[the dope steez]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Also, if you're RWD, don't bother with anything else other than:

1. BMW M Performance Suspension Kit. The kit includes all the accessories that you need to do a proper install such as new top mounts, bolts, etc. Kit + springs: https://getbmwparts.com/partlocator/...catalogid=4462. Replacement struts + accessories: https://getbmwparts.com/parts/index....&siteid=214672 which is only $600.

2. Ohlins Road and Track - It's only ~$2300 http://www.hpashop.com/Ohlins-RT-F3x...ins-RT-F3x.htm

I don't really see the point of KW, Bilstein, any other suspension mod other than those 2.

Ha what makes you say that? How many miles have you driven on any of those kits? KW and Bilstein make respected and well reviewed suspension systems that will probably never be pushed to their real limits even by 'spirited' drivers.
The LSD will have more impact if you are tracking the car, suspension during day to day driving and appearance.

[F32Fleet]

Tires, brakes, LSD. Depending on your skill set it may take awhile for you to out drive the suspension of the car.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by the dope steez

Ha what makes you say that? How many miles have you driven on any of those kits? KW and Bilstein make respected and well reviewed suspension systems that will probably never be pushed to their real limits even by 'spirited' drivers.
The LSD will have more impact if you are tracking the car, suspension during day to day driving and appearance.

Yes, however, it's near universal agreement that Ohlins R&T > KW (non clubsport) and Bilstein (non Clubsport). Based on historical forum reviews and feedback, Ohlins is definitely a company that does their research for each specific application. There's a different part number for the F2X and the F3X chassis, which is not the case with KW and Bilstein. The latter manufacturers seem to take the "well, it's good enough to cover everything" approach.

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Tires, brakes, LSD. Depending on your skill set it may take awhile for you to out drive the suspension of the car.

+1. Those are my thoughts and those upgrades were exactly the same progression I took with my car. It generally takes a decent bit of time behind on the wheel at the track to out drive the suspension of a car.

1. Tires - Square Michelin 255/40/18 Pilot Super Sports.
2. Brakes - F8X M3/M4 stock pads in my M Sport Brake Option. They're holding up to HPDE use for now. If I'm spending more time in the Intermediate/Advanced or Advanced run groups, I may need to move up to Pagid RSL29 pads.
3. LSD - You can apply more throttle much sooner after apexing. Without an LSD, you really have to wait for the car to settle because accelerating out of a corner was a bit "busier" with that open differential. This definitely shows when you're on the skid pad and trying to maintain oversteer.
4. M Performance Suspension Kit - I basically did this because my stock passive 704 Sport Suspension was due to be replaced at approximately > 70,000 miles.

I suppose if you're just a typical commuter driver and are simply concerned with how the car rides on a straight highway, you could just do suspension, but that type of static driving would seem awfully boring.

[DSH7]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

1. Tires - Square Michelin 255/40/18 Pilot Super Sports.

Off subject, but what size wheels do you have for a square 255 setup?

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by DSH7

Off subject, but what size wheels do you have for a square 255 setup?

APEX ARC-8 18x8.5 ET38, no spacers.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Why would you do suspension first when it's a wear item? You'll have to replace it eventually. Just do it then.

why replace your diff before it fails? because it's an upgrade, that's why. this is really a ridiculous argument.

i also vote coilovers. you get the benefits of looks and performance that you don't need to drive at the limit to feel during regular street driving. instant gratification.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by kern417

why replace your diff before it fails? because it's an upgrade, that's why. this is really a ridiculous argument.

i also vote coilovers. you get the benefits of looks and performance that you don't need to drive at the limit to feel during regular street driving. instant gratification.

A stock open differential is not a wear item and should not fail unless you're a "tuning-bro". It's a waste of money to replace wear items prematurely or to replace items that your skill set is not exceeding at the moment.

Since the OP is asking suspension vs. LSD, it's reasonable to assume that he's concerned with performance and not just the opinions of his stance brethren.

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Tires, brakes, LSD. Depending on your skill set it may take awhile for you to out drive the suspension of the car.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

A stock open differential is not a wear item and should not fail unless you're a "tuning-bro". It's a waste of money to replace wear items prematurely or to replace items that your skill set is not exceeding at the moment.

Since the OP is asking suspension vs. LSD, it's reasonable to assume that he's concerned with performance and not just the opinions of his stance brethren.

lol. by your lingo, idk whether you've been oversaturated with social media or memes.

regardless, a differential is a wear item. Eventually it will fail and need to be replaced. Doesn't matter how well you take care of it. he's modifying the car to improve it. you don't have to wait for an item to fail to replace it. clearly people on this board value modifications over $$$ value. that's just an absurd statement to make when someone is clearly modifying their car for one purpose.

i've done both and can say that i enjoyed the coilovers much more. an lsd only helps you in turns when you are pushing it. the open diff is plenty capable until you start pulling a wheel, especially with summer tires. with coilovers you instantly feel the car get stiffer and stay more level through turns at any speed. i threw an lsd on my car first thinking it would transform it and still spun on the street and drag strip. it wasn't until i started tracking the car heavily that i felt the handling improvement.

and since OP is asking suspension vs. LSD which will make the greater difference in overall handling and feel on a daily driver, i vote coilovers. you won't be waiting for sweeping on ramps to enjoy it (only to get stuck behind a minivan when you finally get to a good one).

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by kern417

lol. by your lingo, idk whether you've been oversaturated with social media or memes.

regardless, a differential is a wear item. Eventually it will fail and need to be replaced. Doesn't matter how well you take care of it. he's modifying the car to improve it. you don't have to wait for an item to fail to replace it. clearly people on this board value modifications over $$$ value. that's just an absurd statement to make when someone is clearly modifying their car for one purpose.

i've done both and can say that i enjoyed the coilovers much more. an lsd only helps you in turns when you are pushing it. the open diff is plenty capable until you start pulling a wheel, especially with summer tires. with coilovers you instantly feel the car get stiffer and stay more level through turns at any speed. i threw an lsd on my car first thinking it would transform it and still spun on the street and drag strip. it wasn't until i started tracking the car heavily that i felt the handling improvement.

and since OP is asking suspension vs. LSD which will make the greater difference in overall handling and feel on a daily driver, i vote coilovers. you won't be waiting for sweeping on ramps to enjoy it (only to get stuck behind a minivan when you finally get to a good one).

Originally Posted by dr.roro

2015 F32 435i M Sport, RWD, 8AT, Adaptive M Suspension
Daily driver, occasional autocross, maybe once/yr track in future

Debating M Performance LSD vs. KW Street Comfort coilovers. Both are about $2000 + $500 install (rough numbers).

Which is the better bang for buck? Which will make the greater difference in overall handling and feel?

You missed everything besides the daily driver portion, but even then, if you want a better daily driver, are coilovers that much better than the Adaptive M suspension?

I would make the argument that because he lives in Maryland, is RWD, and does see some snow in the winter season, an LSD is a greater improvement for a car that is a daily driven even in inclement weather conditions.

So to answer the question of which is the better bang for the buck? Given that he already has the optioned Adaptive M suspension and wants this car to be both his daily and occasional track/autox vehicle, an LSD is the better bang for the buck.

[F30_SixSpeed]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

You missed everything besides the daily driver portion, but even then, if you want a better daily driver, are coilovers that much better than the Adaptive M suspension?

I would make the argument that because he lives in Maryland, is RWD, and does see some snow in the winter season, an LSD is a greater improvement for a car that is a daily driven even in inclement weather conditions.

So to answer the question of which is the better bang for the buck? Given that he already has the optioned Adaptive M suspension and wants this car to be both his daily and occasional track/autox vehicle, an LSD is the better bang for the buck.

Again you are talking out of your ass and not based on personal experience. I had the adaptive m suspension and replaced them with KW V2 Coilovers with EDC module. My handling and comfort has significantly improved. Difference is night and day. So yes... to answer your question... coilovers are "that much" better then m adaptive suspension.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by F30_SixSpeed

Again you are talking out of your ass and not based on personal experience. I had the adaptive m suspension and replaced them with KW V2 Coilovers with EDC module. My handling and comfort has significantly improved. Difference is night and day. So yes... to answer your question... coilovers are "that much" better then m adaptive suspension.

Why did you even get a car with Adaptive M suspension in the first place if you're just going to gut it and replace it with coilovers? You do realize that with every single PsdZData firmware revision, suspension tuning on the Adaptive M suspension may change, right? Have you had more than 2 different firmware flashes to make that determination conclusively?

At the end of the day, you'll always get people who cheerlead the purchases they've made. I'm also not surprised you'll have more people pedaling the coilovers because that's an easier DIY. If you can get the car on jack stands in your garage/driveway, you can install coilovers. The same is not true for the differential. You pretty much need a lift, transmission/diff jack, and a BMW special tool to remove the axle shafts.

Also, the optimum suspension geometry is about 10mm lower than the 704 Sport Suspension. That's a figure that Ohlins, AST, and BMW have pretty much agreed upon. If you're lowering your car more than that, then you've clearly placed importance of aesthetics over function/performance.

[Lancelot]

Guys there’s no need for such a heated argument, you’re both respected members, i’ve been here long enough to know that... bottom line to me is both upgrades are worthwhile.

To chime in in some way that i hope is useful
1) I’d say wearables are primarily tyres and brakes (and fluids but well...), dampers come later in life as does friction-plates LSD, but *not* open or quaife-style differentials. Ultimately a car is wearable anyway, depending on the time horizon you consider.
2) coilovers also come in EDC compatible flavour, i’m happy with my KW DDC coilovers, giving much better body roll control as well as braking performance without losing the adaptive aspect (i like my gadgets )

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Why did you even get a car with Adaptive M suspension in the first place if you're just going to gut it and replace it with coilovers? You do realize that with every single PsdZData firmware revision, suspension tuning on the Adaptive M suspension may change, right? Have you had more than 2 different firmware flashes to make that determination conclusively?

At the end of the day, you'll always get people who cheerlead the purchases they've made. I'm also not surprised you'll have more people pedaling the coilovers because that's an easier DIY. If you can get the car on jack stands in your garage/driveway, you can install coilovers. The same is not true for the differential. You pretty much need a lift, transmission/diff jack, and a BMW special tool to remove the axle shafts.

Also, the optimum suspension geometry is about 10mm lower than the 704 Sport Suspension. That's a figure that Ohlins, AST, and BMW have pretty much agreed upon. If you're lowering your car more than that, then you've clearly placed importance of aesthetics over function/performance.

i actually specifically didn't get adaptive suspension because i knew i wanted coilovers lol. and there are plenty of ways to fix suspension geometry when lowering your car. but regarding function/performance, folks generally mod their car to feel something different and make the car more fun to drive. and you will 100% feel coilovers more than you will feel the difference with an LSD. that goes for track/autox as well (even though OP hasn't been to a track yet and said he may do it in the future). point being, lowering the car will provide performance gains everywhere while and LSD only provides gains coming out of a corner. and like i said, i've done both, so no cheerleading or bias over here.

if you want to be honest, tell OP that after tires and brakes, you're not going to be knocking seconds off fast with any one mod.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by kern417

i actually specifically didn't get adaptive suspension because i knew i wanted coilovers lol. and there are plenty of ways to fix suspension geometry when lowering your car. but regarding function/performance, folks generally mod their car to feel something different and make the car more fun to drive. and you will 100% feel coilovers more than you will feel the difference with an LSD. that goes for track/autox as well (even though OP hasn't been to a track yet and said he may do it in the future). point being, lowering the car will provide performance gains everywhere while and LSD only provides gains coming out of a corner. and like i said, i've done both, so no cheerleading or bias over here.

if you want to be honest, tell OP that after tires and brakes, you're not going to be knocking seconds off fast with any one mod.

If the OP has never AutoX or tracked the car on the stock suspension, he needs to try to do that before modifying his suspension. Most instructors advise you to spend at least a year on the stock suspension and understand/observe its limits before changing something.

But it also sounds like the OP doesn't want to do anything other than coilovers to his suspension regarding suspension geometry.

Also, look at the following front axle drops:

Base RWD - 0mm
704 Sport Suspension RWD - 10mm
Ohlins, AST, and BMW M Performance - 20mm (recommended - * Ohlins and AST can be set to stock height)
KW Street Comfort for RWD - 1.2" ~ 30.5mm (minimum drop - beyond the optimal drop)
KW V3 - 1.6" ~ 40.6mm (minimum drop)

KW is more for aesthetics and takes the "good enough" approach to apply to a wide range of chassis codes. If you're going to spend that much money on a coilover system for a RWD F2X, F3X chassis, do it right from the beginning and go with Ohlins or AST.

In addition, the OP lives in Maryland which sees snow and is hilly. If this car is going to be a daily driver even in the winter, I'd recommend a minimal drop and an LSD.

Upon further review, kern417 , are you the guy that was looking to install an air lift system on your car...

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1404655

Originally Posted by kern417

I'm still waiting to receive my 440i so I am buying some parts to install ahead of time. I want coilovers to lower the car, but my driveway is very steep and won't let me lower the car to my liking.

I'm looking into coilovers with front lift systems and found Fortune Auto has an option, but it's very expensive. Has anyone used them before? Are there any other options available for the f30/f32? Or a kit you can piece together for cheaper?

And I'm not interested in bags. I drove in a car with them and didn't like the ride or opportunity for more maintenance issues. I'm specifically looking for a coilover with a front lift system.

Fortune Auto Kit for reference:
https://www.vividracing.com/catalog/-p-151576382.html

Details on KW HLS, still need to find pricing:
http://www.kwsuspensions.com/hls

[donkey]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

APEX ARC-8 18x8.5 ET38, no spacers.

Pics?

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

If the OP has never AutoX or tracked the car on the stock suspension, he needs to try to do that before modifying his suspension. Most instructors advise you to spend at least a year on the stock suspension and understand/observe its limits before changing something.

But it also sounds like the OP doesn't want to do anything other than coilovers to his suspension regarding suspension geometry.

Also, look at the following front axle drops:

Base RWD - 0mm
704 Sport Suspension RWD - 10mm
Ohlins, AST, and BMW M Performance - 20mm (recommended - * Ohlins and AST can be set to stock height)
KW Street Comfort for RWD - 1.2" ~ 30.5mm (minimum drop - beyond the optimal drop)
KW V3 - 1.6" ~ 40.6mm (minimum drop)

KW is more for aesthetics and takes the "good enough" approach to apply to a wide range of chassis codes. If you're going to spend that much money on a coilover system for a RWD F2X, F3X chassis, do it right from the beginning and go with Ohlins or AST.

In addition, the OP lives in Maryland which sees snow and is hilly. If this car is going to be a daily driver even in the winter, I'd recommend a minimal drop and an LSD.

Upon further review, kern417 , are you the guy that was looking to install an air lift system on your car...

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1404655

i think you're just detached from the reality of the situation. telling someone to spend that much on performance coilovers for a daily driver is just as ridiculous as your other recommendations. OP wants to modify their car so it's more fun to drive and handles better. you act like he's building a race car.

and yes, i was looking at an air lift system because the house i lived in had a 30* slope to get into the driveway. i barely made it on a stock car without scraping, so there would be no chances after lowering with a front lip. the design of the kit is the same as what you get on exotics to lift the front end. you must have thought i was looking for air bags but regardless, the house i'm in now has a flat driveway, so no worries there either .

idk what planet you live on but for everyone else that's having fun, coilovers is 100% the way to go. half the people i know are disappointed because an lsd didn't give them the benefit they thought it would, and the other half probably forgot they even have it installed. great for a road course, but nothing special for a daily driver. especially when you try to add speed and the whole car leans to the outside line. these cars tend to understeer from the factory anyway.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by kern417

i think you're just detached from the reality of the situation. telling someone to spend that much on performance coilovers for a daily driver is just as ridiculous as your other recommendations. OP wants to modify their car so it's more fun to drive and handles better. you act like he's building a race car.

and yes, i was looking at an air lift system because the house i lived in had a 30* slope to get into the driveway. i barely made it on a stock car without scraping, so there would be no chances after lowering with a front lip. the design of the kit is the same as what you get on exotics to lift the front end. you must have thought i was looking for air bags but regardless, the house i'm in now has a flat driveway, so no worries there either .

idk what planet you live on but for everyone else that's having fun, coilovers is 100% the way to go. half the people i know are disappointed because an lsd didn't give them the benefit they thought it would, and the other half probably forgot they even have it installed. great for a road course, but nothing special for a daily driver. especially when you try to add speed and the whole car leans to the outside line. these cars tend to understeer from the factory anyway.

The cost difference between KWs and Ohlins isn't that much. In fact, KW V3s are more expensive than Ohlins R&T. If you're going to get coilovers at about the same cost, why wouldn't you go with Ohlins? They'll be both more comfortable and perform better. There's really no reason not to go with Ohlins unless what you're looking for is to be as low to the ground as possible - stance!

I knew exactly what an air lift system was. At least air bags are functional when you're carrying higher payloads or towing with a substantial tongue weight. I just can't take someone who lowers his car substantially, installs a front lip that offers no functional benefit + reduces the front approach angle, and then needs to look into an "air lift" system to clear his own driveway seriously.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

The cost difference between KWs and Ohlins isn't that much. In fact, KW V3s are more expensive than Ohlins R&T. If you're going to get coilovers at about the same cost, why wouldn't you go with Ohlins? They'll be both more comfortable and perform better. There's really no reason not to go with Ohlins unless what you're looking for is to be as low to the ground as possible - stance!

I knew exactly what an air lift system was. At least air bags are functional when you're carrying higher payloads or towing with a substantial tongue weight. I just can't take someone who lowers his car substantially, installs a front lip that offers no functional benefit + reduces the front approach angle, and then needs to look into an "air lift" system to clear his own driveway seriously.

ohlins are $1k more than the coilovers that OP mentioned. and you can get cheaper from other reputable brands (H&R, Eibach, Bilstein) that will be a more comfortable ride without the features that you never use on a daily driver. a fixed system is more than capable for a daily and will net performance gains. otherwise why stop at ohlins? why aren't you running clubsport suspension with external reservoirs? smh, wasting your time with ohlins. amateur. as a matter of fact, why by a bmw to begin with. quit wasting your money until you can afford a mclaren.

like wth are you thinking

and now you are pretty much saying you don't understand why anyone would modify their car to improve the appearance. you're just as dense as i thought lol. go sell your car and build a miata. you'll finally hit your goal of all go/no show that you're yearning for.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by kern417

ohlins are $1k more than the coilovers that OP mentioned. and you can get cheaper from other reputable brands (H&R, Eibach, Bilstein) that will be a more comfortable ride without the features that you never use on a daily driver. a fixed system is more than capable for a daily and will net performance gains. otherwise why stop at ohlins? why aren't you running clubsport suspension with external reservoirs? smh, wasting your time with ohlins. amateur. as a matter of fact, why by a bmw to begin with. quit wasting your money until you can afford a mclaren.

like wth are you thinking

and now you are pretty much saying you don't understand why anyone would modify their car to improve the appearance. you're just as dense as i thought lol. go sell your car and build a miata. you'll finally hit your goal of all go/no show that you're yearning for.

Now we know for a fact that you're not that great at math... or composing a post in some semblance of proper English.

Ohlins coilovers - $2375 * http://www.hpashop.com/Ohlins-RT-F3x...ins-RT-F3x.htm
Installation accessories - ~$500 - replacement top hats, bolts, nuts, etc. which are recommended when installing suspension. bolts are stretch bolts which are one time use
Installation cost - ~$500 * per OP
Approximate total cost - $3375

KW Street Comfort - $1640
Installation accessories - ~$500 - replacement top hats, bolts, nuts, etc. which are recommended when installing suspension. bolts are stretch bolts which are one time use
Installation cost - ~$500 * per OP
Approximately total cost - $2640


From a percentage difference perspective, it's not significantly different. Like all things in life, if you're planning on doing something, just get it right the first time if possible.

[kern417]

nope, not a math issue.

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...-435xi/?pdk=AQ
$1320, albeit the awd version.

i've tried various coilovers from $500 solowerks to $900 bc's to $2k clubsport coils. the only thing i haven't tried is a regular strut/spring combo. But for daily driving fun and enjoyment, the $1000ish coils are great. nothing "wrong" about those options. like i said before, theres no doubt that there can be a performance improvement in the right setting with the right driver, but you're not going to experience that in day to day traffic. unless you are getting custom suspension with your own spring rates and adjustable dampening/rebound, camber/caster plates, etc etc etc. you're leaving something on the table. the definition of "right" is relative.

this reminds of another thread about how people waste money on their cars. like yes you can go spend $5k+ on ceramic brakes, but everyone knows it's a waste for street driving. there's nothing wrong with choosing an option that's still high quality but a better value.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by kern417

nope, not a math issue.

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...-435xi/?pdk=AQ
$1320, albeit the awd version.

i've tried various coilovers from $500 solowerks to $900 bc's to $2k clubsport coils. the only thing i haven't tried is a regular strut/spring combo. But for daily driving fun and enjoyment, the $1000ish coils are great. nothing "wrong" about those options. like i said before, theres no doubt that there can be a performance improvement in the right setting with the right driver, but you're not going to experience that in day to day traffic. unless you are getting custom suspension with your own spring rates and adjustable dampening/rebound, camber/caster plates, etc etc etc. you're leaving something on the table. the definition of "right" is relative.

this reminds of another thread about how people waste money on their cars. like yes you can go spend $5k+ on ceramic brakes, but everyone knows it's a waste for street driving. there's nothing wrong with choosing an option that's still high quality but a better value.

People have tried a lot of different mix/match combinations and some have had sub-optimal outcomes to include blown tophats using the H&R springs + Bilstein strut combo.

The best combination for a passive fixed suspension is - hands down - the BMW M Performance Suspension Kit. You give up a bit of NVH for a factory performance solution.

As far as ceramic brakes, they're too expensive to run at the track unless you're sponsored or are ridiculously wealthy. Steel brakes are the way to go for the average enthusiast.

[kern417]

so we agree on something. but there are plenty of people that got the ceramic brakes because it's the best, and why wouldn't you get the best if you're going to upgrade? so when someone asks if it's worth it, you have to consider other factors besides what's best performance-wise.

for example this go around on my 2018, i'm doing coilovers and axle back first. even though it doesn't make the car significantly faster, that's what made my previous cars the most fun and made the biggest difference in feel. my car already came with summer tires, and not interested in piggy back tunes currently, so i'm good in those areas. other mods will round it out down the road but an LSD wasn't the first thing i felt that i missed. i still can corner fast enough that my wife gets pissed at the lack of an o-shit handle.