[BMWApp]

Sorry if this question has been addressed in other threads, but I am curious as to how flash tunes are able to generate such large power gains over stock. Does BMW just leave that much power on the table or do the flash tunes take power levels the point of risking the engine? I’m in the market for a flash tune for my 2016 340i xDrive and have read a lot of positive reviews of bootmod and Mission Performance for instance but am curious about them and how they can be safe yet add so much power. Can someone help me understand?

[Ahanix]

There’s a lot of factors at play here. Car manufacturers generally will detune their engines in favor of reliability in all markets while also keeping enough buffer in their other verticals. (If you offered a 400hp car for $50k vs a 450hp car for $80k you’re going to lose some sales on the 450hp car)

Aftermarket tunes will push your engine / drivetrain harder, but generally not harder than they are meant to be run until you start messing with things like aftermarket turbos, internals.etc.

Tuners want to give you that extra performance safely otherwise they will start to get a bad rep for toasting engines.etc

Adding in another layer of complexity are custom tunes which theoretically should be the maximum amount of power that you can reliably use.



If you’re familiar with overclocking CPU’s it’s the same general theory

CPU - i7 9700k is 3.6ghz stock.

Motherboard manufacturers allow you to use default overclocking for these CPU’s to go to around 4.5ghz as a ‘safe’ calculation of where you can go. - we’ll call this an OTS tune for cars.

If you are experienced with overclocking you can take this CPU to 5ghz easily, but you have to factor in environmental factors as well as how good your CPU is. - This is like doing a custom tune.

[fantanas]

Originally Posted by Ahanix

There’s a lot of factors at play here. Car manufacturers generally will detune their engines in favor of reliability in all markets while also keeping enough buffer in their other verticals. (If you offered a 400hp car for $50k vs a 450hp car for $80k you’re going to lose some sales on the 450hp car)

Aftermarket tunes will push your engine / drivetrain harder, but generally not harder than they are meant to be run until you start messing with things like aftermarket turbos, internals.etc.

Tuners want to give you that extra performance safely otherwise they will start to get a bad rep for toasting engines.etc

Adding in another layer of complexity are custom tunes which theoretically should be the maximum amount of power that you can reliably use.



If you’re familiar with overclocking CPU’s it’s the same general theory

CPU - i7 9700k is 3.6ghz stock.

Motherboard manufacturers allow you to use default overclocking for these CPU’s to go to around 4.5ghz as a ‘safe’ calculation of where you can go. - we’ll call this an OTS tune for cars.

If you are experienced with overclocking you can take this CPU to 5ghz easily, but you have to factor in environmental factors as well as how good your CPU is. - This is like doing a custom tune.

I really liked your explanation.

[eluded]

Just adding more boost what could go wrong ?

[kern417]

Yep Ahanix hit the nail on the head. Top priority is marketing and developing a robust lineup that doesn't fight eachother for sales.

Notice how BMW consistently gives the same engine varying HP based on the car, i.e. the M240i makes more than the F30 B58 engines. But for a fee you can upgrade to a comparable OEM tune.

Or the new M2 Competition that has the exact same engine as the M3/M4, but they detuned it so they don't have a lighter more capable car messing with their ///M sales.

They also want room for the next model to improve on power figures. They can't tap out our cars at 400hp because then the next 3 series would need to be 20% more than that. Instead, they made a few minor tweaks to the engine and pump out 50+ more hp on the new B58.

Regardless of the reason, they deliberately leave a lot of power on the table. Unless you're Ford, OEMs tend to provide turbo engines running 10psi or less when most turbos are most efficient around 20psi. So it's easy to increase the boost and timing to get the most out of the car.

[BMWApp]

Thanks everyone for the info. It all makes sense. Can’t wait to get my 340i flash tuned now!

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by BMWApp

Thanks everyone for the info. It all makes sense. Can’t wait to get my 340i flash tuned now!

Which tune are you getting?

[B58togo]

^^

He's an intelligent man, so he's going with BM3.

[Jerich0]

Wow...

Surprised to see all the previous statements are very innacurate.

OEM Turbocharged engines leave power on the table because not everybody lives at sea level.

Respectable manufacturers produce turbo engines that make the same power at 0 to 6,000ft so the engine has to have that headroom built in.

Tuners take advantage of this and give you that power at sea level, but if you happen to be at 6,000ft and tune your engine you will net close to zero hp or maybe less.

THIS IS A FACT and number one reason you can get more HP out of your turbo engine.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Jerich0

Wow...

Surprised to see all the previous statements are very innacurate.

OEM Turbocharged engines leave power on the table because not everybody lives at sea level.

Respectable manufacturers produce turbo engines that make the same power at 0 to 6,000ft so the engine has to have that headroom built in.

Tuners take advantage of this and give you that power at sea level, but if you happen to be at 6,000ft and tune your engine you will net close to zero hp or maybe less.

THIS IS A FACT and number one reason you can get more HP out of your turbo engine.

THIS IS NOT A FACT.

They make the exact same engine with various power levels across the BMW fleet. The even offer OEM tunes for more power output. So they know they are leaving power on the table for $$$ and business tactics from the beginning.

Then tuners get a hold of it and build/test across the platform and various regions. The exact same tune can be had for vehicles at all sea levels and temperature ranges. Then they release a tune that works for most, and if you want more power for an ideal situation then a custom tune is an option. That's why OTS maps exist.

At the end of the day, if your car makes less power tuned then it makes less power stock too. Tuners are only responsible for increasing your engine's output, not hitting a set number on a dyno.

Maybe before claiming you're stating facts, trying working for an OEM and understanding the model they use for engine management. It's a lot more than compensating for various conditions.

[Jerich0]

Originally Posted by kern417

THIS IS NOT A FACT.

They make the exact same engine with various power levels across the BMW fleet. The even offer OEM tunes for more power output. So they know they are leaving power on the table for $$$ and business tactics from the beginning.

Then tuners get a hold of it and build/test across the platform and various regions. The exact same tune can be had for vehicles at all sea levels and temperature ranges. Then they release a tune that works for most, and if you want more power for an ideal situation then a custom tune is an option. That's why OTS maps exist.

At the end of the day, if your car makes less power tuned then it makes less power stock too. Tuners are only responsible for increasing your engine's output, not hitting a set number on a dyno.

Maybe before claiming you're stating facts, trying working for an OEM and understanding the model they use for engine management. It's a lot more than compensating for various conditions.

They do make the same engine with different power levels for different price points you are correct on that, but if you read carefully my post I state that NUMBER ONE Reason for the headroom is performance at different altitude/conditions and it has been this way since a couple of decades ago.

Lately the advantage of better compressors has permitted oems to make the same engine work very efficiently at different power levels.

Try reading harder.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Jerich0

They do make the same engine with different power levels for different price points you are correct on that, but if you read carefully my post I state that NUMBER ONE Reason for the headroom is performance at different altitude/conditions and it has been this way since a couple of decades ago.

Lately the advantage of better compressors has permitted oems to make the same engine work very efficiently at different power levels.

Try reading harder.

There is nothing to "read harder." Your car makes more power in cold weather just like it makes less power at high elevation. The car's ECU can accommodate various fuels and climates regardless of the tune. Again, a tuner provides a HP increase. This increase is across many fuels, regions, and elevations.

Your car may make 300whp at sea level in the summer. The power will drop at higher elevations and increase with cooler weather. An aftermarket tune will add power in all of those scenarios. So that is not the main reason that BMW is leaving headroom on their engines. It can be done safely with the hardware they provided. But it will effect their sales, so it is not done.

[anotheran]

Also emissions, noise laws, and fuel economy isn’t as high of a concern for a tuner compared to a manufacturer since they’re making it for “off road use only”

[jackstrath]

Originally Posted by anotheran

Also emissions, noise laws, and fuel economy isn’t as high of a concern for a tuner compared to a manufacturer since they’re making it for “off road use only”

In the EU thats pretty much been the dictation for years, its all down to emissions and fuel economy how the car manufacture gets tax'd on such, they have an agreement to make X amount of "green cars" out of the total production, hence why we got re badged Toyota Iq , Aston martin cygnet to counter balance the emissions of basically an all V8 petrol range of cars!

[kern417]

Originally Posted by anotheran

Also emissions, noise laws, and fuel economy isn’t as high of a concern for a tuner compared to a manufacturer since they’re making it for “off road use only”

Yessir. When I worked at and OEM, they had focus teams that their only goal was to develop next generation powertrains. Every generation had the same expectations.

10-20% power improvement
1-2mpg increase

You HAD to hit the mark. Because everything was built into the business model based on the future projections developed by marketing. It made sure that we were making vehicles that would push buyers to upgrade without interfering with the next model up in the lineup.

When BMW designed the B58, the conversation didn't go "320hp is all we can get out of this."

It was "we need an engine that will make xxxhp and xxmpg for xxxk miles, and it needs to support future evolutions of the model line."

[BMWApp]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Which tune are you getting?

I’m looking at BM3, Active Autowerke and Mission Performance. I’m leaning towards Active Autowerke because I’m also thinking about getting their exhaust and there’s a great shop here in Charlotte that can install both for me. I’m a little nervous about trying to flash the car myself.

[chenry]

Originally Posted by BMWApp

I'm looking at BM3, Active Autowerke and Mission Performance. I'm leaning towards Active Autowerke because I'm also thinking about getting their exhaust and there's a great shop here in Charlotte that can install both for me. I'm a little nervous about trying to flash the car myself.

Don't be it's very straight forward with all the flash options - it's also something you want to get familiar with so you can flash back to stock and lock if need be if you are away from your local shop etc

Edit:
**i was a bit nervous too the first time - but Alex (MP) stayed on the phone with me during the entire process and while I didn't need him for anything in the end - it gave me a level of comfort / if you're going AA maybe do it yourself at the shop?

[BMWApp]

Originally Posted by chenry

Don't be it's very straight forward with all the flash options - it's also something you want to get familiar with so you can flash back to stock and lock if need be if you are away from your local shop etc

Edit:
**i was a bit nervous too the first time - but Alex (MP) stayed on the phone with me during the entire process and while I didn't need him for anything in the end - it gave me a level of comfort / if you're going AA maybe do it yourself at the shop?

Thanks for the info. What do you think about the MP tune? Did you do the transmission flash also? What model F30 do you have?

[chenry]

Originally Posted by BMWApp

Thanks for the info. What do you think about the MP tune? Did you do the transmission flash also? What model F30 do you have?

I couldn't be happier - I'm in my late 40's and have had more BMWs than I care to admit to (high teens). I've dealt with a vast array of tuners over the last 3 decades and while I have nothing bad to say about any tuner out there I couldn't be more pleased with what MP is delivering.

I drive a 2017 340MSport that I have flashed with the MP 2.5 engine tune and stage 1 tranny tune. I run a couple gallons of E85 combined with our Cali 91 crap gas when I'm in the mood but otherwise just drop 91 into the tank (the tune adapts just fine). I have a very heavy right foot and also regularly track and AutoX my car - I take good care of her but also give her hell on the daily. The car just keeps asking for more.

I'm about 6 months away from a G20 M340 - and not surprisingly MP is the only company so far to crack the DME for that car- Alex is a gentleman, enthusiast and innovator who brings mechanical, engineering and programming skills all together. I think it is a mature, well sorted, track proven, drag strip proven, tune that balances performance with reliability and brings that to the street

Again not taking anything away from any other tuner out there - but this is simply my opinion of my car and my tune :-)

I would highly encourage anyone that is interested to simply call the guy. You can IM me if you need more info - always happy to help and share what I have learned

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by BMWApp

I’m looking at BM3, Active Autowerke and Mission Performance. I’m leaning towards Active Autowerke because I’m also thinking about getting their exhaust and there’s a great shop here in Charlotte that can install both for me. I’m a little nervous about trying to flash the car myself.

Active's flash is one of my favorite tunes

Its very easy to flash the car yourself, you are also more than welcome to contact me or Active direct and i will guide you throughout the process

[itsglen]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Active's flash is one of my favorite tunes

Its very easy to flash the car yourself, you are also more than welcome to contact me or Active direct and i will guide you throughout the process

If someone was not inclined to go with AA what are some of your other favorite tunes - where would you steer prospective customers and why?

[BMWApp]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Active's flash is one of my favorite tunes

Its very easy to flash the car yourself, you are also more than welcome to contact me or Active direct and i will guide you throughout the process

Thanks Mike. I’m glad to hear that you think the AA flash is a great tune. What do you think about their exhaust?