them are world-class. And the manufacturing of them with all those robots that literally do a perfect job is fascinating. Quality control is also top notch with x-rays and other futuristic diagnostic, imaging, and analysis tools. Everything is made in Germany, Switzerland, Austria etc.

I think plastic and other cost reduction pressures are significant from sales/execs who just spew numbers and cutoffs at the engineers. I think regulatory requirements and expectations from the government (reducing emissions, less oil disposal etc.) play a significant role as well. Even the shipping guys have their say in the weight and dimensions.

Unfortunate, but these cars and everything that goes into them are quite amazing. Would be interesting to see the warranty statistics and other metrics that BMW has available to them to see the true picture of things.

With the level of technology, understanding, and tools that are available in manufacturing cars these days, and how refined these processes have become (truly miraculous compared to a just a decade ago), I believe they are much more reliable then they are less reliable.

Yes, there are terrible experiences and we should watch out and pay attention, but there are many more success stories. Instead of thinking of which component failed, think about how many thousands of components on these cars NEVER fail. Lots of people have zero or a few minor failures over the lifetime of their car. That is very impressive.

The notion that BMW and their cars are crap is nonsense and probably involves smearing from other brands. Everything that goes into the car from conception of an idea for a car to one that rolls off the assembly line involves many very impressive things and very smart people. They are remarkable pieces of engineering, innovation, and brilliance.

Other manufacturers are nothing special either, they have similar pressures, requirements, competitors, and supply chains (eg VW and Audi timing chain). Sure, a Corolla with 120Hp, no turbo etc. will last a long time, because it's so simple, slow, and low-performing. Can't break something if there no stress on it etc. and that's fine and good for people who want that. Despite that, I've known people with Corollas that needed some decent repairs, including CVT transmission replacement, but you don't hear about that. Mazdas are rust buckets after 60k km where I live, and fall apart by 150k km. Few people in my region would consider buying a Mazda. Some of their dealers closed. Fords are definitely known for Fix Or Repair Daily, which my friends can vouch for. Don't even get started on Chrysler. Go to carcomplaints.com and put in Chevrolet. You'll be surprised. I don't see anything so special about these other brands.

[Slick_FThirty]

Was just reading about Hyundai Elantras between 2011-2016. Apparently, a bunch of their engines are grenading and require complete replacement. There's a class action for it. Worst vehicles by carcomplaints is 1. Ford Explorer 2. Honda Accord 3. Hyundai Sonata 4. Jeep Grand Cherokee 5. Nissan Altima 6. Hyundai Elantra etc.

No BMW in the top 20.

Grass is always greener on the other side. Yet people would likely more favourably see Ford, Honda, or Hyundai etc. than BMW.

That doesn't make the timing chain issue or BMWs response right and acceptable but there are many issues with other cars as well that apparently are reliable and cheap.

Maintenance and care of the vehicle is key. Some folks tune that will certainly put more wear and stress. Unfortunately, issues arise that you then need to care of for all brands and cars, even though it is unfortunate that it happens.

[bavarianride]

My N26 hits 80k miles/8+ yrs when sold last month for 41.5% of brand new OTD.

The used/new car shortage does push up resale by extra 10%+ in last month, but 30%+ for 8+ yrs/80k+ miles N20/N26 says they are reliable enough.

Now maybe I should have kept my N26 till the emission warranty runs out at 15 years/150k miles.

[sspade]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

My N26 hits 80k miles/8+ yrs when sold last month for 41.5% of brand new OTD.

The used/new car shortage does push up resale by extra 10%+ in last month, but 30%+ for 8+ yrs/80k+ miles N20/N26 says they are reliable enough.

Now maybe I should have kept my N26 till the emission warranty runs out at 15 years/150k miles.

Damn, we'll miss ya. Glad you got a sweet deal.

What will you go for next?

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by sspade

Damn, we'll miss ya. Glad you got a sweet deal.

What will you go for next?

Thanks! Yeah I am missing the F30.

To lift my spirit, I bought a G20 330i RWD on a hunch at 14% off MSRP, and it proves to be a pleasant surprise.

[sspade]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Thanks! Yeah I am missing the F30.

To lift my spirit, I bought a G20 330i RWD on a hunch at 14% off MSRP, and it proves to be a pleasant surprise.

Excellent choice, glad to hear you stayed in the family!

[ParaWM]

F32 06/2014 - 95K miles (155K kms). Not a single issue so far (knock knock). 7-9K oil changes and did trans/diff fluid at 70K miles. Will do timing chain soonish preventatively. Stage 2 tuned since 2 years also. Only drinks V-power. She deserves it

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by sspade

Excellent choice, glad to hear you stayed in the family!

G20 is nostalgic of E39 days, it is a great blend of comfort and competence.

[Kev314]

Slick-FTHIRTY

Interesting and sensible comments. However:

"... plastic and other cost reduction pressures are significant from sales/execs... " But plastic does offer some benefits beyond saving a few pennies. I'm thinking mainly of weight. There are probably other trade-offs as well.

It would also be interesting to see how driving characteristics and reliability are correlated. Are cars subjected to high G's more susceptible to problems than those that are conservatively driven? This is a general question not specifically related to BMWs except that BMW drivers may be more prone than average to engage in "enthusiastic" driving.

[schnellwagen]

Originally Posted by Kev314

Slick-FTHIRTY

Interesting and sensible comments. However:

"... plastic and other cost reduction pressures are significant from sales/execs... " But plastic does offer some benefits beyond saving a few pennies. I'm thinking mainly of weight. There are probably other trade-offs as well.

It would also be interesting to see how driving characteristics and reliability are correlated. Are cars subjected to high G's more susceptible to problems than those that are conservatively driven? This is a general question not specifically related to BMWs except that BMW drivers may be more prone than average to engage in "enthusiastic" driving.

I think a main reason behind BMWs use of plastic is 50-50 weight distribution, because they tend to market that a lot with their cars. Otherwise, they'd use more durable materials to compete with other brands.

[Slick_FThirty]

Originally Posted by Kev314

Slick-FTHIRTY

Interesting and sensible comments. However:

"... plastic and other cost reduction pressures are significant from sales/execs... " But plastic does offer some benefits beyond saving a few pennies. I'm thinking mainly of weight. There are probably other trade-offs as well.

It would also be interesting to see how driving characteristics and reliability are correlated. Are cars subjected to high G's more susceptible to problems than those that are conservatively driven? This is a general question not specifically related to BMWs except that BMW drivers may be more prone than average to engage in "enthusiastic" driving.

Absolutely, I would certainly think so. As you mentioned, any car that is driven harder will be subject to more stress and wear, and that is especially true for tuned cars. With the way some people drive their cars, I'm not surprised their cars break.

What is strange to me is that for whatever reason, when people think of Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Lexus, and some other brands, it is as if the laws of the universe, physics, chemistry, and material properties change. It's as if their cars inherently have so much more consideration, precision, and quality put into them. But where is the rationale that this is true?

If you take a look under the hood, other cars have as much, if not more plastic. The build quality, layout, and construction seems to be equal or sometimes less than BMWs, and certainly not better. Take Coolant hoses for example. BMWs are "known" to have cooling system problems where their coolant hoses need to replaced among other components . However, the quality/build/ruberiness of the coolant hose rubber seems to be similar between BMW and others, if not better for BMW and BMWs hoses are certainly thicker after visual confirmation.

Or how about gaskets. Sometimes BMW gaskets become hard and brittle and start leaking fluids at high mileage. But the properties of the material and the conditions that lead to it are identical to other cars. What makes these other brands all of a sudden immune from that? BMW is probably using the best gaskets possible, and they certainly aren't intentionally wanting those gasket leaks to happen and are most certainly trying to prevent it.

Mechanical components can have defects during the manufacturing process, will wear over use, and can experience unordinary events/circumstances that can increase damage or wear. Just because it's Toyota doesn't mean that those considerations no longer apply. Wear and replacement will happen.

Many cars have valve cover gaskets that are plastic, crack over time, and leak.

BMWs are expensive vehicles that have a very elaborate design process and use some of the best materials and manufacturing processes known to humanity. Every day, BMW engineers, manufacturers, and many others who are integral to making the vehicle, go to work and get paid to do the best job possible. BMW is there to create a car with fun dynamics, class and style, and overall good car, which includes longevity and durability. Their design, manufacturing process, materials, and overall path to creating a running vehicle, is top-notch and world class.

As much as I like the Nissan GTR, it is one of the most unreliable cars in the world. Or consider the Mustang. How about the WRX. With higher performance, there's simply more factors at play that can result in increased failure. It isn't because BMW is just crap, is lowsy at the job they've been doing for over a century, or that they are happy with making unreliable cars. Nonsense! Toyota's and other cars are not exempt from the exact same factors. If BMW could create a car without problems, they would have done so already (within budget and reasonable requirements for mass production). But with the quality of components, the precision and accuracy put into these cars, the engineering and manufacturing process, advanced quality control and testing, robots etc., it seems to me that BMW is putting in a lot of effort and are operating at the pinnacle of the latest technology available. It's not like they are hammering together a car in the barn while Toyota is using robots.

Lots of smearing. When something happens to a BMW, it tends to be attributed to the brand and its quality. When other brands have problems, it is more so considered an unfortunate or expectable consequence.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty

Lots of smearing. Also, when a BMW has a problem, people are like "it's a BMW they break a lot and have tons of problems". When a Corolla breaks it's, "oh my Corollas are the most reliable cars ever and Toyota is the best. I guess I was just really unlucky".

My impression is that BMW engine temp usually runs hotter than other makes for efficiency and performance, and heat is the main energy to engine bay plastic.

Having said that, my old F30's I4 runs cooler than old school I6(e.g. E39), and by the time it was sold at 8+ yrs and 80k miles, it has zero repair, i.e., no VCG, no OFHG, no cooling hose issues, etc, etc(the same was not true on previous E39).

I do agree that when Toyota/Honda is driven as hard and run as hot as BMW, those brands will encounter the same reliability issue.

E.g. a friend had a long dispute with Lexus on his RX300 transmission issue that resulted in Lexus paying for parts only.

Naturally that friend got rid of all his Lexus's. His comment was that Lexus transmission was built to be driven like a Lexus but not like BMW.

[Slick_FThirty]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

My impression is that BMW engine temp usually runs hotter than other makes for efficiency and performance, and heat is the main energy to engine bay plastic.

Having said that, my old F30's I4 runs cooler than old school I6(e.g. E39), and by the time it was sold at 8+ yrs and 80k miles, it has zero repair, i.e., no VCG, no OFHG, no cooling hose issues, etc, etc(the same was not true on previous E39).

I do agree that when Toyota/Honda is driven as hard and run as hot as BMW, those brands will encounter the same reliability issue.

E.g. a friend had a long dispute with Lexus on his RX300 transmission issue that resulted in Lexus paying for parts only.

Naturally that friend got rid of all his Lexus's. His comment was that Lexus transmission was built to be driven like a Lexus but not like BMW.

I once test drove an IS250 after realizing the timing chain problems affecting my car. The Lexus had 125k km (double my BMW) and cost $7k more than my original purchase price for my 2013 328i. It was also a 2013. Trading it in probably would have resulting in a $9k or $10k delta.

It was so slow and depressing to drive and the interior was worn (eg leather cracking) and there was rattling while driving etc. I wasn't very impressed with the layout of the interior or how it looked. Felt stuffy. I realized how much more fun and enjoyable my car was. I went to the Lexus dealership with all this hype surrounding lexuses and I was convinced that it would be so much better than my car with its TC problems. With the difference in mileage and cost, I realized I could drive my car much longer and cover all its repair costs twice over (timing chain and all) than buy an over-hyped and over-priced car that is slow, sad, and clunky.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty

I once test drove an IS250 after realizing the timing chain problems affecting my car. The Lexus had 125k km (double my BMW) and cost $7k more than my original purchase price for my 2013 328i. It was also a 2013. Trading it in probably would have resulting in a $9k or $10k delta.

It was so slow and depressing to drive and the interior was worn (eg leather cracking) and there was rattling while driving etc. I wasn't very impressed with the layout of the interior or how it looked. Felt stuffy. I realized how much more fun and enjoyable my car was. I went to the Lexus dealership with all this hype surrounding lexuses and I was convinced that it would be so much better than my car with its TC problems. With the difference in mileage and cost, I realized I could drive my car much longer and cover all its repair costs twice over (timing chain and all) than buy an over-hyped and over-priced car that is slow, sad, and clunky.

The N20/N26 TC issue is real, but it really depends on how hard the TC is stressed cold and hot.

My take is that with proper maintenance + usages(e.g. no towing, no track, no autobahn speed for hrs, 6k-7k OCI with good oil), it is likely factory N20/N26 TC will last 150-200k miles trouble free.

[Slick_FThirty]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

The N20/N26 TC issue is real, but it really depends on how hard the TC is stressed cold and hot.

My take is that with proper maintenance + usages(e.g. no towing, no track, no autobahn speed for hrs, 6k-7k OCI with good oil), it is likely factory N20/N26 TC will last 150-200k miles trouble free.

Ya I would agree. I'm going to have my TC replaced and have been very displeased with how BMW has handled it and their attitude towards it. However, the $3.5k to change it and having a nice/fun car is cheaper and more worthwhile to me personally than the alternative.

[heifetz17]

Originally Posted by bryanbrian

True, one man's opinion based on one car. But in your case, 280k miles on 12 cars works out to only 23k miles per car. If you only put on that kind of mileage on your BMWs, then you should be fine with them. Try going +100k miles and you may have a different opinion. Properly maintaining will help but with specific design flaws like the N20 timing belt and the F30 steering column, you can only pray it does not break down.

You do indeed make a good point. I've had both high mileage and low mileage BMW's, but I always invest in the proper maintenance to get the car up to shape so I know I won't have problems later on.

As far as the timing chain problem I believe it to be largely related to maintenance intervals. For example there are often threads on here asking about 15k mile oil change intervals. Dirty oil will wear out the timing components faster than clean oil. My n26 has 75k on it and I recently had my chain, guides, and tensioner inspected and they're in perfect shape, but my oil change interval never exceeds 5k miles.

I have a buddy with an n20 with close to 120k and his chain and guides are also in good shape, and he also has a 5k mile interval.

[wenlipai]

Originally Posted by heifetz17

You do indeed make a good point. I've had both high mileage and low mileage BMW's, but I always invest in the proper maintenance to get the car up to shape so I know I won't have problems later on.

As far as the timing chain problem I believe it to be largely related to maintenance intervals. For example there are often threads on here asking about 15k mile oil change intervals. Dirty oil will wear out the timing components faster than clean oil. My n26 has 75k on it and I recently had my chain, guides, and tensioner inspected and they're in perfect shape, but my oil change interval never exceeds 5k miles.

I have a buddy with an n20 with close to 120k and his chain and guides are also in good shape, and he also has a 5k mile interval.

I agree, I do oil interval around 4 to 5k as well or 6 months depend which comes first is cheaper changing oil than replacing the timing chain

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by wenlipai

I agree, I do oil interval around 4 to 5k as well or 6 months depend which comes first is cheaper changing oil than replacing the timing chain

My thinking (with no data) is that OCI of 6k-7k with LL01FE 0W30 or LL17FE 0W20 can help the TC.

Many argues that LL01 with 3.5(?) of HTHS can save N20/N26 TC, but few drive at high rpm + high temp(e.g. towing, track, extended autobahn speed).

For those that don't need HTHS 3.5, the 0W can be beneficial esp. for frequent short trips.

[Rockinryan2424]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

My thinking (with no data) is that OCI of 6k-7k with LL01FE 0W30 or LL17FE 0W20 can help the TC.

Many argues that LL01 with 3.5(?) of HTHS can save N20/N26 TC, but few drive at high rpm + high temp(e.g. towing, track, extended autobahn speed).

For those that don't need HTHS 3.5, the 0W can be beneficial esp. for frequent short trips.

Ya this is good thinking but pretty sure it's just luck at this point you get a good one or you get a bad one yes oil helps but some die and others don't just seems like a big gamble

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Rockinryan2424

Ya this is good thinking but pretty sure it's just luck at this point you get a good one or you get a bad one yes oil helps but some die and others don't just seems like a big gamble

Well it surely is possible the N20/N26's will keep falling in coming years.

If that is a concern then one may consider selling now given the inflated prices(in fact that is what I did )