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      02-14-2020, 08:16 PM   #1
Freestylerfalcon
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Turbo lag with a big intercooler? (Bm3 stage2)

Hi friends.

I've been on the brink of going FBO and bm3 stage 2 for the longest time and have decided to finally pull the trigger.

Car is 2014 f30 335i. All stock except a CST intake and bm3 stage 1.

Im going to get charge pipe, catted DP (active autowerke or wagner) and an intercooler.

My question is what size intercooler should i be looking at? My car is a daily that does alot of highway kms. I dont drive like a maniac 90% of the time.

Mike from x-ph recommends a 6" cooler such as the CSF and says lag wont be an issue. (Thanks for answering all my incessant questions mike!)

But ive also read detailed intercooler reviews that talk about increased turbo lag and sluggish throttle response with a massive intercooler. Considering im not always pushing the car to the limits i was thinking a smaller 5.5" cooler like the Active Autowerke one would be better suited?


Any feedback would be appreciated thanks!
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      02-14-2020, 08:39 PM   #2
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I would say 5 or 6. I went with VRSF 5" HD. Some will say go 6. I daily my car and don't pull all the time and didn't wanna drop 600+ on intercooler. I am happy with my $350 VRSF
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      02-15-2020, 05:58 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freestylerfalcon View Post
Hi friends.

I've been on the brink of going FBO and bm3 stage 2 for the longest time and have decided to finally pull the trigger.

Car is 2014 f30 335i. All stock except a CST intake and bm3 stage 1.

Im going to get charge pipe, catted DP (active autowerke or wagner) and an intercooler.

My question is what size intercooler should i be looking at? My car is a daily that does alot of highway kms. I dont drive like a maniac 90% of the time.

Mike from x-ph recommends a 6" cooler such as the CSF and says lag wont be an issue. (Thanks for answering all my incessant questions mike!)

But ive also read detailed intercooler reviews that talk about increased turbo lag and sluggish throttle response with a massive intercooler. Considering im not always pushing the car to the limits i was thinking a smaller 5.5" cooler like the Active Autowerke one would be better suited?


Any feedback would be appreciated thanks!
I have a '15 335ix running BootMod3 Stage2 N55 EWG 93 Octane. I have an acute hatred for turbo lag from past experiences. I worked with Mike at X-PH to figure out the best solution with the least amount of turbo lag.

The stock intercooler is actually very efficient. It's an expensive lightweight tube & fin design that has very little turbo lag because it has quick flow across the cooler which prevents the intake pressure drop that causes turbo lag.

The stock intercooler was sized by BMW for the engine's stock horsepower output. So the stock intercooler doesn't have the capacity to handle the cooling requirements when the engine horsepower increases. That causes heat soak which is when the engine's failsafe systems cut power to prevent damage when intake air temperature is too high.

So a higher capacity intercooler is required when engine power is increased.

95% of aftermarket intercoolers are not tube and fin designs like the stock BMW intercooler. They are big heavy bar & plate designs which are cheaper to manufacture. This makes sense because most guys who were modifying their engines were racing. For racing you just need a big cheap intercooler to cool a lot of air. You don't care about turbo lag because the engine is being run lap after lap at high revs on a track.

Turbo lag is most noticeable in daily driving from a standing start when a light turns green, or when you go to accelerate to pass someone or when you hit a nice curve or on-ramp and want to accelerate into it.

A racing designed bar & plate intercooler is more likely to increase turbo lag under these daily driving situations because the air flow is slower across the bar & plate intercooler. This causes more intake air pressure drop which causes turbo lag.

So the perfect intercooler upgrade for a higher horsepower daily driver would be the same tube & fin design as the BMW stock intercooler, only larger with a higher capacity to cool more air.

Wagner Tuning from Germany makes two tube & fin design intercoolers in what they call their Competition series: the large Competition EVO1 and the larger Competition EVO2.

(NOT the Wagner Performance Series EVO1 and Performance EVO2 which are cheaper, heavier and slower bar & plate designs.)

Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better. I was going to buy the Competition EVO2 because it's only $50 more. Mike actually talked me out of it. I was planning to tune my car in the 400hp-425hp range with BM3 Stage2 93 octane. The Competition EVO1 was perfectly sized for that range.

Had I installed the Competition EVO2 then I may have introduced more turbo lag in daily driving. Had I told Mike that I intended to upgrade my turbo and weekend track my car, then he would have recommended the Wagner Competition EVO2 which would have been the correct capacity intercooler for that higher horsepower application.

I've been running the Wagner Competition EVO1 for 18 months and it's been incredible. I didn't notice that I had had some heat soak after multiple runs until it was suddenly gone. I can make run after run at full power. In daily driving there is no added turbo lag. That sweet torque curve is always available every time that I step on the gas.

Now the Wagner Competition EVO1 is $250 list price more than the FMIC that you are considering. But they are not apples to apples comparisons. The Wagner Competition EVO1 is a technology upgrade over the others.

Check out the graphs Mike has on his X-PH website showing the intake pressure drops that cause turbo lag and how great the Wagner Competition is.

Hope this helps!
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      02-15-2020, 09:42 AM   #4
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How about this monster? Evo 3 Comp tube & fin.

https://www.wagner-tuning.com/produc...200001144.html

I’m still trying to find a tuned F20/21/22/87 guy that’s tried this over the Evo 2 Comp to hear about cooling performance and potential added lag.
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      02-15-2020, 10:28 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
How about this monster? Evo 3 Comp tube & fin.

https://www.wagner-tuning.com/produc...200001144.html

I'm still trying to find a tuned F20/21/22/87 guy that's tried this over the Evo 2 Comp to hear about cooling performance and potential added lag.
Wow, that is massive! Seems like it would be more useful with an N54 engine which can generate more power, more easily than the N55 engine.

Below is a quick comparison by volume in cubic centimeters.

7.3 Stock FMIC
11.8 Wagner Competition EVO1
13.8 Wagner Competition EVO2
23.6 Wagner Competition EVO3

EVO3 is definitely a racing animal!
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      02-15-2020, 10:45 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
Wow, that is massive! Seems like it would be more useful with an N54 engine which can generate more power, more easily than the N55 engine.

Below is a quick comparison by volume in cubic centimeters.

7.3 Stock FMIC
11.8 Wagner Competition EVO1
13.8 Wagner Competition EVO2
23.6 Wagner Competition EVO3

EVO3 is definitely a racing animal!
Yeah, I definitely want this thing for summertime track sessions, but I don’t know what it’ll do to around town stop & go throttle response.
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      02-15-2020, 11:50 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
Wow, that is massive! Seems like it would be more useful with an N54 engine which can generate more power, more easily than the N55 engine.

Below is a quick comparison by volume in cubic centimeters.

7.3 Stock FMIC
11.8 Wagner Competition EVO1
13.8 Wagner Competition EVO2
23.6 Wagner Competition EVO3

EVO3 is definitely a racing animal!
Yeah, I definitely want this thing for summertime track sessions, but I don’t know what it’ll do to around town stop & go throttle response.
Ask Mike at X-PH
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      02-15-2020, 12:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
Ask Mike at X-PH
Mike pointed to the curves showing less pressure drop than Evo 2 Comp.

But those curves are always constant velocity data points throughout the flow range, not instantaneous response when on/off throttle that is also impacted by other variables like tune and bolt ons.

So, curious to hear real world feedback from someone.

Also curious to get more info on the brace mod. Says it’s not road legal in CA, but not sure about other states, and if it changes crash safety aspects.

I emailed Wagner for input, we’ll see if we get some.

Last edited by ZM2; 02-15-2020 at 02:25 PM..
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      02-15-2020, 01:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
Ask Mike at X-PH
Mike pointed to the curves showing less pressure drop than Evo 2 Comp.

But those curves are always constantly velocity data points throughout the flow range, not instantaneous response when on/off throttle that is also impacted by other variables like tune and bolt ons.

So, curious to hear real world feedback from someone.

Also curious to get more info on the brace mod. Says it's not road legal in CA, but not sure about other states, and if it changes crash safety aspects.

I emailed Wagner for input, we'll see if we get some.
I wonder what the N55 horsepower would have to be to over run a Wagner Competition EVO2 in a race on a hot day. It's interesting that Wagner also abandoned the stock sized input & output ports for larger in the EVO3.

Wonder how reliable those extra sleeves/connections will be? Also wonder how much of a role the larger connection pipes play in maintaining the intake pressure? Wonder if Wagner came up with any new features such as flow dynamics inside the unit/end tanks? I say that because it's been years since they designed the Competition EVO1/EVO2. Did Wagner just copy the previous products, but make it bigger with the EVO3, or are there refinements? Just wondering out loud.

Please post if you get new information.
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      02-15-2020, 01:21 PM   #10
ZM2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
I wonder what the N55 horsepower would have to be to over run a Wagner Competition EVO2 in a race on a hot day. It's interesting that Wagner also abandoned the stock sized input & output ports for larger in the EVO3.

Wonder how reliable those extra sleeves/connections will be? Also wonder how much of a role the larger connection pipes play in maintaining the intake pressure? Wonder if Wagner came up with any new features such as flow dynamics inside the unit/end tanks? I say that because it's been years since they designed the Competition EVO1/EVO2. Did Wagner just copy the previous products, but make it bigger with the EVO3, or are there refinements? Just wondering out loud.

Please post if you get new information.
All good questions.

I already see ambient and IAT deltas of 60F on hot track days with the Evo 2 comp. That’s 150F+ IAT’s on 90-100F ambient days, and is the main reason I run E30 at the track—the timing & power pull is way less with E30 than 93 and keeps power levels up, and in my logs E30 also does a little better than 100 octane in this respect.

To compare, I saw the same max ambient & IAT deltas when I was running the full Dinan Stage 4 package and FMIC. Altho, when I switched to the Wagner Evo 2, around town IAT was lower and it cools off much quicker between corners at the track.

I’ll add some logs below:

Stage 2 5.7 Race Gas with 100 octane
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d39e50bc090c65ddbf480c0

Stage 2H 5.7 E30 with E32
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d7a550dae729b06e29120ea

Stage 2 5.8 E30 with E34
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d7a93fcc090c677bd36877e

And for those really interested, my whole IAT, oil, coolant temp saga is here: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1525790

Doing something like adding a larger turbo to get similar/more power at lower boost levels, and upgrading the HPFP to run E40-50 is all I can think of to get these temps in check without turning the thing into a race car.

Hence, my interest in real world performance of the Evo 3 comp.

Last edited by ZM2; 02-15-2020 at 01:39 PM..
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      02-15-2020, 02:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freestylerfalcon View Post
Hi friends.

I've been on the brink of going FBO and bm3 stage 2 for the longest time and have decided to finally pull the trigger.

Car is 2014 f30 335i. All stock except a CST intake and bm3 stage 1.

Im going to get charge pipe, catted DP (active autowerke or wagner) and an intercooler.

My question is what size intercooler should i be looking at? My car is a daily that does alot of highway kms. I dont drive like a maniac 90% of the time.

Mike from x-ph recommends a 6" cooler such as the CSF and says lag wont be an issue. (Thanks for answering all my incessant questions mike!)

But ive also read detailed intercooler reviews that talk about increased turbo lag and sluggish throttle response with a massive intercooler. Considering im not always pushing the car to the limits i was thinking a smaller 5.5" cooler like the Active Autowerke one would be better suited?


Any feedback would be appreciated thanks!
My pleasure!

The best intercooler in every case is the intercooler that provides the best balance between keeping temps down, pressure air drop, temp recovery and weight.

a bigger intercooler might have a slightly higher pressure air drop (the better the intercooler design the smaller the difference is going to be), but it will provide much better cooling allowing the car to make more HP
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      02-15-2020, 02:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
I wonder what the N55 horsepower would have to be to over run a Wagner Competition EVO2 in a race on a hot day. It's interesting that Wagner also abandoned the stock sized input & output ports for larger in the EVO3.

Wonder how reliable those extra sleeves/connections will be? Also wonder how much of a role the larger connection pipes play in maintaining the intake pressure? Wonder if Wagner came up with any new features such as flow dynamics inside the unit/end tanks? I say that because it's been years since they designed the Competition EVO1/EVO2. Did Wagner just copy the previous products, but make it bigger with the EVO3, or are there refinements? Just wondering out loud.

Please post if you get new information.
All good questions.

I already see ambient and IAT deltas of 60F on hot track days with the Evo 2 comp. That's 150F+ IAT's on 90-100F ambient days, and is the main reason I run E30 at the track—the timing & power pull is way less with E30 than 93 and keeps power levels up, and in my logs E30 also does a little better than 100 octane in this respect.

To compare, I saw the same max ambient & IAT deltas when I was running the full Dinan Stage 4 package and FMIC. Altho, when I switched to the Wagner Evo 2, around town IAT was lower and it cools off much quicker between corners at the track.

I'll add some logs below:

Stage 2 5.7 Race Gas with 100 octane
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d39e50bc090c65ddbf480c0

Stage 2H 5.7 E30 with E32
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d7a550dae729b06e29120ea

Stage 2 5.8 E30 with E34
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d7a93fcc090c677bd36877e

And for those really interested, my whole IAT, oil, coolant temp saga is here: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1525790

Doing something like adding a larger turbo to get similar/more power at lower boost levels, and upgrading the HPFP to run E40-50 is all I can think of to get these temps in check without turning the thing into a race car.

Hence, my interest in real world performance of the Evo 3 comp.
Have you found anyone at all who has purchased the Wagner Competition EVO3? Wonder how many Mike has sold? Have you contacted Wagner directly?

Wagner has a create your own custom intercooler section on their website. Maybe they have the components that you could have them make you a Competition EVO2.5 custom intercooler.

https://www.wagner-tuning.com/
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      02-15-2020, 02:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
Have you found anyone at all who has purchased the Wagner Competition EVO3? Wonder how many Mike has sold? Have you contacted Wagner directly?

Wagner has a create your own custom intercooler section on their website. Maybe they have the components that you could have them make you a Competition EVO2.5 custom intercooler.

https://www.wagner-tuning.com/
Yeah, maybe Mike can let us know if anyone is using the Evo 3 yet.

I emailed Wagner some of our general questions, didn’t know about the custom program—cool!
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      02-15-2020, 11:12 PM   #14
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Hmm some awesome feedback on the wagner coolers.

Does anyone have any feedback or experience with the AA or VSF coolers?
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      02-16-2020, 12:52 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freestylerfalcon View Post
Hmm some awesome feedback on the wagner coolers.

Does anyone have any feedback or experience with the AA or VSF coolers?
Subscribed. Would also like input on ATM or ARM if anyone has experiences with those. I'm stage 1 MHD and was just going to wait for FMIC until stage 2 but not sure whether to go with EVO 3 or ATM as they seem like the best options right now. My plans are to get my hands on the FX-180 by spool performance when that releases and then PS3 with upgraded manifold Just need to figure out FMIC...
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      02-16-2020, 10:03 AM   #16
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https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1312458

What I could find on the ARM - from the first page, it looks like it’s a good low cost option that competed well with the VRSF 5” intercooler.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1518971
ATM outperformed the Wagner


https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1651084&page=2

Turbosmart BOV
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      02-19-2020, 06:58 PM   #17
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Hey guys, here’s some feedback from Wagner regarding Evo 3 Comp transient flow/throttle response and brace strength:

“Point 1: The increase of internal charge air volume doesn't affect response noticeable, but the less pressure drop affect response behavior positively!

Point 2: The brace was designed with help of FEM simulations, to match with carrying capacity of stock mounted brace. Therefore we use 4mm wall thickness with additional reinforcement. The crash safety aspects shouldn´t be affected.”

The 25F lower IAT vs the Evo 2 Comp is pretty damn impressive, and it weighs less than 30lbs bc it’s tube & fin which should also continue the trend I’ve seen on track of the Wagner Comp’s cooling off faster bn pulls vs bar & plate IC’s.

This is very tempting for those hot summer track days!
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      Yesterday, 12:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Hey guys, here’s some feedback from Wagner regarding Evo 3 Comp transient flow/throttle response and brace strength:

“Point 1: The increase of internal charge air volume doesn't affect response noticeable, but the less pressure drop affect response behavior positively!

Point 2: The brace was designed with help of FEM simulations, to match with carrying capacity of stock mounted brace. Therefore we use 4mm wall thickness with additional reinforcement. The crash safety aspects shouldn´t be affected.”

The 25F lower IAT vs the Evo 2 Comp is pretty damn impressive, and it weighs less than 30lbs bc it’s tube & fin which should also continue the trend I’ve seen on track of the Wagner Comp’s cooling off faster bn pulls vs bar & plate IC’s.

This is very tempting for those hot summer track days!
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