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      11-07-2021, 12:36 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by johnung View Post
My car now has upgraded Dorch2 HPFP and Precision Raceworks 2.5 LPFP, along with a Zeitronix CANBus ethanol sensor and ethanol gauge with Precision Raceworks fuel lines. So I am going to run one of the BootMod3 FlexFuel MultiMap tunes. But which one?

It appears that a MultiMap Stage2 or Stage2+ base tune is supposed to be chosen as a minimum quality of fuel that the tune begins at. So if FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 91ACN is flashed that should mean that even poor quality 91 Octane could be put in the tank if ethanol fuel is not available.

But if the assumption is made that ethanol fuel will always be available, then the FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ E30 might be flashed as the minimum tune.

THE BIG QUESTION IS if both of these tunes are provided with E50 fuel, because they are FlexFuel tunes, do they have identical performance, or not? Below are logs of the two. Any analysis/ opinions are appreciated!

BootMod3 FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 91ACN with E50 in the tank

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...0b430ecab684c4

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...0b430f4af9958f

BM3 FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ E30 with E50 in the tank

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6187...90c6283fe0a9a2

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6187...0b430f4af9966e

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6187...0b430ecab68584
I had this exact question in my head early today while we were going back & forth! These are absolutely two different tunes and results!

The 2+ E30 multimap has several more degrees of timing, while the 91 tune is achieving a couple degrees higher boost in the upper RPMs with less timing. I'm guessing the E30 2+ tune feels quicker but looses steam up top, while the 91 is slower and feels more consistent.

This begs the question of if you run the 2+ E30 multimap and then go to regular pump gas, will that more aggressive tune scale back to compensate? And if so, to what?

I'm still rather confused about all this. I just want to be able to make more power on the E30 2+ multimap with higher ethanol mixes, and then Stg 2 93 OTS like power when using 93.
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      11-07-2021, 01:22 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
My car now has upgraded Dorch2 HPFP and Precision Raceworks 2.5 LPFP, along with a Zeitronix CANBus ethanol sensor and ethanol gauge with Precision Raceworks fuel lines. So I am going to run one of the BootMod3 FlexFuel MultiMap tunes. But which one?

It appears that a MultiMap Stage2 or Stage2+ base tune is supposed to be chosen as a minimum quality of fuel that the tune begins at. So if FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 91ACN is flashed that should mean that even poor quality 91 Octane could be put in the tank if ethanol fuel is not available.

But if the assumption is made that ethanol fuel will always be available, then the FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ E30 might be flashed as the minimum tune.

THE BIG QUESTION IS if both of these tunes are provided with E50 fuel, because they are FlexFuel tunes, do they have identical performance, or not? Below are logs of the two. Any analysis/ opinions are appreciated!

BootMod3 FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 91ACN with E50 in the tank

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...0b430ecab684c4

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...0b430f4af9958f

BM3 FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ E30 with E50 in the tank

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6187...90c6283fe0a9a2

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6187...0b430f4af9966e

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6187...0b430ecab68584
I had this exact question in my head early today while we were going back & forth! These are absolutely two different tunes and results!

The 2+ E30 multimap has several more degrees of timing, while the 91 tune is achieving a couple degrees higher boost in the upper RPMs with less timing. I'm guessing the E30 2+ tune feels quicker but looses steam up top, while the 91 is slower and feels more consistent.

This begs the question of if you run the 2+ E30 multimap and then go to regular pump gas, will that more aggressive tune scale back to compensate? And if so, to what?

I'm still rather confused about all this. I just want to be able to make more power on the E30 2+ multimap with higher ethanol mixes, and then Stg 2 93 OTS like power when using 93.
I ran the FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 91ACN with E50 this past week and it felt strong. This week I'll be running the FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ E30 with E50. I'll see if it feels different.

I'm assuming that the FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ E30 tune will act like the regular Stage2+ E30 tune if it is given less than E30 for fuel- not good! Like giving a 93 tune, 91 octane fuel.

I have similar goals. I'd like the FlexFuel tune to scale up and give me the highest performance that it can based on the percentage of Ethanol that it receives. At the same time if I get stuck like last week without access to E85, I just want to be able to pump 93 or even 91 into the tank and have it adjust automatically.

Switching between the MultiMap Stage2 tunes really was a breeze.
91ACN <-> 91 <-> 93
Hold down the cruise control button for 3 seconds and the tach needle jumps up to 1000, 2000 or 3000 to indicate which of the three tunes is running. Hold it down and use the cruise control up/down switch to change tune. Very easy!

But the Stage2+ E30 is not a choice. Have to flash the MultiMap Stage2+ to obtain that choice, and then you don't have the other 91 and 93 choices that are only under MultiMap Stage2.

If my wife calls me saying that the station is out of E85, I don't have the option of telling her to flash a different tune. That would be suicide on my part! 😀
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      11-07-2021, 05:47 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Awesome, thanks!

First, comparing your Stage 2+ E30 log to mine (our IATs and engine temps are in a similar range), it's interesting that you're hitting 14.0 max timing and I'm 12.5. However, you begin to not meet boost target above 5K RPM and are 5psi below target at redline. That must just be the flow restriction on your F30's turbo & manifold, but it looks like the map is compensating by increasing timing with the lower actual boost levels? IDK.

As for the difference bn Stg 2+ E30 and the Multimap, you hit max timing of 15.5 with a similar deviation in boost target above 5K. With the ethanol sensor and flex blend factor in play with the Multimap, things like STFT's are being managed differently and it looks like you're making more power.

But, how does the Stg 2+ Multimap feel comparing to the Stg 2+ E30 OTS to you?
And, how do both maps feel in general to you above 5k RPM when your actual boost is dropping below target? Quicker to shift at 6K RPM?

Lastly, some guys report that burble settings are lost b/n Map 1 and the other selectable maps, when switching between them. Is that also the case when doing flexfuel, or do burble settings stay intact as ethanol levels and the map scale up and down?
I have a F32 and his boost levels and targets are lower compared to my stage 2+ logs and mine still hits the target, if not it's really close to target, up to 6k when I shift.

At a quick glance it looks like johnung targets 1.5-2° degrees more throughout but the boost target is much lower.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=615c...0b4355c23158d0
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      11-07-2021, 08:43 PM   #48
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So i have all the logs in excel and need to figure out how i am going to automate my review to easily compare relevant parameters. In the meantime i threw them in VD. Power looks very consistent between each stage, with the 2+ making only a little more than the stage 2. Clearly the flexfuel is adapting automatically between the different octane settings within a stage which is why they are all so similar.
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      11-07-2021, 09:03 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
So i have all the logs in excel and need to figure out how i am going to automate my review to easily compare relevant parameters. In the meantime i threw them in VD. Power looks very consistent between each stage, with the 2+ making only a little more than the stage 2. Clearly the flexfuel is adapting automatically between the different octane settings within a stage which is why they are all so similar.
So you are saying that the FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 and FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ tunes may have about the same performance on higher ethanol fuel.

These logs were all using E50 fuel. I'll run down the tank and get some logs with E65/E70 and later E85.
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      11-07-2021, 11:37 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
So you are saying that the FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 and FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ tunes may have about the same performance on higher ethanol fuel.

These logs were all using E50 fuel. I'll run down the tank and get some logs with E65/E70 and later E85.
I need to look at the logs more, but i suspect it might be because boost is only slightly higher in the 2+, and a lot of power is coming from extra timing.
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      11-08-2021, 12:57 PM   #51
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per ptf website,
"In this demo, we're demonstrating on a 2015 BMW F80 M3 which starts out with a 20% ethanol blend in the tank. Those that enjoy the details can see the blend factors are set for 0.50 for this ethanol level just as an example. Currently there are 3 main blend factor tables, ignition, fuel and torque, and they can be individually used to scale among many tables required for tuning Flex Fuel, from cold starting the car with full ethanol in the tank to full on power. In the end of the video we add some more alcohol and you can see in the bootmod3 dashboard how the Flex % goes upwards from 20% to 27% as the fuel system catches up and the fuel in the tank gets a chance to blend as it isn't instant."

i took a look at the map editor to get more details on the blend factors and here it is:
you build your 3 individual tables of ethanol content (0 to 100) vs blend factor (0 to 1).
ignition = timing advance factor
fuel = lambda factor
torque = "maximum permissible clutch torque" factor

i believe the question was whether or not boost is part of the equation as a response to ethanol content. i think the answer to that is same answer of whether or not boost is part of the equation for 'maximum permissible clutch torque'. i'd say yes. at the end of the day the dme is just trying to reach the torque target within the individual limits of boost, timing, and overall torque.
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      11-08-2021, 01:23 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5w20 View Post
I have a F32 and his boost levels and targets are lower compared to my stage 2+ logs and mine still hits the target, if not it's really close to target, up to 6k when I shift.

At a quick glance it looks like johnung targets 1.5-2° degrees more throughout but the boost target is much lower.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=615c...0b4355c23158d0
Is this an OTS map? Looks like its an older version 001, compared to his 003, if that represents tune version?

Your log targets a flat 20.8 psi across the RPM. His logs on both stage 2+ E30 and 2+ multimap go from about 16 psi at low RPM to 20.6 psi in the upper RPM. Not sure why his boost target would be different than yours on the 2+ E30 map unless you modified something or are running a different version.
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      11-08-2021, 02:02 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5w20 View Post
I have a F32 and his boost levels and targets are lower compared to my stage 2+ logs and mine still hits the target, if not it's really close to target, up to 6k when I shift.

At a quick glance it looks like johnung targets 1.5-2° degrees more throughout but the boost target is much lower.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=615c...0b4355c23158d0
Is this an OTS map? Looks like its an older version 001, compared to his 003, if that represents tune version?

Your log targets a flat 20.8 psi across the RPM. His logs on both stage 2+ E30 and 2+ multimap go from about 16 psi at low RPM to 20.6 psi in the upper RPM. Not sure why his boost target would be different than yours on the 2+ E30 map unless you modified something or are running a different version.
FYI- attached photos show the version numbers of the two Stage2+ tunes that I flashed and logged: the standard Stage2+ E30 tune and the MultiMap version.
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      11-09-2021, 10:13 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Is this an OTS map? Looks like its an older version 001, compared to his 003, if that represents tune version?

Your log targets a flat 20.8 psi across the RPM. His logs on both stage 2+ E30 and 2+ multimap go from about 16 psi at low RPM to 20.6 psi in the upper RPM. Not sure why his boost target would be different than yours on the 2+ E30 map unless you modified something or are running a different version.
Yes OTS, I believe it is V7.1

All my 2+ logs target 20.6-20.8, I did notice the HPFP target is 2400 psi in some while 2800 psi in others

Last edited by 5w20; 11-09-2021 at 10:20 AM..
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      11-09-2021, 10:33 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
FYI- attached photos show the version numbers of the two Stage2+ tunes that I flashed and logged: the standard Stage2+ E30 tune and the MultiMap version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5w20 View Post
Yes OTS, I believe it is V7.1

All my 2+ logs target 20.6-20.8, I did notice the HPFP target is 2400 psi in some while 2800 psi in others
I am not sure why yours are different then. johnung is your flex fuel enabled on even the non-multimap 2+ E30?
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      11-09-2021, 01:24 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
FYI- attached photos show the version numbers of the two Stage2+ tunes that I flashed and logged: the standard Stage2+ E30 tune and the MultiMap version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5w20 View Post
Yes OTS, I believe it is V7.1

All my 2+ logs target 20.6-20.8, I did notice the HPFP target is 2400 psi in some while 2800 psi in others
I am not sure why yours are different then. johnung is your flex fuel enabled on even the non-multimap 2+ E30?
My understanding is that FlexFuel is only engaged if a MultiMap tune is flashed. If I flash the older Stage2+ E30 tune, that shouldn't have any CANBus smarts in it to recognize or act on any ethanol readings coming in from my Zeitronix sensor. The tune would just be assuming that it's getting E30 from the tank.

Now the logs that I posted were all done with E50 in the tank. So there would be whatever differences are normal in the logs if the engine is receiving a higher octane fuel. Like giving a 91 octane tune, 93 octane fuel.
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      11-09-2021, 01:37 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
My understanding is that FlexFuel is only engaged if a MultiMap tune is flashed. If I flash the older Stage2+ E30 tune, that shouldn't have any CANBus smarts in it to recognize or act on any ethanol readings coming in from my Zeitronix sensor. The tune would just be assuming that it's getting E30 from the tank.

Now the logs that I posted were all done with E50 in the tank. So there would be whatever differences are normal in the logs if the engine is receiving a higher octane fuel. Like giving a 91 octane tune, 93 octane fuel.
Got it, just doesnt seem to explain why his boost target is much different (and behaves differently overall).

I made a little progress on looking at your logs yesterday. I decided to write a script to automate things so that im not just using excel. That way i can easily look at more things/different logs in an automated fashion in the future. I'll keep chipping away at it as i have more time. The key thing will be plotting one parameter at a time vs RPM across all logs (each log as a different line on said graph).
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      11-09-2021, 02:48 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
My understanding is that FlexFuel is only engaged if a MultiMap tune is flashed. If I flash the older Stage2+ E30 tune, that shouldn't have any CANBus smarts in it to recognize or act on any ethanol readings coming in from my Zeitronix sensor. The tune would just be assuming that it's getting E30 from the tank.

Now the logs that I posted were all done with E50 in the tank. So there would be whatever differences are normal in the logs if the engine is receiving a higher octane fuel. Like giving a 91 octane tune, 93 octane fuel.
Got it, just doesnt seem to explain why his boost target is much different (and behaves differently overall).

I made a little progress on looking at your logs yesterday. I decided to write a script to automate things so that im not just using excel. That way i can easily look at more things/different logs in an automated fashion in the future. I'll keep chipping away at it as i have more time. The key thing will be plotting one parameter at a time vs RPM across all logs (each log as a different line on said graph).
My engine is N55 EWG. Is his the same? Maybe PWG has different targets?

The BM3 settings that I have that may be different than his are:
Both TMAP sensors are 3.5bar
HPFP is Dorch2
Burbles are set to none.

But don't know if any of those things could change target values
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      11-09-2021, 02:50 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnung View Post
My engine is N55 EWG. Is his the same? Maybe PWG has different targets?

The BM3 settings that I have that may be different than his are:
Both TMAP sensors are 3.5bar
HPFP is Dorch2
Burbles are set to none.

But don't know if any of those things could change target values
I dont think so, and he has to be EWG since there is no 2+ PWG map. Most of the earlier logs i saw for 2+ E30 were the same as his - a flat boost target around 20.8 psi. But yeah will look in more detail once i dig into yours.
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      11-09-2021, 06:03 PM   #60
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johnung Your logs are indicative of needing the XHP trans tune, as your boost targets are being limited since your BM3 trans tune doesn’t lift torque limits enough. My stg 2+ logs looked like yours until I went with XHP. See logs in the other 2+ thread for comparison. You’re missing out on tons of power. I hit over 475 RAM tq at clutch actual values and you are at like 400.

Also wanted to say that if this tune doesn’t scare you a bit, then something is wrong as it is dramatically faster and explosive in it’s power delivery, especially as you up ethanol percentage past 50%. I have E67 on Stg 2+ E30 CustomRom LiveAdjusted to that E% in the tank now and it’s a new level of fright from about 2K till a touch past 6K.

Here’s a log with multiple pulls with E60.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8da

Last edited by ctt300; 11-09-2021 at 06:34 PM..
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      11-09-2021, 06:54 PM   #61
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ctt300 Could you please explain the Live Adjust process for those of us that haven’t installed an ethanol sensor, yet?

Thanks!
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      11-09-2021, 07:04 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctt300 View Post
johnung Your logs are indicative of needing the XHP trans tune, as your boost targets are being limited since your BM3 trans tune doesn't lift torque limits enough. My stg 2+ logs looked like yours until I went with XHP. See logs in the other 2+ thread for comparison. You're missing out on tons of power. I hit over 475 RAM tq at clutch actual values and you are at like 400.

Also wanted to say that if this tune doesn't scare you a bit, then something is wrong as it is dramatically faster and explosive in it's power delivery, especially as you up ethanol percentage past 50%. I have E67 on Stg 2+ E30 CustomRom LiveAdjusted to that E% in the tank now and it's a new level of fright from about 2K till a touch past 6K.

Here's a log with multiple pulls with E60.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6186...90c6283fe0a8da
Thanks for the comments. I'm actually intending to get XHP pretty soon. I just don't like to change more than one variable at a time when I'm testing.

Right now I'm testing with E50 in the tank because I can use all of the FlexFuel tunes including MultiMap Stage2+ E30 and the standard Stage2+ E30. Next I'm going to try the FlexFuel MultiMap with E65/E70 and E85.

Im curious what your configuration is, especially which FMIC you are using since I need to upgrade. Thanks.
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      11-09-2021, 07:10 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
ctt300 Could you please explain the Live Adjust process for those of us that haven’t installed an ethanol sensor, yet?

Thanks!
Very simply look on the left pane of the BM3 app for LiveAdjust and then hit the “override E sensor %” or similar and then use the slider to adjust it to the E% you have in the tank.

I think you know this, but you have to be flashed with either a Multimap tune or a CustomRom converted tune that can be any OTS tune -to convert go into “My maps” and choose any tune and then at the bottom is a button to “CustomRom Convert.” Then it is flex-fuel capable and can also be overridden manually with liveadjust E %.
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      11-09-2021, 07:20 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctt300 View Post
Very simply look on the left pane of the BM3 app for LiveAdjust and then hit the “override E sensor %” or similar and then use the slider to adjust it to the E% you have in the tank.

I think you know this, but you have to be flashed with either a Multimap tune or a CustomRom converted tune that can be any OTS tune -to convert go into “My maps” and choose any tune and then at the bottom is a button to “CustomRom Convert.” Then it is flex-fuel capable and can also be overridden manually with liveadjust E %.
Got it.

Another newbie question: Since Live Adjust isn't available unless you're connected to the car, do yo have to manually adjust every time you start the car, or can you save the Live Adjusted tune as a new map, e.g., Stg 2+ E60?
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      11-09-2021, 07:31 PM   #65
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johnung Its the CSF intercooler…think there is only one. Reg price is $599, but can find for $499 I believe. It’s excellent and drops IAT through pulls. No increased lag.
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      11-09-2021, 07:33 PM   #66
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ZM2 Yes, must adjust liveadjust every time you start up, But you can run the 2+ E30 tune with lots of ethanol and be fine without adjusting if you didn’t want to.
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