[adhrp]

Originally Posted by Wires

So you cannot own a sporty looking car even though you don't drive on the track? People have been modding their cars since the dawn of time, and the Japanese car makers have finally started to provide out of the box solutions that fit that market segment.

If you want to start digging into numbers, the car the OP posted is faster 0-60 than the BMW 330, more HP, but less torque.

Every car has it's purpose, all I'm saying BMW isn't the end all be all "performance enthusiast car". You can take the new Civic Type R to the track, and it will blow always a lot of 3-series since its more nimble and easier to throw around. Throttle house did a track comparison between the M2 completion (one would deem the defacto track car) and the Civic type R.
The spread between the two was pretty low (113.9 seconds M2, 114.8 seconds Civic):

And yes, a 2013 Sonata didn't roll and cornered better than the E90. Even my 340 has a ton of body roll for a "aggressive performance car".

You are taking this into a direction I didn't point to in the first place. In fact, what I said in my first post has nothing to do with BMW or likewise comparisons and I never claimed that BMW is the "end all be all performance enthusiast car" (you brought it up). Just looking at the Camry alone and forgetting BMW even exists, what I don't understand is the need to make these cars more aggressive in design. Who exactly is asking for it? They already have some sporty cars in their line up. Maybe introduce another one there. Why mess around with the Camry? What are they hoping to achieve with it - that instead of its usual peers such as Accord and Sonata, that it is one day going to compete with the Tesla Model S Plaid? SMH

[AllaVodka]

Jesus christ man get some sleep

[SuperLomi]

Originally Posted by adhrp

Who exactly is asking for it? They already have some sporty cars in their line up.

You're making a really classic blunder here, and I’m not talking about land wars in Asia or antagonizing Sicilians.

You’re assuming you know what the market is based on your personal opinion and experience. But there’s plenty of people who would be happy driving a “sportier Camry”, who would otherwise not like the base model. Why do you think the S and XS badges are so popular? This is just another step up that rung. No one is claiming this is an M3 competitor.

Toyota is making this product because there is a market for it. They have people who’s entire job is to understand if there’s a market for it.

Your assertion that no one want’s it, or that it should be branded as a different model makes no sense. But it’s perfectly fine to say it doesn’t appeal to YOU, and YOU don’t like it.

[adhrp]

Originally Posted by SuperLomi

You're making a really classic blunder here, and I’m not talking about land wars in Asia or antagonizing Sicilians.

You’re assuming you know what the market is based on your personal opinion and experience. But there’s plenty of people who would be happy driving a “sportier Camry”, who would otherwise not like the base model. Why do you think the S and XS badges are so popular? This is just another step up that rung. No one is claiming this is an M3 competitor.

Toyota is making this product because there is a market for it. They have people who’s entire job is to understand if there’s a market for it.

Your assertion that no one want’s it, or that it should be branded as a different model makes no sense. But it’s perfectly fine to say it doesn’t appeal to YOU, and YOU don’t like it.

Reading this thread alone, you will see that many people don't like the design. I am well aware that what I am expressing is my personal opinion here and companies have people who analyze the market, etc. Sure, I am generalizing it, but the thing is, these days every other model (and not just Toyota) is designed like a "sports" car. Design is a subjective topic, there will always be someone who likes (or accepts) a given design, but man it is so nauseating these days. Or perhaps all cars are sporty now, who knows...clearly Camrys and Sonatas are handling better than BMWs. Are you paying attention, BMW AG??

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by adhrp

Or perhaps all cars are sporty now, who knows...clearly Camrys and Sonatas are handling better than BMWs. Are you paying attention, BMW AG??

Camrys and Sonatas cannot handle better than BMW, and BMWAG knows that.

[SuperLomi]

Originally Posted by adhrp

Or perhaps all cars are sporty now, who knows...clearly Camrys and Sonatas are handling better than BMWs. Are you paying attention, BMW AG??

You sort of hit it. The market has shifted, and sedan buyer's generally do want a sportier feel. The market segment you think want's a sedan actually buys small SUV's like the Rav 4 now, for the most part. There's a reason car makers are discontinuing a lot of their sedan's.

I don't know about handling better than the equivalent BMW. But they certainly are handling much better than the previous generation of sedan's, anyway. I could see where the previous poster might feel a new Sonata handles better than and older BMW with perhaps worn suspension components. Especially as just an initial, short term impression.

[Wires]

Originally Posted by SuperLomi

You sort of hit it. The market has shifted, and sedan buyer's generally do want a sportier feel. The market segment you think want's a sedan actually buys small SUV's like the Rav 4 now, for the most part. There's a reason car makers are discontinuing a lot of their sedan's.

I don't know about handling better than the equivalent BMW. But they certainly are handling much better than the previous generation of sedan's, anyway. I could see where the previous poster might feel a new Sonata handles better than and older BMW with perhaps worn suspension components. Especially as just an initial, short term impression.

Not disagreeing that my suspension had a bunch of miles and probably could have needed a refresh. When I traded it at 50k miles, the rear definitely needed work. What I can say without a doubt is a Japanese brand at 30k miles wouldn't need a full suspension rebuild though. So to keep my "ultimate driving machine" awesome, requires refreshes (either in parts, or a new car. )

All I'm saying is technology advances, and other car makers incorporate advancements into their vehicles. It's just naïve to believe you cannot have a decent handling car with a sport trim. In the mid-80's Hyundai made the biggest pieces of garbage out there. They flipped their quality around on their brand to be the only one offering a 10 year warranty.

I've seen multiple of those Camry TRD's in around where I live. Toyota has did a beautiful job making that car look appealing (compared to a couple years ago). I still struggle with the front on both their Toyota and Lexus brands, but the other 3 sides look bad a$$.

[jnj2455]

1.) I have a soft spot for earlier 90s generation Camrys more so from a nostalgia standpoint / admiration of their engineering prowess to last through apocalypses.

2.) I do think the current gen looks quite good for what it is. That said, I think the TRD version + the wing is hideous.

3.) Someone please move this to the general automotive discussion.

[adhrp]

Originally Posted by SuperLomi

You sort of hit it. The market has shifted, and sedan buyer's generally do want a sportier feel. The market segment you think want's a sedan actually buys small SUV's like the Rav 4 now, for the most part. There's a reason car makers are discontinuing a lot of their sedan's.

That is true. I looked up stats on sedan sales, and every sedan I looked up (Camry, Sonata, 3 series, etc) has seen steadily declining sales since 2015. The average age of Camry buyers is (was?) 50 yrs old. With that demographic moving into SUVs, I can see why Toyota is pivoting to attract younger buyers on a slope that is continually moving downhill. That said, if this discussion was about Mazda, I would have been much more receptive because it is inherently a performance-oriented company with congruence in the design and capabilities of its vehicles. But perhaps I am being too hard on Toyota. They are trying, but they are late to the party.

[bimmer456]

Looks nice and sounds nice with na V6 but slow. Also FWD. more comparable in size to a 5 series than a 3. Uses the same engine as lotus so maybe a super charger could help as well as 4wd with v6. Honda Accord is faster.

[Solidjake]

I saw a Camry at a tire shop once and the rear control arms were thinner than my pinky...

[Chihuahua]

Grounded to the ground.