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      10-20-2019, 05:32 PM   #1783
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But of course, I am, in your humble opinion, a perfect example of why we shouldn't let 'the people' vote.
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      10-20-2019, 06:08 PM   #1784
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Originally Posted by gIzzE View Post
I think you're a perfect example of why we shouldn't let 'the people' vote.
I know it's awful isn't it. I actually did quite a lot of research before I made my decision, rather than watching a Nigel Farage speech.

I'd like to know who the economic experts are on the Leave side that you referred to in an earlier post? You said there were just as many on either side? Which as far as I'm aware is just a blatant lie. I'll be willing to bet you wouldn't take the time to watch any Adam Posen videos for example, he might say something sensible and intelligent and why would you want to watch that when you've made a decision with your gut. I'd be happy to watch any economic expert that says it's a good idea to leave and decide after, not before, what I think.

And I'm in agreement, we shouldn't let the people vote on these things, they're way too complicated. That's why the rest of our democracy isn't run this way.
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      10-20-2019, 06:54 PM   #1785
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What a prize bell end Boris is.
Try asking Alexa to say Boris Johnson 100 100 100 in welsh!
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      10-21-2019, 04:42 AM   #1786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds View Post
I know it's awful isn't it. I actually did quite a lot of research before I made my decision, rather than watching a Nigel Farage speech.

I'd like to know who the economic experts are on the Leave side that you referred to in an earlier post? You said there were just as many on either side? Which as far as I'm aware is just a blatant lie. I'll be willing to bet you wouldn't take the time to watch any Adam Posen videos for example, he might say something sensible and intelligent and why would you want to watch that when you've made a decision with your gut. I'd be happy to watch any economic expert that says it's a good idea to leave and decide after, not before, what I think.

And I'm in agreement, we shouldn't let the people vote on these things, they're way too complicated. That's why the rest of our democracy isn't run this way.

I wasn't talking about people on the leave side. I think the EU project is in big trouble, the Euro has been its downfall. The referendum was a way to get away from it.

As I said, I would like to see a reset, a return to free trade and freedom of movement without the shackles of a single currency and the ECB etc.

People like Mark Blyth, has done a few talks with Adam Posen, and people I know who work in finance and economics are more the people who I think have a true grasp of where we are at currently.


This is not black and white, you say blatant lies, but it is not about lying. It is about what the effects of leaving or staying will have, it is all a guessing game.
You could say that the info we were given about unemployment, instant drop in GDP, huge inflation, house price crash and massive hike in interest rates the day after the vote if we voted leave was all a lie. It wasn't a lie, I do genuinely think that is what they thought at the time, just many thought the claims a bit silly.

Send me some links you think are watching of Posen and I will have a watch. His stuff on trade wars and central banks I do tend to agree with, alot of what he says is what Yanis Varoufakis has been saying for the last decade, although Yanis was saying the Euro would be the downfall of the EU, which is why the EU really didn't like him. But many think he is right.

As I said, we all just see it from different angles, many of the issues within the EU can be sorted in two ways, move sovereignty given back or tighter integration moving forward. Different people will have different views on which way we need to go now.
The one thing most agree on though, is we have to chose one of those two, we can't carry on as we are as it is not working.


Anyway, off to some lodge in the forest for the rest of the week. So may not have internet.

Have fun all, just remember, someone who voted differently to you, may be did so with good intentions. You never know?
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      10-21-2019, 05:08 AM   #1787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gIzzE View Post
I wasn't talking about people on the leave side. I think the EU project is in big trouble, the Euro has been its downfall. The referendum was a way to get away from it.

As I said, I would like to see a reset, a return to free trade and freedom of movement without the shackles of a single currency and the ECB etc.

People like Mark Blyth, has done a few talks with Adam Posen, and people I know who work in finance and economics are more the people who I think have a true grasp of where we are at currently.


This is not black and white, you say blatant lies, but it is not about lying. It is about what the effects of leaving or staying will have, it is all a guessing game.
You could say that the info we were given about unemployment, instant drop in GDP, huge inflation, house price crash and massive hike in interest rates the day after the vote if we voted leave was all a lie. It wasn't a lie, I do genuinely think that is what they thought at the time, just many thought the claims a bit silly.

Send me some links you think are watching of Posen and I will have a watch. His stuff on trade wars and central banks I do tend to agree with, alot of what he says is what Yanis Varoufakis has been saying for the last decade, although Yanis was saying the Euro would be the downfall of the EU, which is why the EU really didn't like him. But many think he is right.

As I said, we all just see it from different angles, many of the issues within the EU can be sorted in two ways, move sovereignty given back or tighter integration moving forward. Different people will have different views on which way we need to go now.
The one thing most agree on though, is we have to chose one of those two, we can't carry on as we are as it is not working.


Anyway, off to some lodge in the forest for the rest of the week. So may not have internet.

Have fun all, just remember, someone who voted differently to you, may be did so with good intentions. You never know?
Could be wrong but I think you and Alex (Goneinsixtyseconds) may be at ever so slightly cross-purposes! I think he's saying the majority of expert opinion believes the UK would be better off economically by staying in the EU and that's probably fair comment. However, I think what you're alluding to is some of the systemic problems in the EU - and especially the Eurozone - and that's a slightly different thing.

I don't think any of the future predictions for UK growth in and out of the EU attempt to factor-in the effect of the ECB running in to major problems; the potential issues there are for the most part ignored - or at least glossed over - and hence remain a rather large elephant in the room.

As I've said previously, I'm one of those who's very nervous at some aspects of ECB policy and I fear if (when?) it finally blows-up in their faces we'll be better out of the EU than in it (albeit we'll be affected adversely either way). That was one of the things that pushed me towards voting Leave in 2016 although I appreciate others would come to a different conclusion - I'm sure staunch Remainers would dismiss concerns about the ECB as the Leave equivalent of Project Fear and that's fine, they're entitled to their opinion.
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      10-21-2019, 11:14 AM   #1788
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So, despite MPs not voting for or against the new WAB on Saturday due to the introduction of yet more Brexit-related legislation, The Speaker now refuses to allow this vote take place today.

I, for one, cannot wait for Bercow to end his tenure.
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      10-21-2019, 11:33 AM   #1789
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Originally Posted by Watsey View Post
So, despite MPs not voting for or against the new WAB on Saturday due to the introduction of yet more Brexit-related legislation, The Speaker now refuses to allow this vote take place today.

I, for one, cannot wait for Bercow to end his tenure.
Maybe I've missed something, but wasn't today's vote meant to be for the same thing that was voted on Saturday with a slight tweak here and there to make it look like something different?
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      10-21-2019, 11:39 AM   #1790
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Originally Posted by SuperHamz View Post
Maybe I've missed something, but wasn't today's vote meant to be for the same thing that was voted on Saturday with a slight tweak here and there to make it look like something different?
Not quite, the amended bill was voted through on Saturday the Gov doesn't like that amendment so is trying to say that the bill wasn't voted on (which it was) and are trying to bring it back but the speaker is perfectly correct to do what he has done.

As it stands today we have a withdrawal bill that has been voted on and has gone through.
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      10-21-2019, 11:57 AM   #1791
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Originally Posted by Watsey View Post
So, despite MPs not voting for or against the new WAB on Saturday due to the introduction of yet more Brexit-related legislation, The Speaker now refuses to allow this vote take place today.

I, for one, cannot wait for Bercow to end his tenure.
He refused on exactly the same grounds in March and Rees Mogg sent him a letter to say how pleased he was with him. Haha, you couldn't make it up. How come these lot in parliament are allowed to change their minds so much?
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      10-22-2019, 06:09 AM   #1792
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Originally Posted by JNW1 View Post
Could be wrong but I think you and Alex (Goneinsixtyseconds) may be at ever so slightly cross-purposes! I think he's saying the majority of expert opinion believes the UK would be better off economically by staying in the EU and that's probably fair comment. However, I think what you're alluding to is some of the systemic problems in the EU - and especially the Eurozone - and that's a slightly different thing.

I don't think any of the future predictions for UK growth in and out of the EU attempt to factor-in the effect of the ECB running in to major problems; the potential issues there are for the most part ignored - or at least glossed over - and hence remain a rather large elephant in the room.

As I've said previously, I'm one of those who's very nervous at some aspects of ECB policy and I fear if (when?) it finally blows-up in their faces we'll be better out of the EU than in it (albeit we'll be affected adversely either way). That was one of the things that pushed me towards voting Leave in 2016 although I appreciate others would come to a different conclusion - I'm sure staunch Remainers would dismiss concerns about the ECB as the Leave equivalent of Project Fear and that's fine, they're entitled to their opinion.

Exactly.

For many, the referendum was a sudden get out that was presented, the opportunity was taken.
It didn't matter what was said leading up to it, for many the direction it was heading, the way the peripheries were being treated, and the spiralling debt traps that were being created was not something we wanted to be a part of.

To not look at the economic state of the EU, where it is at and where it is heading in regards to whether we, the UK, want to be part of it is crazy, yet so many dismiss it completely, as if it doesn't matter. For many it is the reason for their decision.
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      10-22-2019, 06:28 AM   #1793
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Second reading today, lets see if it gets through...
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      10-22-2019, 06:29 AM   #1794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gIzzE View Post
Exactly.

For many, the referendum was a sudden get out that was presented, the opportunity was taken.
Absolutely no one in the leave campaign campaigned for anything like the deal being proposed now. It was all 'we'll remain in the single market and customs union. Rights for EU residents won't be effected'. Even Farage was saying this stuff.

To suggest anything otherwise is just a flat out lie.

Most Brexiteers don't even know the difference between the single market and customs union so to say they knew what they were voting for is totally false.
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      10-22-2019, 06:39 AM   #1795
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Originally Posted by Dyl View Post
To suggest anything otherwise is just a flat out lie.
The issue is when you've been had and lied to and think you know everything it's really hard to admit it....so you continue the lie.

"never in doubt but rarely right" sums it up.
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Last edited by Wills2; 10-22-2019 at 06:46 AM..
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      10-22-2019, 02:57 PM   #1796
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Well that's it then, definitely no Brexit on 31st October!
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      10-22-2019, 04:41 PM   #1797
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Well that's it then, definitely no Brexit on 31st October!
Well they agreed the deal so there will definitely be a brexit.

I'm not sure delaying it for the giggles will benefit anyone.
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      10-22-2019, 04:48 PM   #1798
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Well they agreed the deal so there will definitely be a brexit.

I'm not sure delaying it for the giggles will benefit anyone.
How I understand it is that there will definitely now be a delay of some form!?
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      10-22-2019, 04:59 PM   #1799
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR1664 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by teaston View Post
Well that's it then, definitely no Brexit on 31st October!
Well they agreed the deal so there will definitely be a brexit.

I'm not sure delaying it for the giggles will benefit anyone.
I think potentially you're both wrong!

In theory there could still be a Brexit on 31st October but only if the EU refuses an extension (which I accept is highly unlikely!).

I don't think the events of today mean there will definitely be a Brexit either; it's quite possible approval of the legislation could be amended to make it conditional on another referendum and if that's the case the eventual outcome could still be Remain.

I have to say I don't agree with Boris on the timetable issue though; I'd have thought it would have made more sense to press ahead and ask the EU for a relatively short extension (say 5 days) to allow proper scrutiny of the bill. Unfortunately, though, he's boxed himself in by nailing his colours to the 31st October deadline (which in all probability he won't meet anyway).
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      10-22-2019, 05:02 PM   #1800
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How I understand it is that there will definitely now be a delay of some form!?
Parliament has asked for the extension, the gov hasn't, it's interesting as can a gov with no majority force it (the WA bill) through against parliament's will, I'm not sure it can but who knows.
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      10-22-2019, 05:19 PM   #1801
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Originally Posted by JNW1 View Post
I'd have thought it would have made more sense to press ahead and ask the EU for a relatively short extension (say 5 days) to allow proper scrutiny of the bill. Unfortunately, though, he's boxed himself in by nailing his colours to the 31st October deadline (which in all probability he won't meet anyway).
Can't disagree with that. I'm just amazed that with a deal not that far removed from Mays they couldn't have got their collective heads around it. Even K Clarke was asking the house for 4 days, he was politely shoved aside.

So it continues.
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      10-22-2019, 05:24 PM   #1802
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Can't disagree with that. I'm just amazed that with a deal not that far removed from Mays they couldn't have got their collective heads around it. Even K Clarke was asking the house for 4 days, he was politely shoved aside.

So it continues.
And continues, and continues........
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      10-22-2019, 06:07 PM   #1803
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      10-22-2019, 06:44 PM   #1804
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Never has a parliament been more in need of a general election. Yet the make up of the current parliament are loving the limbo it causes and the power it takes from the government. They know that come a GE they’ll be largely toast and the idea of giving up that 80k salary and the current fun they’re all having is far more enticing a prospect than letting the country break out of this godforsaken rut.

The irony is that all the time they don’t and won’t pass a deal the no deal brexit they’re all so keen to take off the table remains on it. This current deal seems to be a genuine compromise, surprisingly so. Whether they’ve had 3 days or 3 weeks to read through and analyse the WAB wouldn’t make the blind bit of difference to most as they’d struggle to understand it. Thick as mince half of this lot.

Besides, they want more time to read through a Bill that they’re completely set against voting on regardless of the content. What an absolute farce. The next GE will see a decimation on a par with the expenses scandal.
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