[Londoner]

So you requested a full refund in writing 48 hours after purchase?

[drykoke]

Originally Posted by Londoner

This must be a Cat S/N surely. Assuming so then yes - a trader has a legal obligation to make clear in the ad that the car is crash damned...Professional car vendors and traders must state whether a car has been previously written-off.[/I]

I completely agree with everything you say BUT I couldn't figure out why you feel that the BMW with the weird bonnet must have been a Cat S/N.

The Golf isn't the one that is being disputed with the Honda dealership.

Regarding your other question, the poster has not mentioned anything about an independent inspection report or submission of a written rejection. From the posts, it appears that everything has been verbal thus far, including the all too common dealer run-around where the buyer is fobbed off with various placatory words and excuses, but nothing concrete is in writing.

[drykoke]

Originally Posted by Armaan

If a fault develops, they have an opportunity to fix it once before you can reject it - in this case he's just trying to BS you…it's not as described and therefore you can reject it on that basis.

Typical sales tact.

Armaan

I agree with everything that you say. My only caution is that us punters on the forum have not seen the actual wording of the advert. Nor do we know what the dealer disclosed verbally, given that the car had no service history on Idrive since ?2019, and the bonnet needed respraying.
This is where the dealer and car buyer end up in dispute regarding the exact meanings of 'unsatisfactory quality' or 'as described'.

[Armaan]

Originally Posted by drykoke

I agree with everything that you say. My only caution is that us punters on the forum have not seen the actual wording of the advert. Nor do we know what the dealer disclosed verbally, given that the car had no service history on Idrive since ?2019, and the bonnet needed respraying.
This is where the dealer and car buyer end up in dispute regarding the exact meanings of 'unsatisfactory quality' or 'as described'.

My understanding is that the 'short-term right to reject rule' under the UK consumer act 2015 applies here:

The fault was clearly visible on the walk-around video and not declared by the dealership prior to sale, given the OPs commentary.

He can therefore reject it by law…but they can deduct reasonable wear and tear - it's only been a week!

Longer than 30 days and there could be some dispute I'd agree, but luckily OP is in a strong position.

Armaan

[drykoke]

Originally Posted by Armaan

The fault was clearly visible on the walk-around video and not declared by the dealership prior to sale, given the OPs commentary.

Armaan

I fully agree with you about the rules but neither you nor I have seen the video. It also clouds the case that after viewing the video, the purchaser asked the dealer to respray the bonnet, but did not bring up the 'clearly visible' fault on the same body part.

This car has undoubtedly got several red flags about it, and the dealer has failed to do a comprehensive check.
Buyer beware!

[martin10chk]

Originally Posted by Londoner

This must be a Cat S/N surely. Assuming so then yes - a trader has a legal obligation to make clear in the ad that the car is crash damned. See below from the AA website.

So (assuming it wasn't detailed in the ad) this would 100% be in breach of trade description act - the car is worth less as a result of even a Cat N declaration. Am sure Honda will refund you, they're just trying it on for a few days, in the hope you'll accept a repair.

You do have the option of negotiating - repair to high standard AND knock off say...3k and you'll take the car.

https://www.theaa.com/car-insurance/...age-categories

Can I check if a second-hand car has ever been damaged to a Cat C or Cat D (S and N) level?

Yes, you can, and it's always good to be aware of all the facts about a vehicle before buying. Professional car vendors and traders must state whether a car has been previously written-off.

If it were Cat S or N it would have been picked up by dealer - unless they are truly incompetent. There is nothing in that damage that appears 'write-off' material. Car has had a bump and its been repaired badly. Maybe someone didn't want to claim in insurance. But OP - you have the absolute right to reject this car. Your grounds for doing this is that the vehicle sold is "not of satisfactory quality". You have a reasonable expectation that a prestige car of this age sold by a qualified car dealer should be straight and true and not subject to shoddy repairs. The dealer may try (as they have) to offer to rectify it. But it is your right to reject it and you have done exactly the right thing and made it clear that you wish to exercise that right. As soon as someone senior enough to authorise it actually can be bothered to turn up to work I am sure that is what they will conclude.

[drykoke]

There is some very useful advice for damaged used car buyers on the Car Expert website if the dealer is evasive:

https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/does-...eclare-damage/

But I’ve already bought the car!

"If you’ve already bought your car and only noticed afterwards that there is evidence of damage and repair, you’re on the back foot in terms of any dispute with the car dealer. Once you hand over your money and take possession of the vehicle, you’re accepting it as-is unless you can prove that you’ve been treated unfairly in the eyes of the law.

Generally speaking, your chances of getting a refund or some form of compensation are going to be slim unless you have overwhelming proof that you’ve been deceived. Make sure you gather up whatever documentation you have to support your case. Ideally, you want a copy of the original advertisement for the vehicle – especially if it mentions that the vehicle is in “excellent condition” or something similar. If you have any correspondence with the dealer, dig that out as well.

You may also want a written report from a third-party body shop or garage to declare that, in their opinion, the car was clearly repaired and the damage would certainly have happened before you bought it.

If you have all of that information, you might have a reasonable chance of getting some redress. Legal assistance will help you, as a lawyer will almost certainly be able to make a better legal argument than you will. It doesn’t matter how obvious it looks to you, it has to be obvious according to the letter of the law."

[J3OEF]

Originally Posted by drykoke

I agree with everything that you say. My only caution is that us punters on the forum have not seen the actual wording of the advert. Nor do we know what the dealer disclosed verbally, given that the car had no service history on Idrive since ?2019, and the bonnet needed respraying.
This is where the dealer and car buyer end up in dispute regarding the exact meanings of 'unsatisfactory quality' or 'as described'.

The advert is standard wording where dealers list the options. There was no major write up detailing anything about the car.

Originally Posted by Armaan

My understanding is that the 'short-term right to reject rule' under the UK consumer act 2015 applies here:

The fault was clearly visible on the walk-around video and not declared by the dealership prior to sale, given the OPs commentary.

He can therefore reject it by law…but they can deduct reasonable wear and tear - it's only been a week!

Longer than 30 days and there could be some dispute I'd agree, but luckily OP is in a strong position.

Armaan

Reasonable wear and tear in a week is surely minimal? I think I did around 100 miles and some taking the car back to them. There was also over half a tank of fuel when I left it with them.

Originally Posted by drykoke

I fully agree with you about the rules but neither you nor I have seen the video. It also clouds the case that after viewing the video, the purchaser asked the dealer to respray the bonnet, but did not bring up the 'clearly visible' fault on the same body part.

This car has undoubtedly got several red flags about it, and the dealer has failed to do a comprehensive check.
Buyer beware!

I didn’t request they respray the bonnet, they made a point in the walk around video of pointing out stone chips and said they would get that sorted for me at the body shop.

The guy I knew who come round and owns his own body/paint shop said they have simply filled the chips in and Sprayed/blended in that area albeit very poorly.

Originally Posted by martin10chk

If it were Cat S or N it would have been picked up by dealer - unless they are truly incompetent. There is nothing in that damage that appears 'write-off' material. Car has had a bump and its been repaired badly. Maybe someone didn't want to claim in insurance. But OP - you have the absolute right to reject this car. Your grounds for doing this is that the vehicle sold is "not of satisfactory quality". You have a reasonable expectation that a prestige car of this age sold by a qualified car dealer should be straight and true and not subject to shoddy repairs. The dealer may try (as they have) to offer to rectify it. But it is your right to reject it and you have done exactly the right thing and made it clear that you wish to exercise that right. As soon as someone senior enough to authorise it actually can be bothered to turn up to work I am sure that is what they will conclude.

My thoughts are the same re it being repaired but not via insurance. Like I have said all along, if the advert mentioned it or they made me aware then I understand and know what I have purchased. But that wasn’t the case and when I found out the issues I let them know and proceeded from there.

I’m wondering if I should ring the head office today and ask to put a complaint in or just wait till Tuesday? Which will no doubt drag on again.

Originally Posted by drykoke

There is some very useful advice for damaged used car buyers on the Car Expert website if the dealer is evasive:

https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/does-...eclare-damage/

But I’ve already bought the car!

"If you’ve already bought your car and only noticed afterwards that there is evidence of damage and repair, you’re on the back foot in terms of any dispute with the car dealer. Once you hand over your money and take possession of the vehicle, you’re accepting it as-is unless you can prove that you’ve been treated unfairly in the eyes of the law.

Generally speaking, your chances of getting a refund or some form of compensation are going to be slim unless you have overwhelming proof that you’ve been deceived. Make sure you gather up whatever documentation you have to support your case. Ideally, you want a copy of the original advertisement for the vehicle – especially if it mentions that the vehicle is in “excellent condition” or something similar. If you have any correspondence with the dealer, dig that out as well.

You may also want a written report from a third-party body shop or garage to declare that, in their opinion, the car was clearly repaired and the damage would certainly have happened before you bought it.

If you have all of that information, you might have a reasonable chance of getting some redress. Legal assistance will help you, as a lawyer will almost certainly be able to make a better legal argument than you will. It doesn’t matter how obvious it looks to you, it has to be obvious according to the letter of the law."

Thanks for that. Some very useful stuff

[Pond]

Originally Posted by J3OEF

I’m wondering if I should ring the head office today and ask to put a complaint in or just wait till Tuesday? Which will no doubt drag on again.

Being pro-active will probably get it sorted sooner IMHO.
They have fobbed you off enough. As it stands right now, they have your money, your car, the keys and the paperwork.
That is not the best position for you to be in TBH.

There is little incentive as it stands for them to sort it out anytime soon.

Has any of the conversations with them been via email? If it's all been by phone I would be very careful, as there is no time-line proof.

[J3OEF]

Originally Posted by Pond

Being pro-active will probably get it sorted sooner IMHO.
They have fobbed you off enough. As it stands right now, they have your money, your car, the keys and the paperwork.
That is not the best position for you to be in TBH.

There is little incentive as it stands for them to sort it out anytime soon.

Has any of the conversations with them been via email? If it's all been by phone I would be very careful, as there is no time-line proof.

There is a small email trail where I am asking about the full service being done etc and also an email saying I am not happy with the car after discovering what I believe is accident damage. Most other stuff has been done via the phone and in person.

[J3OEF]

Have sent an email over this afternoon along with some screenshots of my phone calls to them on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.

I have again reiterated that I do not want the car and will only accept a refund. I have also asked for a quick resolution as am I now at a loss due to my wife’s car being in an unfortunate shunt yesterday and we have various appointments to attend with the little one so I do not need anymore stress with it all.

I also pointed out should this not be resolved quickly or they contact me then I will contact the Ombudsman for some advice re the situation.

[Mcdaddy]

Originally Posted by martin10chk

If it were Cat S or N it would have been picked up by dealer - unless they are truly incompetent. There is nothing in that damage that appears 'write-off' material. Car has had a bump and its been repaired badly. Maybe someone didn't want to claim in insurance. But OP - you have the absolute right to reject this car. Your grounds for doing this is that the vehicle sold is "not of satisfactory quality". You have a reasonable expectation that a prestige car of this age sold by a qualified car dealer should be straight and true and not subject to shoddy repairs. The dealer may try (as they have) to offer to rectify it. But it is your right to reject it and you have done exactly the right thing and made it clear that you wish to exercise that right. As soon as someone senior enough to authorise it actually can be bothered to turn up to work I am sure that is what they will conclude.

Originally Posted by drykoke

There is some very useful advice for damaged used car buyers on the Car Expert website if the dealer is evasive:

https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/does-seller-declare-damage/

But I’ve already bought the car!

"[I]If you’ve already bought your car and only noticed afterwards that there is evidence of damage and repair, you’re on the back foot in terms of any dispute with the car dealer. Once you hand over your money and take possession of the vehicle, you’re accepting it as-is unless you can prove that you’ve been treated unfairly in the eyes of the law.

Generally speaking, your chances of getting a refund or some form of compensation are going to be slim unless you have overwhelming proof that you’ve been deceived. Make sure you gather up whatever documentation you have to support your case. Ideally, you want a copy of the original advertisement for the vehicle – especially if it mentions that the vehicle is in “excellent condition” or something similar. If you have any correspondence with the dealer, dig that out as well.

You may also want a written report from a third-party body shop or garage to declare that, in their opinion, the car was clearly repaired and the damage would certainly have happened before you bought it.

If you have all of that information, you might have a reasonable chance of getting some redress. Legal assistance will help you, as a lawyer will almost certainly be able to make a better legal argument than you will. It doesn’t matter how obvious it looks to you, it has to be obvious according to the letter of the [...]

You are giving car dealers too much credit here about noticing problems with cars they take in.

I once looked at buying a 1 series from a private seller, top of the range, nothing missing from the options list. I hpi checked the cars history which threw up some discrepancies over the milage, did my own research with BMW dealerships it was shown as having services completed but never had been to them only to find that it had been clocked. I told the seller why I wasn't interested and that was that.
What do I see a few months later but the exact same car with the exact same milage for sale on Arnold Clarks forecourt. I feel sorry for whoever bought that car thinking they were getting a great deal.
My point being that most dealerships are run by people who arnt interested in anything but making a quick profit out of unsuspecting buyers whether it's done honestly or not

[J3OEF]

Finally some good news after Fridays horror!!!

My email seemed to do the trick after trying to bluff me with his false claims. He spoke to his boss, even though he is the boss!!!

[drykoke]

Good result, well done.

[breathe3asy]

Originally Posted by J3OEF

Finally some good news after Fridays horror!!!

My email seemed to do the trick after trying to bluff me with his false claims. He spoke to his boss, even though he is the boss!!!

I hope you can relax now bud, take your time with the next purchase, car shopping is fun

[Armaan]

Originally Posted by J3OEF

Finally some good news after Fridays horror!!!

My email seemed to do the trick after trying to bluff me with his false claims. He spoke to his boss, even though he is the boss!!!

Great result. Important thing is to learn the lesson and you'll find a good one I'm sure…and now appreciate it more!

Armaan

[sensible]

Great result. A sigh of relief I'm sure.

[Pond]

Hold your horses there fellas. As of the last post, he hadn't actually got his money back.

The message doesn't say when, either!

[J3OEF]

Money received back into the account this afternoon. Horror show over and lesson learned!

Now to find another 440i

[Pond]

Originally Posted by J3OEF

Money received back into the account this afternoon. Horror show over and lesson learned!

Now to find another 440i

Well done. That must be a relief.

Don't suppose a convertible would be of interest? I know of a really good one!

[J3OEF]

Originally Posted by Pond

Well done. That must be a relief.

Don't suppose a convertible would be of interest? I know of a really good one!

Yes a relief indeed! Was very much panic stations at one point.

Convertible? No chance! The whole reason I changed from a M235i to a 440i GC was for more room and 4 doors due to the little one coming along!

In an ideal world I would of kept what I had :-)

[Mo1995]

Originally Posted by Pond

Well done. That must be a relief.

Don't suppose a convertible would be of interest? I know of a really good one!

Are you planning to move on your 440i already!?