[Sidney90]

Hi all new to this forum!

Just wondering if someone could help me with a question I have with timing chain replacement.

I have 2016 F30 320d for fair few years now and its just ticked over to 98k miles.

Been seeing a lot of posts on IG from a local independent/ BM specialist about timing chain failures and replacements, this got me thinking!

I know the earlier N47 engines are notorious for timing chain failure and causing damages to the engine, leaving the owner to potentially fork out thousands to fix.

For the earlier N47 my local independent/ specialist recommends that the chains and associated equipment is swapped out at 90k or every 9 years. (BMW boldly claim it’s a lifetime part and doesn’t need replacing!)

However my understanding was the N47 was updated around 2015 and the troublesome tensioner was upgraded as apart of the updated. I can’t seem to find an answer when searching on Google and forums if this is the case.

So I’m not sure if I should be looking to get it replaced or just hope for the best and drive it usual (Always have it back of my mind)

The plan is to keep the car for a couple more years.

[danb1979]

Originally Posted by Sidney90

Hi all new to this forum!

Just wondering if someone could help me with a question I have with timing chain replacement.

I have 2016 F30 320d for fair few years now and its just ticked over to 98k miles.

Been seeing a lot of posts on IG from a local independent/ BM specialist about timing chain failures and replacements, this got me thinking!

I know the earlier N47 engines are notorious for timing chain failure and causing damages to the engine, leaving the owner to potentially fork out thousands to fix.

For the earlier N47 my local independent/ specialist recommends that the chains and associated equipment is swapped out at 90k or every 9 years. (BMW boldly claim it’s a lifetime part and doesn’t need replacing!)

However my understanding was the N47 was updated around 2015 and the troublesome tensioner was upgraded as apart of the updated. I can’t seem to answer when searching on Google and forums if this is the case.

So I’m not sure if I should be looking to get it replaced or just hope for the best and drive it usual (Always have it back of my mind)

The plan is to keep the car for a couple more years.

Yup; N47T IIRC was the updated engine with the lesser problems

Like you (albeit the 325D) I'm at similar mileage; the train of thought is either leave it and see how it goes (not all engines fail; there are a lot out there with high mileage still on their original chains, with having very regular servicing done etc), or get the chain replaced as preventative maintenance etc

My other thought process is that these places will bleat on how they're all ticking time bombs; as that's good business for them, and all you hear/read about is the negative side of it. Never the positive!

My pal Chris and his Dad have had 320Ds between them for quite a few years now; serviced/oil changes every 6 months and one on 217k miles (dead due to the diff blowing unfortunately), the other just over 170k miles and both on their original chains!

They do a LOT of miles between them, never any issues bar tyres/brakes and the odd exhaust dropping off etc

Their N57 330D is about to hit 190k miles; these aren't as prone to snapped chains, but prone to stretched chains. Still runs perfectly well and pulls like a train (remapped with EGR/DPF removed).

For now, my F31 runs super smoothly; it's as quiet as it gets for an N47 so I'm leaving it for now; ZF box service booked in for the end of this month and I'll consider getting the chain/tensioner/guides done sometime in the 2nd quarter I think

[Allworth]

I am on original chain 2.0 N47 2011 with 122k miles.
Convinced enough not to bother with chain replacement by having annually good quality oil change, and no mods installed.
I've seen plenty of posts where people reported over 200k miles on original chain, and that is on non updated N47.

[danb1979]

Originally Posted by Allworth

I am on original chain 2.0 N47 2011 with 122k miles.
Convinced enough not to bother with chain replacement by having annually good quality oil change, and no mods installed.
I've seen plenty of posts where people reported over 200k miles on original chain, and that is on non updated N47.

It's a shame that it's all you ever hear re the N47/3 or 520D etc (and the 1 series)

Oohh, bought an N47; it's gonna blow up...

It's just pure negative blurb and it ruins what are good cars at the end of the day

[bishbosh]

From my understanding if a chain is going to snap it'll be the top one. Bmw has a procedure to change the top chain with only having to remove the valve cover, i.e. it's a much less invasive job.

However as above regular oil changes will help extend the service life of the engine. If the chain isn't making odd noises then personally I'd not worry about it.

[Sidney90]

Thanks for the quick reply guys!

Sounds like a scare monger tactic by the specialist! I will up the oil changes to every 6 months and keep eye out for any weird sounds and see how I get on.

I agree with you it’s always the negative never the postive with theese engines i.e how smooth and efficient the engine is etc.

You mentioned an ZF gearbox service, I thought theese don’t really need servicing. Have you been having issues or just doing it for piece of mind?

[danb1979]

Originally Posted by Sidney90

Thanks for the quick reply guys!

Sounds like a scare monger tactic by the specialist! I will up the oil changes to every 6 months and keep eye out for any weird sounds and see how I get on.

I agree with you it’s always the negative never the postive with theese engines i.e how smooth and efficient the engine is etc.

You mentioned an ZF gearbox service, I thought theese don’t really need servicing. Have you been having issues or just doing it for piece of mind?

ZF recommend 60-80k miles for the service of the ZF autoboxes (filter and fluid)

BMW state sealed for life; which to them is 100k miles!

Personally I'd always go with ZF; so I'll be getting mine serviced towards end of this month & then looking to add rhe XHP tune to the box as well... That'll be the finishing touch

Re oil changes; I do mine every 6months - Mann filter and which ever 5W30 or 5W40 oil I choose to go for (Liqui Moly, Millers, TripleQX etc)

I do mine using a Pela pump as it makes life easier and gets out 5l with ease (capacity is 5.2l)!





Takes 20-30mins and no crawling around under the car

[TurboWeasel]

I've owned German cars since 1990 and over those past 34 years, all I ever heard was chains this, chains that, engine armageddon if you don't change them blah blah.

It's bull turd.

The only chains that are more likely to let go are in neglected engines. Period.

Humanity thrives on drama, so the handful of cases grow into an epidemic, and its largely from brand haters who've never owned said car just to bolster their confirmation bias and spread misinformation.

How many 100s of 1000s of B47 engines are out there? If it was a hard as stone fact that they WILL let go, don't you think there would be 10s, if not 100s of 320ds parked outside dealers awaiting a repair? And where was the recall?

The only fact is chains, rails and tensioners are subject to ageing and wear. They do not have a finite life span.

And for the sake of semantics, chains don't 'stretch'. The rollers and sprockets wear out. If you were to put a new chain next to a 'stretched' one, the difference is a handful of mm, if that. It's sum of multiple worn out rollers (and sprocket teeth) that causes timing drift...and eventually the tensioner runs out of travel to take up the slack, and then things get bad if left like that for too long because the chain flaps about banging on the guide rails, which will crack them.

As above, oil changes are the key to a longer life. They are not a guarantee of infinite lifespan, but they could buy you another 50,75, 100K lifespan.

At the end of the day, soot saturated oil is abrasive to the chain rollers and sprockets.....so the longer its left in the sump, the more damage it causes.

[Sidney90]

Originally Posted by danb1979

ZF recommend 60-80k miles for the service of the ZF autoboxes (filter and fluid)

BMW state sealed for life; which to them is 100k miles!

Personally I'd always go with ZF; so I'll be getting mine serviced towards end of this month & then looking to add rhe XHP tune to the box as well... That'll be the finishing touch

Re oil changes; I do mine every 6months - Mann filter and which ever 5W30 or 5W40 oil I choose to go for (Liqui Moly, Millers, TripleQX etc)

I do mine using a Pela pump as it makes life easier and gets out 5l with ease (capacity is 5.2l)!

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/5N6FHTXj/work6.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/rspRNYgn/work5.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/1tsqfzFZ/work4.jpg[/img]

Takes 20-30mins and no crawling around under the car

I better get my ZF serviced then! Any independent you know of in Greater Manchester area by any chance?


Nice tip about the oil changes! I think I’m going to have to invest in pela pump.

[danb1979]

Originally Posted by Sidney90

I better get my ZF serviced then! Any independent you know of in Greater Manchester area by any chance?


Nice tip about the oil changes! I think I’m going to have to invest in pela pump.

I'm in Preston and have only ever used Grant and his lads at Automatic Transmissions, Preston on Emmanuel Street:

https://automaticgearboxrepairs.com/
https://www.facebook.com/AutomaticTr.../?locale=en_GB

Grant did all my E39s and my E65 (never got round to getting my F01 done there); wouldn't use anyone else... My F31 will be going there end of this month, if not early Feb hopefully

But; ADC in Stockport/Ashton under Lyne are also well respected/well thought of:

https://www.adcbmw.uk/
https://www.facebook.com/AdcBmw?locale=en_GB

And yes, the Pela pump makes life so much easier

It's this one I have/use:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/FreeTec-Man...e%2C169&sr=1-2

And you just need one of these to put the waste oil in:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DKN-LEISURE...e%2C132&sr=1-7

And the oil of your choice and a filter; I tend to use Mann or Hengst; both OEM:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B005NFXK...v_ov_lig_dp_it

You'll need this for the oil filter housing:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-Expe...33&sr=1-1&th=1

[Jon TDI]

As mentioned above, frequent oil changes are the key to smooth running.
I’m planning to refresh the oil more regularly than the recommended service intervals, just for peace of mind.

The only car I’ve had a potential timing chain issue was a SAAB 93 Turbo X, which was basically a Vauxhall Insignia VXR (2.8 V6 Turbo). Only bought it down to the rarity.
18 months into to ownership there were sporadic engine warning lights on the dash, plugged in an OBD scanner & codes were engine timing related. I replaced camshaft & crankshaft sensors but these didn’t rectify the issue. Local Ex-SAAB dealers diagnosed as timing chain, but couldn’t be absolutely sure until they looked at it, and if it was the chain, it would be around £3k to fix.

[danb1979]

One thing re oil changes, that IMO, puts it all into perspective

LL04 5W30 / 5W40 oil and a Mann filter, for example; costs less than one full tank of fuel / premium fuel; more so for the N47s that only need 5.2l (well, 5L realistically)

Worth bearing in mind!

[Stainy]

Originally Posted by danb1979

LL04 5W30 / 5W40 oil and a Mann filter, for example; costs less than one full tank of fuel / premium fuel

The next question you might be asking yourself is do you need LongLife(04) oil if your changes are so often? - it's specified because of the stupidly long 'standard' changes (mainly for the fleet buyers). Most of the 'benefits' are to prevent sludge/deposit buildup and evaporation - because the oil is expected to live in there so long.

Food for thought

[danb1979]

Originally Posted by Stainy

The next question you might be asking yourself is do you need LongLife(04) oil if your changes are so often? - it's specified because of the stupidly long 'standard' changes (mainly for the fleet buyers). Most of the 'benefits' are to prevent sludge/deposit buildup and evaporation - because the oil is expected to live in there so long.

Food for thought

Very true; but the oil I tend to use is always LL04 anyways so easier to stick with it...

More so whilst still under warranty 'in case anything happens' etc

So many oils are LL04 anyway; just makes it easier to stick to it

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by Stainy

The next question you might be asking yourself is do you need LongLife(04) oil if your changes are so often? - it's specified because of the stupidly long 'standard' changes (mainly for the fleet buyers). Most of the 'benefits' are to prevent sludge/deposit buildup and evaporation - because the oil is expected to live in there so long.

Food for thought

Part of the problem with not using the recommended oil isn't it's degredation but whether it has additives that don't clog up DPFs and EGRs etc. How likely this is to actually cause an issue I don't know for sure, but I do know that the additives are chosen based on the manufacturer's testing/ideal etc to prevent issues (as well as the sludge reduction you mention). Of course fresh oil should be a lot less contaminating than old if it is burning in the combustion chamber, but it's something worth considering. Given the difference in cost between an 'in spec' oil and a boggo 5W30 etc without the spec isn't massive I'd just use the spec stuff, but that's me.

[TurboWeasel]

Yeah its only the dealer Shell Helix stuff that is massively expensive for what it is. Most aftermarket LL04 is so cheap it's not worth deviating from.

Mannol seems like a cost effective brand. Their 0W40 Ester LL04 is peanuts at £27. Hadn't heard of them until recently but they seem like a reputable German brand like Fuchs.

The only thing I'd be concerned about when deviating from LL04 is ash build up in the DPF. That and the complex metallurgy or metals rubbing on each other are why BMW specify a particular blend. I remember back in the early 2000s when folk cheaped out on oil in their Golf PD TDIs, and lost cam lobes as a result.

[danb1979]

Originally Posted by TurboWeasel

Yeah its only the dealer Shell Helix stuff that is massively expensive for what it is. Most aftermarket LL04 is so cheap it's not worth deviating from.

Mannol seems like a cost effective brand. Their 0W40 Ester LL04 is peanuts at £27. Hadn't heard of them until recently but they seem like a reputable German brand like Fuchs.

The only thing I'd be concerned about when deviating from LL04 is ash build up in the DPF. That and the complex metallurgy or metals rubbing on each other are why BMW specify a particular blend. I remember back in the early 2000s when folk cheaped out on oil in their Golf PD TDIs, and lost cam lobes as a result.

Yup; TripleQX/Mannol/Millers/Liqui Moly/Shell/Fuchs etc

They all meet the LL04 specs; they range from dirt cheap to expensive - used them all, never had any issues etc

As said; just makes it easier to stick to LL04 oils; there's so many to chose from, the question would be why to avoid using LL04 IMO

[MyBimma]

Hi Everyone,

Just wanted some advice/ suggestions with regards to the issues I’m facing. My bmw F30 330d x drive has suddenly developed a loud timing chain noise…
(something like a rollercoaster ride being pulled up). I’ve had the car services 50% of the time within the network and other times outside the network all at dealer recommend intervals. Insured Warrenty have refused due to pre existing…

Upon the dealership inspection and stripping the engine - they’ve come up with the following “diagnostics”

• Visible float/movement on the cam shaft

• Crank shaft has float/movement which is outside of tolerance

• Also play in the time chain

• There is a significant difference in the oil condition from the top of the engine to the bottom (bottom is ok but the top is sludge)

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

[Allworth]

What's the car mileage?
Has any fuel / oil additives been used?

[Stainy]

Jesus, that looks horrific. If ever there was a reason to ignore the stupidly long oil change intervals, it's right there. Mine gets a change (and a flush!) every 5k miles thank god

[MyBimma]

@allworth Milage is 90k
No additives been used

The thing that I can’t digest is that I’ve tried to follow the correct protocols regarding oil changes. I guess it should be done sooner than manufacturers recommendation!

[TurboWeasel]

Yikes

That is horrific sludging, even for 90K. Definitely not what you want to see under your cam cover.

Sounds like the crank thrust bearing is shot as well if they are reporting excessive end float. The cam bearings don't sound too clever either.

Not sure what is going on there tbh as even with BMW's ridiculous 18K/2 year oil intervals, that sludge is excessive.

Without doing a full analysis, it would appear the bearing surfaces have worn out from a lack of lubricity from old oil.