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      05-19-2010, 12:53 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
Duhh, because the other stewards do not have an agenda to get back at MS....
The other sterwards are not jealous that MS won more WDC than they did and put them to shame.. the other stewards are not jealous that their hair has turned completely gray and they lost their step while a man only a few years younger is back in the car... The other three stewards are not jeaoulous that MS has I dunno 1000 times more money in the bank than they do...

Should I keep going??

As for the Lewis example, was the field bunched up behind a safety car?? No .. You guys still do not get my point
20 or 25 seconds is VERY different if the field is bunched up behind a SC, in which case you lose a lot of grid positions
Whether the field is bunched up or not makes no difference. What other penalty could they possibly give? A drive through is the only thing they can do. A stop and go is the next step. So 20 seconds for a drive through. It's pretty simple. The amount of grid positions lost is not the stewards problem. Maybe the driver should consider that before he decides to cheat.

And by your analysis of stewards, every race is cheated because all the drivers are younger than all the stewards and have way more money than them. Maybe next time you go to court you should tell the judge he's jealous of your youth.
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      05-19-2010, 12:56 PM   #112
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Penalty shmenalty ... who gives a shit, damnit we had one of us in the stands!!!!

Great pics Kampfer!! Thanks for posting those. That must have been an incredible sound, hearing them shooting out of that tunnel. It looks like you were in the grandstands that have their back to the tunnel. Is that right?

Great stuff man!! Share more!!! You have any videos ?
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      05-19-2010, 01:04 PM   #113
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I don't think the stewards should post a different penalty when the cars are bunched up after the SC.

Penalty is penalty...stewards should not vary their penalty because it'll have a bigger impact to the offending driver.

Managing penalties are important too, look at Nico Rosberg in Singapore 2008 and Mark Webber in Germany 2009. They managed and timed the lap to serve their penalty and make it less impace to themselves.

Tough luck for those made a violation at the closing stages of the race.
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      05-19-2010, 01:07 PM   #114
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Or if the driver have to serve the drive-thru penalty during SC, tough luck, everyone will pass you.

But that's what happens when you violate regulations "intentionally" or "un-intentionally".
Or even if you get the wrong message from anyone else.
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      05-19-2010, 01:20 PM   #115
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I don't understand why this is even being discussed. He violated a rule and was penalized. It's MSC's responsibility to know the rules. This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with a 15yr old grudge between the two. The rule is so clear that to not penalize him would have been an abortion of justice.
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      05-19-2010, 01:26 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
I don't understand why this is even being discussed. He violated a rule and was penalized. It's MSC's responsibility to know the rules. This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with a 15yr old grudge between the two. The rule is so clear that to not penalize him would have been an abortion of justice.
On the other hand, people will argue that there should not be a punishment because the race control and stewards are waving green flag and declare clear track.

That caused the entire scenerio a grey area.

And others just putting fuel on fire just because Damon Hill just happens to be one of the FIA stewards that Sunday.
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      05-19-2010, 01:39 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
On the other hand, people will argue that there should not be a punishment because the race control and stewards are waving green flag and declare clear track.

That caused the entire scenerio a grey area.

And others just putting fuel on fire just because Damon Hill just happens to be one of the FIA stewards that Sunday.
I think the only reason they did not literally cross the finish line behind the safety car is because it ruins a great photo opp for the race winners if they crawl over the line behind the flashing yellows of the SC.
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      05-19-2010, 01:43 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
I think the only reason they did not literally cross the finish line behind the safety car is because it ruins a great photo opp for the race winners if they crawl over the line behind the flashing yellows of the SC.
That's why there's regulation 40.13 clearly stated SC comes in to pitlane but no overtakes. However, if I recall Australia 2009, Jenson Button passed the finish line with yellow flags and flashing lights, and SC signs.

This is the reason why people are fustrated when Michael Schumacher saw the "Green flag" and over took Fernando Alonso, but got a penalty with the regulation 40.13.

All I can say is, rules are there, but race control and marshalls did not execute properly.
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      05-19-2010, 01:47 PM   #119
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I think they should have just had the SC pull off but keep the yellow flags waving. That did leave the situation rather vague.
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      05-19-2010, 01:57 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
I don't think the stewards should post a different penalty when the cars are bunched up after the SC.

Penalty is penalty...stewards should not vary their penalty because it'll have a bigger impact to the offending driver.

Managing penalties are important too, look at Nico Rosberg in Singapore 2008 and Mark Webber in Germany 2009. They managed and timed the lap to serve their penalty and make it less impace to themselves.

Tough luck for those made a violation at the closing stages of the race.
This is where we disagree... The penalty should fit the crime...
I think they could have easily taken the position away from him and relegated him back to 7th where he would have finished had he not made the pass ... Stewards should consider the effect of the penalty on the driver...
In the example of a race leader serving a penalty and coming out still in the lead is also a bad penalty since it did not hurt the driver in any way... So again making drivers give up positions (either during the race or relegating them a given number of positions after the race) is way more fair and consistent than the current penalties of 20 seconds or drive through which in reality punish the drivers only to the extent of where they happen to be on track...
That penalty would have been fair

So instead of a 20 second penalty, they should impose a 1 grid position penalty
Instead of a stop and go, they should impose a 2 grid position penalty
Implementing this would be easy now that there are no more fuel strategies... Just give up positions from where you were at the time the violation occured.

Last edited by Ramos; 05-19-2010 at 02:03 PM..
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      05-19-2010, 02:11 PM   #121
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However, current possible penalties doesn't demote track position (except 5 grid penalty on next race or 10 grid spot for an engine change etc). These time-based penalty are based on a drive through penalty or 10-second stop and go penalty. Which demotes you track position depends on race condition.

These things will not change until there's a change in regulation soon.

And I do not think the stewards have the flexibility to pick or "tailor" a penalty that fits the crime.
They can only pick one of the three possible penalties written in the sporting regulation.

-A drive through penalty. (which equals a 20 second time penalty if the race ended)
-10 second stop and go penalty (i guess it'll be 30 second time penalty if the race ended)
-5 spot grid penalty towards the next race.

Normally the stewards will pick the first two if the violation affected the race result.
If the violation ended in crash (Lewis Hamilton in Canadian GP 2008), stewards will give a spot penalty towards the next race (French GP 2008).
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      05-19-2010, 06:27 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
I don't understand why this is even being discussed. He violated a rule and was penalized. It's MSC's responsibility to know the rules. This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with a 15yr old grudge between the two. The rule is so clear that to not penalize him would have been an abortion of justice.
Yeah the rule was SO clear that the corner workers were waving green flags.
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      05-19-2010, 06:36 PM   #123
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Mercedes didn't appeal because they sent a radio messsage to their drivers to resume racing after the line. It's their job to know the rules, however new. So they don't have a case. Michael has a PERSONAL case because he was told by his team to race (it's their job to know) and he saw green flags. So please, everybody, let's face the fact that Michael did nothing wrong. In fact, it showed his skills... he didn't pass an HRT, he passed Alonso in a freaking fast car around that track. That said, the stewards can not touch their heart in the light of it being MSC and revert the penatly if MB blatantly ignored the rules. Imagine that, everybody would be saying that they're favouring the old champion. Not that I wouldn't want him to do well... but let's be impartial. The green flags shouldn't have been waived... but I have no idea what the procedure is for when track marshalls make mistakes like that. Seemigly not reversing the penalties, though... so the big loser here is MSC and, well, his fans. Both his team and the track marshalls (his only 2 sources of information while out there) let him down.
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      05-19-2010, 06:54 PM   #124
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How does it take skill when he was racing someone who wasn't racing him?

He cheated, as he always does, and got caught. No more free rides for Schumi.
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      05-19-2010, 07:16 PM   #125
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How does it take skill when he was racing someone who wasn't racing him?

He cheated, as he always does, and got caught. No more free rides for Schumi.


Let's NOT go there...

this time he was receiving incorrect information that his instinct made him overtook Alonso.

I wasn't saying the penalty and the decision is clear cut correct, but nonetheless, he did broke the rule.
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      05-19-2010, 07:17 PM   #126
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I'm sure if Schumi saw a yellow flag kept waving, this wouldn't be happen at all.

Its just too bad.
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      05-19-2010, 07:44 PM   #127
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I wouldn't put it past Alonso that he actually backed off and purposely "invited" Schumi to make the move knowing that Schumi would get penalized.... That dude is that LOW morally... (His Mclaren days, his involvment in Spy gate and how he ratted out his own team to protect himself, his involvment in Crash Gate and how he knew about the plan the whole time.. His record speaks for itself, if there is a cheater out there, it's not MS)
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      05-19-2010, 08:28 PM   #128
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oh dear gawd....
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      05-20-2010, 12:52 AM   #129
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Dare you to try and defend Mr. Alonso :-) Go ahead try !!
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      05-20-2010, 12:59 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
I wouldn't put it past Alonso that he actually backed off and purposely "invited" Schumi to make the move knowing that Schumi would get penalized.... That dude is that LOW morally... (His Mclaren days, his involvment in Spy gate and how he ratted out his own team to protect himself, his involvment in Crash Gate and how he knew about the plan the whole time.. His record speaks for itself, if there is a cheater out there, it's not MS)
Fuking crap....and I was so hoping to stay out of this meaningless discussion. But no...leave it to Ramos to say something completely retarded. First of all....there is no evidence that Alonso knew anything about Crash Gate. Second, who the f**k are u...the magical mind reading swami??? Yes...Alonso was plotting all along to bait MSC into an insignificant move to overtake him. Fu**ing brilliant strategy and thinking....you are a true F1 mastermind... Third...Alsonso is easily the most talented driver in the field for at least the past three seasons. Stop hating. I think in the future if you limit your responses to less than 5 words it will help keep you from shoving your foot down your throat.
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      05-20-2010, 01:28 AM   #131
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Of all the teams with cars on the track, the only member of the only team who got this supposed bad information was the a driver with a long and storied history of being a cheat.

For example, Ferrari knew exactly what the situation was and they let Alonso know -

Quote:
"The team told me over radio that we could not overtake," he told spox.com. "I wanted to attack Lewis Hamilton, but I was forbidden by the team to do it. The fact that Michael went ahead to pass me did not surprise me."

Alonso, who finished the race in sixth place following Schumacher's penalty, says there was never any doubt that the German would be punished.

"I was calm and that was later confirmed by the stewards, who put things right," he wrote in his Ferrari blog.
Screwmacher's greatest hits...






Last edited by FStop7; 05-20-2010 at 01:34 AM..
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      05-20-2010, 10:22 AM   #132
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