[harvs43]

Originally Posted by Mrklaw

They're not making anything difficult. Their position is pretty simple. They can't give us full access to the market with no freedom of movement, no paying in to the EU funds etc - otherwise why wouldn't every other EU country follow suit?

It us that apparantly wants to leave, even though we benefit from subsidies, we benefit from available workers (and can put a brake on if we want to stop 'johnny foreigner' even though the government has never used it), we gain trade without tariffs and additional costs, we kept the pound, we have a veto against anything we don't like, we have a huge services industry that has free access to Europe.

The tories are supposed to be the party of the economy yet leaving the EU is an almighty screw up economically. and for what? slightly more people that voted wanted to leave than didn't - but still a minority of those qualified to vote and a significant minority of the population. And even then nobody had to give a reason why they wanted to leave - yet the government is happy to put words in their mouths and negotiate some nebulous deal that is basically impossible to actually cover off all leave voters' intentions.

This is the biggest screw up I've ever witnessed in this country and I'm really sorry for my kids that will have to suffer because of it.

Originally Posted by Mrklaw

They're not making anything difficult. Their position is pretty simple. They can't give us full access to the market with no freedom of movement, no paying in to the EU funds etc - otherwise why wouldn't every other EU country follow suit?

It us that apparantly wants to leave, even though we benefit from subsidies, we benefit from available workers (and can put a brake on if we want to stop 'johnny foreigner' even though the government has never used it), we gain trade without tariffs and additional costs, we kept the pound, we have a veto against anything we don't like, we have a huge services industry that has free access to Europe.

The tories are supposed to be the party of the economy yet leaving the EU is an almighty screw up economically. and for what? slightly more people that voted wanted to leave than didn't - but still a minority of those qualified to vote and a significant minority of the population. And even then nobody had to give a reason why they wanted to leave - yet the government is happy to put words in their mouths and negotiate some nebulous deal that is basically impossible to actually cover off all leave voters' intentions.

This is the biggest screw up I've ever witnessed in this country and I'm really sorry for my kids that will have to suffer because of it.

Well said!!!!

Let's hope the impending no vote in the commons drives a second referendum, no other nation would have such a vote that could have potentially hinged in the vote of a single person, totally bonkers.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

5 year

So basically everyone in Europe (UK included) are getting pooer whilst the rest of the world ($ linked currencies) are doing better.

Good news for Europe than .

[ByTheSea]

Meanwhile in the world of cars...

[MarkAndrew]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I suspect you are wrong. If we want their cars we'll have to show them our money. Not like there's much viable UK completion.

Everyone thinks that German manufacturers, particularly car makers, are going to apply some pressure to the EU. Pigs might fly.

I think you're missing the point on kids. Kids become adults eventually and have the same concerns as you now. Presumably you were a child once?

I was a kid once and we were in the Common Market, it worked pretty well and the we got sucked into the EU and it all went tits up!
There is no justification for the UK to be ruled by Brussels or for our legal system to be overruled by unelected Eurocrats.
Kids will be far better off out of the EU which is a sinking ship that cant even get its own accounts signed off because its so bent!

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

So basically everyone in Europe (UK included) are getting pooer whilst the rest of the world ($ linked currencies) are doing better.

Good news for Europe than .

I saw Sterling returning to historical values vs the Euro in those charts which is why I used 5 years instead of 2 year chart which would look misleading.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrew

I was a kid once and we were in the Common Market, it worked pretty well and the we got sucked into the EU and it all went tits up!
There is no justification for the UK to be ruled by Brussels or for our legal system to be overruled by unelected Eurocrats.
Kids will be far better off out of the EU which is a sinking ship that cant even get its own accounts signed off because its so bent!

Oh yes, I can see what a great job our policiticians are doing with our country right now, what with Brexit, education, the NHS, the police etc etc.

That pot of gold at the end of the rainbow doesn't really exist, never has.

[TouringPleb]

Originally Posted by ossi1

I read somewhere that BMW and Mercedes have enough margin in their prices to deal with it.

Bearing in mind how big a market the UK is for the Germans, I'm struggling why Merkel is hanging on the coat tails of Juncker in making this whole thing so bloody difficult and insisting there will be no renegotiation etc. Lost UK car sales would have a significant Impact on the German car Industry and its 800,000 workforce.

That said, I have no particular brand loyalty and without doubt someone else would try and fill their boots.

I think you are overstating the importance of the UK car market to BMW/Merc/Audi etc. We may still be the 4-5th biggest market for them but the numbers are dwarfed by what they sell in the States and China. In a couple of months in China they sell what BMW GB sell in a year.

Any losses to the German manufactures from Brexit will easily be absorbed elsewhere.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by TouringPleb

I think you are overstating the importance of the UK car market to BMW/Merc/Audi etc. We may still be the 4-5th biggest market for them but the numbers are dwarfed by what they sell in the States and China. In a couple of months in China they sell what BMW GB sell in a year.

Any losses to the German manufactures from Brexit will easily be absorbed elsewhere.

.....this needs challenging.

Car companies are flat out promoting in all countries. So it isn't like the cars will be sold elsewhere instead. That would only be the case if production was limiting sales. It isn't.

BMW UK market.....the U.K. market was nearly as large, number of units sold as the whole of North America. BMW (and others) are price squeezed in places like NA. So profits per unit are down, therefore revenue is way down. We are still of more value than the whole of Canada and US put together. I won't mention the waves Trump is causing with his threats on Eu/US trade. It could be NA market becomes significantly smaller for Euro car manufacturers.

China? It's all good and well selling cars or any produce to China, but there is a very inconvenient catch.....you cannot bring that money out of China. They have strong flow of currency limits. Not a particularly lucrative thing selling cars and having to invest the capital in a foreign country.

Volume. Car production is about paying an overhead, we are talking massive fixed costs. Drop volume by even 5% and you screw your whole pricing model. Prices go up on all cars no matter where sold by 5% of the overhead contribution, which proves them higher against local competitors and slows demand even further.

As a result, the European car producers will be exceptionally keen to see the U.K. market stay as healthy as it is.

As always in business, it is paramount to maintain a healthy 'home market'. UK is part of that for Europe.....and they are for us.

Sign a goddam deal

[TouringPleb]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

.....this needs challenging.

Car companies are flat out promoting in all countries. So it isn't like the cars will be sold elsewhere instead. That would only be the case if production was limiting sales. It isn't.

BMW UK market.....the U.K. market was nearly as large, number of units sold as the whole of North America. BMW (and others) are price squeezed in places like NA. So profits per unit are down, therefore revenue is way down. We are still of more value than the whole of Canada and US put together. I won't mention the waves Trump is causing with his threats on Eu/US trade. It could be NA market becomes significantly smaller for Euro car manufacturers.

China? It's all good and well selling cars or any produce to China, but there is a very inconvenient catch.....you cannot bring that money out of China. They have strong flow of currency limits. Not a particularly lucrative thing selling cars and having to invest the capital in a foreign country.

Volume. Car production is about paying an overhead, we are talking massive fixed costs. Drop volume by even 5% and you screw your whole pricing model. Prices go up on all cars no matter where sold by 5% of the overhead contribution, which proves them higher against local competitors and slows demand even further.

As a result, the European car producers will be exceptionally keen to see the U.K. market stay as healthy as it is.

As always in business, it is paramount to maintain a healthy 'home market'. UK is part of that for Europe.....and they are for us.

Sign a goddam deal

From figures I can find BMW sold 305,000 cars in North America in 2017 and 175,000 in the UK.

I can't find figures that break down model sales but how many UK sales are 114/116/118 and 316/318/320 to fleets with minimum options? Quite a percentage I'd guess. I appreciate the US car market is different to ours and how they 'buy' cars but from what I've seen Americans tend to like their cars pretty well specc'd which would have higher margins and they don't sell the 1 series there.

However I absolutely agree that we need to sign a deal and a hard Brexit will favour no-one apart from Mogg and his merry band of hard Brexiters.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

.....this needs challenging.

Car companies are flat out promoting in all countries. So it isn't like the cars will be sold elsewhere instead. That would only be the case if production was limiting sales. It isn't.

BMW UK market.....the U.K. market was nearly as large, number of units sold as the whole of North America. BMW (and others) are price squeezed in places like NA. So profits per unit are down, therefore revenue is way down. We are still of more value than the whole of Canada and US put together. I won't mention the waves Trump is causing with his threats on Eu/US trade. It could be NA market becomes significantly smaller for Euro car manufacturers.

China? It's all good and well selling cars or any produce to China, but there is a very inconvenient catch.....you cannot bring that money out of China. They have strong flow of currency limits. Not a particularly lucrative thing selling cars and having to invest the capital in a foreign country.

Volume. Car production is about paying an overhead, we are talking massive fixed costs. Drop volume by even 5% and you screw your whole pricing model. Prices go up on all cars no matter where sold by 5% of the overhead contribution, which proves them higher against local competitors and slows demand even further.

As a result, the European car producers will be exceptionally keen to see the U.K. market stay as healthy as it is.

As always in business, it is paramount to maintain a healthy 'home market'. UK is part of that for Europe.....and they are for us.

Sign a goddam deal

All that is great and I agree in part, but the EU negotiators won't be swayed by that. The future of the EU as an entity is more important than BMW. Plus, the manufacturers themselves are staying very quiet on this, it's just people in the UK saying how they'll apply pressure. It seems highly unlikely that they'll say anything at this point.

Plus, I don't think an import tax on will make that much difference to luxury goods anyway. The recession didn't really make that much difference. If BMW/Audi/Merc are all affected the same, then it'll make very little difference, people will still buy.

The only people it will hurt is the UK consumer, so everyone on here.

And before someone say again, well buy a Jag instead, go try one, they're pretty shit right now. Ugly and miles behind tech wise.

[Wills2]

Under WTO we can remove tariffs on goods that we do not want to have them applied to, however we have to do that for all countries supplying those goods.

So it's not correct to say that certain WTO tariffs have to be applied (the 10% tariff on cars that's being discussed) this was outlined on CH4 news tonight by Helia Ebrahimi (fabulous looking woman ) but of course that would be a unilateral action and hurt our negotiating position with other countries when it came to doing other trade deals if we've already lowered the barriers before hand.

[1 AKY]

BTW, there is already a Brexit discussion in the UK - Off Topic section.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by 1 AKY

BTW, there is already a Brexit discussion in the UK - Off Topic section.

We know.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

BMW UK market.....the U.K. market was nearly as large, number of units sold as the whole of North America. BMW (and others) are price squeezed in places like NA. So profits per unit are down, therefore revenue is way down. We are still of more value than the whole of Canada and US put together.

I challenge you to post any links from legitimate sites the corroborate either of those statements with facts.

Furthermore, as the value of the USD rises against the Euro and Pound, BMW would much rather be receiving USD.

And then when one looks how parts in the USA are almost 100% higher than in the EU...and Canada is well over 100%.