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      05-21-2015, 08:39 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
Really: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...-bimmer-page-4
As I said, you'd have to be on a racetrack, and even then if it were a tight course the xDrive might win. Remember, the 335d, even lacking HP (but with torque) basically tied a 335i around a race course. It's not the power, but how it's applied, and all three are within whiskers of each other.

Besides, a better driver in a 335i xDrive is likely to beat a ham-fisted guy in a 335i. There's always a faster car/driver combination out there.

Here we go again & again. It's not about race track performance, it's about driving dynamics, feel. My X-Drive was floaty and not confidence inspiring until after Dinan shockware, springs & bump stops. With a manual transmission, the nose would bounce up and down between gears (see Motor Trend article below) not very BMW, and at high speeds the steering was not good.

If you like or love your car, that's great, old time owners are less than thrilled with the current F30, at least my 2013. This is my 1st and last x-drive. From what I've read here, the newer RWD cars don't have these problems. I am holding out hope the 340 will address this, at least with packages from the factory. The fact that BMW just released the 435 ZHP tells me they have been listening and are offering factory options for their old school clients, we'll see.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...port_update_7/

Last edited by P-Bass; 05-21-2015 at 09:01 AM..
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      05-21-2015, 09:04 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliCO View Post
In my view, an xDrive BMW with DHP is about 80% as "sporty" - nebulous term, I realize - as the equivalent RWD car with the M-Sport suspension...
I would put it in the 90%-95% range; closer to 95. The fact of the matter is that only on a racetrack can you explore that difference; daily driving it's simply not noticeable.
Oh, it absolutely is noticeable. I think mostly so in non-demanding situations like parking lots when nothing is telling the DHP system to tighten up. My F10 see-saws unacceptably front to back in those conditions. It's "bouncy nose," just like PSA955 says. I believe this is evidence of a shortcoming of the DHP technology, something it's not properly programmed to stop from happening.

On the other hand, if I have to swerve at highway speed to avoid something in the road, the system does firm up well and quickly.

I'm aware that difference in behavior might be designed in on purpose. But I don't like a car to feel fat and heavy at any time.
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      05-21-2015, 09:06 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by itrocks4u View Post
Why did you end up changing? I see you had 545i before?
A moment of impulse, nothing more. I test drove an F10 one day, fell a bit in love with the interior and electronics, and it was a last remaining 2013 on the floor optioned more or less the way I would have built it. Next thing I knew it was in my driveway.

My 545 had 82,000 miles on it and nothing wrong with it. I should have kept it 2 more years.
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      05-21-2015, 09:20 AM   #26
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The problem with DHP or I should say BMW in general is that they would not let you permanently set the settings (unless you get a M car).

Comon, who drives in two different steering settings? Let me set it either comfort or sports and let me keep it there forever. I dont want to hit a button everytime I get into the car. Also the damping, fuk let me stay at firm/sport until I want to go soft (hit that dumb button)
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      05-21-2015, 09:39 AM   #27
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Another option is to get a RWD with LSD and snow tires. While they do a reasonable job of clearing the roads here in Denver, I have been on some roads which have several inches of snow on them and have not had any issues. With my experience so for I don't expect to have any issues getting around unless the snow gets deep enough to make my car into a snow plow, but then having an AWD wouldn't be much help either.
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      05-21-2015, 09:48 AM   #28
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I currently own both a 2009 128i and a new 428i GC X-Drive with Adaptive M and summer performance tires. I just had the 128i at an Audi DE at Pocono and have tracked many different cars over the years. I plan on tracking the 428i one day just for fun.
I am going to say that the RWD vs AWD is not a significant factor on the street. TBD on a track. (Why would you want to drive the car at 9-10/10ths on the street )

I am loving the suspension of the 428i more than anything else. The 128i "bounces" around, whether on RFT tires or not. It needs a suspension mod. The 428 has a super composed yet capable and firm suspension in normal spirited driving. Having said that, I would go with a RWD car if I did not have to deal with inclement winter weather. And yes- I put winter tires on both my RWD and AWD cars.
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      05-21-2015, 10:22 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSA955 View Post
... It's not about race track performance, it's about driving dynamics, feel. ...

If you like or love your car, that's great, old time owners are less than thrilled with the current F30, at least my 2013....
"Feel" is subjective, rather than objective (which is what I am arguing.) I'm not you, and won't argue subjective terms.

And, BTW, I've driven BMWs for 37 years, including 2 xDrive cars; pretty sure my knowledge of driving dynamics (both regarding BMWs and other cars) is at least as sophisticated as yours. I like my wife's F30 328xd; as I said before it's better in almost every way than our E34 525i (of course it's 25 years newer tech, too. )
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      05-21-2015, 10:29 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COKen View Post
Another option is to get a RWD with LSD and snow tires. While they do a reasonable job of clearing the roads here in Denver, I have been on some roads which have several inches of snow on them and have not had any issues. With my experience so for I don't expect to have any issues getting around unless the snow gets deep enough to make my car into a snow plow, but then having an AWD wouldn't be much help either.
I agree with you 95%. My last BMW was a RWD 545; I had snow tires for the winter and I got around fine in and around Denver. We always took something else up the hill in the winter, though that was more about cargo space for skis and gear than anything else.

I live in Castle Pines, where there are enough hills that I occasionally had a little trouble after a fresh snow in that 545. The only times I've preferred my xDrive F10 have been the times I got surprised by a significant amount of snow and had no choice but to get around in it using that car. But that's been, like, twice in 18 months. I'd usually take out my 2004 Explorer on any day like that.
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      05-21-2015, 10:33 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliCO View Post
...I'm aware that difference in behavior might be designed in on purpose. But I don't like a car to feel fat and heavy at any time.
The difference in weight (between a 328i and 328xi) is 185 pounds. That's like having someone in the passenger seat.
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      05-21-2015, 10:45 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
The difference in weight (between a 328i and 328xi) is 185 pounds. That's like having someone in the passenger seat.
Even less, 145 lbs actually.
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      05-21-2015, 10:45 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
The difference in weight (between a 328i and 328xi) is 185 pounds. That's like having someone in the passenger seat.
That's not wrong, though I'm not talking about weight at all. All of the cars in the F10's class are heavy; even the "featherweight" CTS weighs at least as much as an E60 did. It seems as if the other cars, especially the A6 which is even heavier than the F10, have done a better job of masking the weight increase. Also, and of particular note here, is that Audi doesn't make you give up suspension choices in order to have AWD.

I think it comes down to damping behavior, and especially the fact that the F10 xDrive DHP is very softly sprung. Some of the time the DHP in Sport mode corrects against that softness, but other times it doesn't. Given that, and since DHP cost me $3500, I would rather have had the 704 suspension on my xDrive car and saved the money. Having a Comfort mode is of no value to me.

(If $3500 sounds like a lot...it's $4500 on an X5)
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      05-21-2015, 10:53 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COKen View Post
Another option is to get a RWD with LSD and snow tires. While they do a reasonable job of clearing the roads here in Denver, I have been on some roads which have several inches of snow on them and have not had any issues. With my experience so for I don't expect to have any issues getting around unless the snow gets deep enough to make my car into a snow plow, but then having an AWD wouldn't be much help either.
+1. The issue is becoming "high centered" in the snow. I wish someone had some quantitative data on: What depth of snow would high center a RWD car vs. AWD car?

Ultimately, if we're dealing with deep snow, the best set up for that is probably a heavy suv with 4WD and snow tires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliCO View Post
That's not wrong, though I'm not talking about weight at all. All of the cars in the F10's class are heavy; even the "featherweight" CTS weighs at least as much as an E60 did. It seems as if the other cars, especially the A6 which is even heavier than the F10, have done a better job of masking the weight increase. Also, and of particular note here, is that Audi doesn't make you give up suspension choices in order to have AWD.

I think it comes down to damping behavior, and especially the fact that the F10 xDrive DHP is very softly sprung. Some of the time the DHP in Sport mode corrects against that softness, but other times it doesn't. Given that, and since DHP cost me $3500, I would rather have had the 704 suspension on my xDrive car and saved the money. Having a Comfort mode is of no value to me.

(If $3500 sounds like a lot...it's $4500 on an X5)
DHP sounds like it's pretty good, but at the end of the day it can't make up for the fact that there's not enough spring.
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      05-21-2015, 11:04 AM   #35
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Going from X-Drive to RWD is a big switch. I live in the Southeast, and only liked AWD for the superior traction in rain and the ability to launch off of the line very quickly.

Now that I have my 335 which is rear-wheel drive, it'll be hard for anyone to convince me to buy another X-Drive BMW.

Unless you need AWD for snow, don't do it.
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      05-21-2015, 11:34 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
"Feel" is subjective, rather than objective (which is what I am arguing.) I'm not you, and won't argue subjective terms.

And, BTW, I've driven BMWs for 37 years, including 2 xDrive cars; pretty sure my knowledge of driving dynamics (both regarding BMWs and other cars) is at least as sophisticated as yours. I like my wife's F30 328xd; as I said before it's better in almost every way than our E34 525i (of course it's 25 years newer tech, too. )
Correct, feel is subjective and I respectfully disagree with you. 37 years is a long time and you obviously have logged enough miles to form your opinion. I'm 52 and still drive my cars hard, I get on it almost every time I start it up. This one needed help, Dinan was the cure. The car is now engaging and confident. I don't drive like an idiot around town, in neighborhoods etc. I take advantage of on/off ramps, clear stretches of pavement any chance to have a little fun. I was driving back from Connecticut to Long Island yesterday on the Merritt Parkway, great long sweepers, the car was fantastic. Although I still would like more "feel" from the steering & tires. I miss the old "rough" ride of my 2011 E90. As I said, to each his own. And as you said, "feel" is subjective. I want mine tight and aggressive, guess i need an M3!
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      05-21-2015, 11:53 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
DHP sounds like it's pretty good, but at the end of the day it can't make up for the fact that there's not enough spring.
DHP is brilliant. Many, many people want a car that is nice and comfortable except for every here and there when they want to give it a little zig. That's a huge market and DHP gives them their car. It's not, in my opinion, a good proxy for a sport-tuned suspension if having that is your main goal.
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      05-21-2015, 12:31 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
... The issue is becoming "high centered" in the snow. I wish someone had some quantitative data on: What depth of snow would high center a RWD car vs. AWD car?
I high-centered my E46 330xi (twice, actually; 2nd time stopped before spinning tires dropped too far and was able to easily dig out). IME new snow isn't as much a problem as old snow that is melting and the car's weight causes ruts to form, or the surface to soften and drops you down. Our predilection of running narrow tires in the winter actually is a detriment in those conditions.

Thing to remember: 4WD just gets you stuck further into the woods/down the road. The 1" that xDrive cars have over RWD is rather insignificant in many cases.
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      05-21-2015, 01:13 PM   #39
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Why does it always goes off topic and becomes RWD vs AWD?

OP ask about the DHP for rwd and 4wd
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      02-12-2021, 09:06 AM   #40
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I have F32 428i RWD and E92 325Xi xDrive (of my wife), and i am loving that car. Never again RWD, only xDrive.

I would like to convert my rwd to XD only if i could.
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      01-11-2023, 03:17 AM   #41
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my first bimmer was a 04 325i rwd, loved it. my second was a 2011 328xi, loved it but told myself the next one is going to be rwd.. well i ended up with a 2018 330xi, and i love it. i really love how the car will shift power to according axel to help push through turns at high rates of speed. I could say my next one is for sures going to be rwd but chances are it'll be another xdrive. i enjoy the grip on launches as well dont have to worry if shes going to spin. i raced a jaguar xf, i some what knew what i was getting into just praying he didnt have the supercharged version and well i had my window cracked and when the light turned green i got him off the jump like a car and a half in front but just heard the whine from the supercharger as he chased me down as if i was a toddler running away with something in my mouth. moral of the story, "in my paul walkers voice" i almost had him. my four bangin 330xi complety stock gave the impression of a possibility of beating a supercharged xj. certainly got my hopes up lol. As this is my opinion and first hand experience, i would 100% recommend xdrive over rwd and i'm open to any opinions/facts about rwd being better than xdrive
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      04-28-2023, 07:42 AM   #42
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Lot of people here conflating RWD/Xdrive with SE/Msport suspension.

I used to have rwd mercedes and I was really sick of the lack of traction in various situations. I now have xdrive+adaptive suspension, best of both.
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