[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by atomic335

Like Tengocity I too have the ACS springs, Birds ARB's and MPSS.

As it stands at the moment I'm quite happy with the ride and its really about as good as its going to get (always a compromise between comfort and handling) without going for a full coilover like and key to that is one that’s been correctly developed on both a chassis dynamometer and on the road with the correct valve, bump, rebound and spring ratio. The ride is pretty good considering its essentially a mix of components which were never designed or tested to work together which is exactly the sort of thing you are paying for when you buy an Alpina for example as those they use different springs and ARB's to stock BMW along with reprogrammed adaptive dampers.

I think one the key decisions I made was to stay with the 18" wheels as these provide a more supple ride than the 19's and with the roads in and around W.Yorks trust me you want supple as I been to banana republics with better roads.

Another point you made was the brakes, again I too found these lacking, mine like Tengocity's are the MSport 370mm. I changed out the lines to the calipers to ones from HEL Performance and the fluid to Endless RF-650 (which is a higher viscocity than the low viscosity fluid recommended by BMW), I also changed out the pads (front & rear) for Project Mu HC+ pads. These changes made a welcome improvement.

I'm not alone! Where have you been hiding?!

Tell me more about the pads please?

[atomic335]

Pads are very good, got them from Apex Performance in Switzerland (www.apex-performance.ch) when I went on a little watch buying trip. They provide much more feel than oem, less dust and are not noisy. They'll also take much more heat, not had any fade yet. The change of fluid I think made a big improvement but as I carried out all the changes to the brakes at the same time I cannot quantify which made the biggest single improvement.

[Tengocity]

These:

http://www.apex-performance.ch/en/56...f30f31f34.html

How are they from cold?

I like the sound of them.. what made you go for these?

[atomic335]

Yes Z527-HCP front and Z429-HCP rear

http://www.apex-performance.ch/en/56...f30f31f34.html
http://www.apex-performance.ch/en/56...f30f31f34.html

From cold they are fine, better than oem.

Chose these becasue I've used them before on other cars and was happy with them and knew they would be an improvment over the std BMW ones and they were readily available, and about 2/3rds the cost of endless MX72, which I have also used before and found to be good.

[Nick the Greek]

Norfolk.

The only county in the cuntry where your sister can be your mothers uncles father's brothers best man's niece...

Unless you're a hog.

In which case your fair game.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by atomic335

Yes Z527-HCP front and Z429-HCP rear

http://www.apex-performance.ch/en/56...f30f31f34.html
http://www.apex-performance.ch/en/56...f30f31f34.html

From cold they are fine, better than oem.

Chose these becasue I've used them before on other cars and was happy with them and knew they would be an improvment over the std BMW ones and they were readily available, and about 2/3rds the cost of endless MX72, which I have also used before and found to be good.

Very tempted! Have you tried them on track by any chance?
Where do you notice the improvement- initial bite and feel?

Considering any other mods?

[atomic335]

No not tried them on track in the BM, I'm fortunate enough to have a few track toys and a couple of out and out race cars all of which are using various Pagid pads. The HC+ have more initial bite and feel right from the beginning of the pedal travel, though I'm attributing some of thats to the fluid because of the higher viscocity. I personally like pads with a high initial torque and would like to try Pagid RS15's on the BM, ideal pads for me on this car have to have a initial friction of at least 0.42μ and as the PMU HC+ are 0.43～0.58μ then they fit the bill and have so far proven to be a worthy upgrade.

Other mods in the near future maybe the Birds remap, though after seeing that the LCI is now offered with Alcantara...who knows as I really wanted that over leather as I hate leather seats and I kicked up a big stink with both the dealer and BMW UK over it not being offered in the UK but was std fair in europe but then there is also the new XE so not sure yet.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by atomic335

No not tried them on track in the BM, I'm fortunate enough to have a few track toys and a couple of out and out race cars all of which are using various Pagid pads.

Other mods in the near future maybe the Birds remap, though after seeing that the LCI is now offered with Alcantara...who knows as I really wanted that over leather as I hate leather seats and I kicked up a big stink with both the dealer and BMW UK over it not being offered in the UK but was std fair in europe.

The remap by Quantum, next door to Kevin? I went out in the development car- definitely faster than mine! However, they are charging well over £2k for that remap

There are other places that can offer the same power for about a fifth the price so curious as to why you would go there?

[teaston]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

These:

http://www.apex-performance.ch/en/56...f30f31f34.html

How are they from cold?

I like the sound of them.. what made you go for these?

£200 for brake pads!

Holy shiiiit!

[Watsey]

Cheers guys for your feedback and suggestions. ACS + Birds ARBs + MPSS seems to be a good combination for the money.

@Atomic - I hadn't found many options for pads, so the info re Apex is very useful. I'll look into those, maybe as part of a more comprehensive brake upgrade (currently 330mm front discs and single piston calipers, ie not even M Sport) to provide the performance and confidence I'm looking for.

Useful stuff.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Cheers guys for your feedback and suggestions. ACS + Birds ARBs + MPSS seems to be a good combination for the money.

@Atomic - I hadn't found many options for pads, so the info re Apex is very useful. I'll look into those, maybe as part of a more comprehensive brake upgrade (currently 330mm front discs and single piston calipers, ie not even M Sport) to provide the performance and confidence I'm looking for.

Useful stuff.

If I had standard brakes then I think I'd rather buy a proper big brake kit than pay for the M performance ones.

[atomic335]

I've had a few Alcon kits in the past, and one thing you will find is the road kits they dont have dust boots on the pistons as they are derived from thier motorsport calipers and nore do they tend to have heavy duty anti corrosion paint, just anodising which is okay but not the best when having to cope with road salt etc. You would be better off going for either AP Racing or Performance Friction. I've been very please with the two performance friction kits I've used and never had any complaints with any of the AP's either. Even when I've used AP calipers I've tended to replace the discs with PF ones when they have worn out as they are very good quality castings.

You may find this interesting.
http://www.pfc.parts/bmw-m235i-racing/
"A trackday / race brake kit has been developed from this system for production BMW 235i models. Please contact PFC Europe for details."

[Watsey]

Thanks Atomic - will add to my research.

[Watsey]

Thought the following update/review might be of interest.

Terry (Tengocity) and I met up last night so that I could try his suspension setup. We also twigged that we knew each other when working at the same company, so also had the chance to reconnect.

A quick summary of the cars :

Mine : F31 330sD, 2012, 37K miles, stock engine, stock brakes (sliding calipers and single pistons all round, 330mm discs on the front), BMW adaptive dampers, M Sport suspension, 19" rims, Bridgestone Potenza run flats (225 fronts; 255 rears).

Terry : 335xD, 2013 (I think), 42K miles, DMS remap, M Performance brakes all round (fixed callipers, 4 piston fronts, 2 piston rears, 370mm discs front), BMW adaptive dampers, ACS springs, Birds ARBs, 19" rims, Michelin Pilot Super Sports (225 fronts; 255 rears).

We RVd at a pub on a on a road that Terry knew well. Road was generally well surfaced, some scarred tarmac here and there, and some nice twisties where we could give his car a workout.

This was mainly for my benefit (cheers Terry) as improving the ride and handling of my car is my #1 objective. Here are my thoughts/conclusions :

- Ride quality : the ACS springs and MPSS make a dramatic difference. The harshness of the secondary ride is really improved, and the primary ride is nicely controlled. Comfort setting feels like Sport in mine, but more refined. I didn't notice any control problems with the BMW adaptive dampers, and for road use they felt fine to me (actually surprisingly better, working the the springs and ARBs).

- Handling : MASSIVE improvement. You can really feel the Birds ARBs keeping the car level, and understeer (a huge problem in my car) is all but gone. Terry's car feels very neutral (a tad understeer, but just enough to stop the car feeling prone to snap-oversteer) - I really liked it. At speed the car is very controlled, and moving up to Sport+ does nothing to unsettle the drivability and confidence.

- Grip : compared to the Bridgestones, which IMO are dreadful even for RFTs, the MPSS provides a great combination of grip, stability, ride quality and balance. The turn-in is crisp, and they don't wash-out - very confidence-insipiring.

Overall conclusions regarding ACS springs + Birds ARBs + adapative dampers + MPSS = a great setup, and ideally suited to those looking for a 'fast road' orientated car. My decision is made

- Braking : before I drove his car Terry asked me to assess the brakes. I've read a lot of mixed reviews/opinions regarding the BMW M Performance brake upgrade, but this was the first time I'd driven with them. In short, they were a disappointment (sorry Terry, but I think we're on the same page here). Cold bite is surprisingly poor, the brake pedal goes long (even though Terry has had braided lines fitted) and I was hoping they would stop the car dead (so to speak) but this wasn't the case. Feel through the pedal was also lacking, compared to my expectations. Maybe the brakes need heat in them, and maybe different pads would help. It doesn't explain the soft and long pedal travel though - maybe the BMW Brembos aren't ideally configured in terms of piston volumes and valving. Personally I won't be spending my money on that upgrade.
On the run home I did a couple of maximum retardation stops from speed and found the initial bite from the stock brakes was better, pedal was firmer, and outright stopping power was not far off the M Performance setup. Being able to get to full brake pressure quickly no doubt has a positive effect here.

- Power : the DMS remap on the 335D is excellent; very smooth and crisp all the way through the rev range; no sense that the engine is struggling for airflow. It works very well. Bearing in mind there is a theoretical difference of 96bhp between the cars (335xD DMS 354 bhp Vs 330sD 258 bhp official - I've not had mine on a RR) I suggested we do a 30mph rolling start in Sport+ with both cars in 3rd, then a 3-2-1 count and full-bore acceleration run (to rule out any off-the-line traction differences that would favour the xD four wheel drive). I was interested to see if I could stay with the 335. The 335 DMS does pull away, but didn't romp away, and then we headed into the twisties - this is where the power disadvantage was plainly not the problem. I didn't have the confidence in my car to hold the same level of speed through the corners : the front end was reluctant to turn-in, substantial feeling of weight and understeer, and the poor overall control (relatively speaking) made it difficult to hold a neat line. Terry's car looked like it sailed through, and although he had driven the roads before the main factor in the speed advantage was the handling.

I have two fundamental options in terms of liberating more power from the 330sD; BMW or independent :

1. The BMW PPK option for my car (stock brakes; 330x24mm discs) includes a mandatory a front axle brake upgrade : BMW Brembo fixed calipers with 4 pistons (the same as on the M Performance system), 340x30mm discs (drilled and slotted) but which might suffer from the same lack of initial bite and the long pedal that Terry's car suffers with. Total cost quoted = <£1,600, of which ~£500 is for the brake upgrade. If they're not up to the task I can replace them without a huge loss. Even though my car only has 6 months warranty remaining, the BMK PPK does at least mean that I can buy a BMW extended warranty without quibble. As the steering rack and both front adaptive dampers have failed in the 6 months that I've owned the car, this is the likely choice and it was also good to see the results of the Surrey Rolling Road test, where the 330sD cars were generating 290-299 bhp.

2. Remap/box plus BBK (I wouldn't leave the brakes as stock). A decent BBK seems to start at ~£3K fitted, and could be overkill on a road car. Total cost could be in the region of £4K. Ouch.

Changing to a 335Xd is tempting, if not just for the extra traction (you could feel Terry's car pulling itself out of tight corners under power, whereas mine will tend to break traction on the inside rear). I'm looking into it.

Terry and I are hoping to meet up with Guy soon for a more extensive road test; a back-to-back-to-back test of standard suspension Vs ACS/Birds Vs ACS RS would be very interesting - we'll report back.

[gtsussex]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Thought the following update/review might be of interest.

Terry (Tengocity) and I met up last night so that I could try his suspension setup. We also twigged that we knew each other when working at the same company, so also had the chance to reconnect.

A quick summary of the cars :

Mine : F31 330sD, 2012, 37K miles, stock engine, stock brakes (sliding calipers and single pistons all round, 330mm discs on the front), BMW adaptive dampers, M Sport suspension, 19" rims, Bridgestone Potenza run flats (225 fronts; 255 rears).

Terry : 335xD, 2013 (I think), 42K miles, DMS remap, M Performance brakes all round (fixed callipers, 4 piston fronts, 2 piston rears, 370mm discs front), BMW adaptive dampers, ACS springs, Birds ARBs, 19" rims, Michelin Pilot Super Sports (225 fronts; 255 rears).

We RVd at a pub on a on a road that Terry knew well. Road was generally well surfaced, some scarred tarmac here and there, and some nice twisties where we could give his car a workout.

This was mainly for my benefit (cheers Terry) as improving the ride and handling of my car is my #1 objective. Here are my thoughts/conclusions :

- Ride quality : the ACS springs and MPSS make a dramatic difference. The harshness of the secondary ride is really improved, and the primary ride is nicely controlled. Comfort setting feels like Sport in mine, but more refined. I didn't notice any control problems with the BMW adaptive dampers, and for road use they felt fine to me (actually surprisingly better, working the the springs and ARBs).

- Handling : MASSIVE improvement. You can really feel the Birds ARBs keeping the car level, and understeer (a huge problem in my car) is all but gone. Terry's car feels very neutral (a tad understeer, but just enough to stop the car feeling prone to snap-oversteer) - I really liked it. At speed the car is very controlled, and moving up to Sport+ does nothing to unsettle the drivability and confidence.

- Grip : compared to the Bridgestones, which IMO are dreadful even for RFTs, the MPSS provides a great combination of grip, stability, ride quality and balance. The turn-in is crisp, and they don't wash-out - very confidence-insipiring.

Overall conclusions regarding ACS springs + Birds ARBs + adapative dampers + MPSS = a great setup, and ideally suited to those looking for a 'fast road' orientated car. My decision is made

- Braking : before I drove his car Terry asked me to assess the brakes. I've read a lot of mixed reviews/opinions regarding the BMW M Performance brake upgrade, but this was the first time I'd driven with them. In short, they were a disappointment (sorry Terry, but I think we're on the same page here). Cold bite is surprisingly poor, the brake pedal goes long (even though Terry has had braided lines fitted) and I was hoping they would stop the car dead (so to speak) but this wasn't the case. Feel through the pedal was also lacking, compared to my expectations. Maybe the brakes need heat in them, and maybe different pads would help. It doesn't explain the soft and long pedal travel though - maybe the BMW Brembos aren't ideally configured in terms of piston volumes and valving. Personally I won't be spending my money on that upgrade.
On the run home I did a couple of maximum retardation stops from speed and found the initial bite from the stock brakes was better, pedal was firmer, and outright stopping power was not far off the M Performance setup. Being able to get to full brake pressure quickly no doubt has a positive effect here.

- Power : the DMS remap on the 335D is excellent; very smooth and crisp all the way through the rev range; no sense that the engine is struggling for airflow. It works very well. Bearing in mind there is a theoretical difference of 96bhp between the cars (335xD DMS 354 bhp Vs 330sD 258 bhp official - I've not had mine on a RR) I suggested we do a 30mph rolling start in Sport+ with both cars in 3rd, then a 3-2-1 count and full-bore acceleration run (to rule out any off-the-line traction differences that would favour the xD four wheel drive). I was interested to see if I could stay with the 335. The 335 DMS does pull away, but didn't romp away, and then we headed into the twisties - this is where the power disadvantage was plainly not the problem. I didn't have the confidence in my car to hold the same level of speed through the corners : the front end was reluctant to turn-in, substantial feeling of weight and understeer, and the poor overall control (relatively speaking) made it difficult to hold a neat line. Terry's car looked like it sailed through, and although he had driven the roads before the main factor in the speed advantage was the handling.

I have two fundamental options in terms of liberating more power from the 330sD; BMW or independent :

1. The BMW PPK option for my car (stock brakes; 330x24mm discs) includes a mandatory a front axle brake upgrade : BMW Brembo fixed calipers with 4 pistons (the same as on the M Performance system), 340x30mm discs (drilled and slotted) but which might suffer from the same lack of initial bite and the long pedal that Terry's car suffers with. Total cost quoted = <£1,600, of which ~£500 is for the brake upgrade. If they're not up to the task I can replace them without a huge loss. Even though my car only has 6 months warranty remaining, the BMK PPK does at least mean that I can buy a BMW extended warranty without quibble. As the steering rack and both front adaptive dampers have failed in the 6 months that I've owned the car, this is the likely choice and it was also good to see the results of the Surrey Rolling Road test, where the 330sD cars were generating 290-299 bhp.

2. Remap/box plus BBK (I wouldn't leave the brakes as stock). A decent BBK seems to start at ~£3K fitted, and could be overkill on a road car. Total cost could be in the region of £4K. Ouch.

Changing to a 335Xd is tempting, if not just for the extra traction (you could feel Terry's car pulling itself out of tight corners under power, whereas mine will tend to break traction on the inside rear). I'm looking into it.

Terry and I are hoping to meet up with Guy soon for a more extensive road test; a back-to-back-to-back test of standard suspension Vs ACS/Birds Vs ACS RS would be very interesting - we'll report back.

Just sending Terry a text now to try and sort!!

[Lorcan]

[SkyJawa]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Braking : before I drove his car Terry asked me to assess the brakes. I've read a lot of mixed reviews/opinions regarding the BMW M Performance brake upgrade, but this was the first time I'd driven with them. In short, they were a disappointment (sorry Terry, but I think we're on the same page here). Cold bite is surprisingly poor, the brake pedal goes long (even though Terry has had braided lines fitted) and I was hoping they would stop the car dead (so to speak) but this wasn't the case. Feel through the pedal was also lacking, compared to my expectations. Maybe the brakes need heat in them, and maybe different pads would help. It doesn't explain the soft and long pedal travel though - maybe the BMW Brembos aren't ideally configured in terms of piston volumes and valving. Personally I won't be spending my money on that upgrade.
On the run home I did a couple of maximum retardation stops from speed and found the initial bite from the stock brakes was better, pedal was firmer, and outright stopping power was not far off the M Performance setup. Being able to get to full brake pressure quickly no doubt has a positive effect here.

Just as I said over our PM's mate, now you've experienced them you've summed up what I really dislike about the MPerf brakes. I expected so much more from them but they have all the attributes you mention.

To me if they could feel half way between stock and how they feel when the car has pre-armed them (in FCW mode) they'd be much better. The pedal is just not firm enough for my liking and takes a lot of travel to do anything.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Terry's car looked like it sailed through

It's the way I drive!

I wish...

Glad it was of help. Very interesting to get another perspective on them. I'm sure Guy's car is going to be another step ahead in body control, but for the public road it's a level of control I can't see myself using as I'd need to be going so fast for it to make a difference that it would seldom get used enough to justify the cost. If I did more track days in it then it may be a different story. However I reserve the right to change my mind after we meet up and do a car swap in a couple of weeks.

I don't get the brakes... from cold and pootling around they don't inspire, but with heat in them and on a spirited drive I find them much better. I really don't want to be going down the route of a BBK for a diesel estate though!

[teaston]

Imo the problem with the M Sport brakes is the pads. I have just fitted some Posi Quiet pads (made by Centric Parts who also make Stop Tech brakes) which cost £32 (£70 inc shipping) in USA and they feel much better than the BMW pads, noticeably more initial bite! And they're supposed to produce less dust too.

So if £30 pads are better than the OEM's then i bet some Stop Tech Street Performance pads (around £120 shipped) would make these brakes very decent, it's even worth a try on the single piston brakes before shelling out thousands on a big brake kit.

[dopper99]

Originally Posted by teaston

Imo the problem with the M Sport brakes is the pads. I have just fitted some Posi Quiet pads (made by Centric Parts who also make Stop Tech brakes) which cost £32 (£70 inc shipping) in USA and they feel much better than the BMW pads, noticeably more initial bite! And they're supposed to produce less dust too.

So if £30 pads are better than the OEM's then i bet some Stop Tech Street Performance pads (around £120 shipped) would make these brakes very decent, it's even worth a try on the single piston brakes before shelling out thousands on a big brake kit.

What you going to do when you car goes back to the lease company, put all the OEM parts back on?

[teaston]

Originally Posted by dopper99

What you going to do when you car goes back to the lease company, put all the OEM parts back on?

Lol, I don't think that applies to consumables apart from tyres.