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      04-11-2019, 10:28 PM   #89
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This is the first time I’m hearing about this Hulian asshinge guy.
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      04-11-2019, 10:43 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Yeah, you're right.

For some reason, after he'd been trapped by the US government in a flat in london, the guy got pretty single-minded about publishing stuff that was damaging to the US government.

Despite my belief that he should never see the inside of a US courtroom unless he stupidly travels to the USA by his own free will; I think he did meddle with a foreign election (yours), and he should've got kicked out of the ecuadorian embassy for a whole host of good reasons.

But before he was locked in the Embassy, Wikileaks was a leak publishing website that provided a secure way for anybody in any organisation to blow the lid off secret criminal behaviour of their employer.

They published information from a whole bunch of countries and commercial organisations before they got their 'big break' with the US Cables and NSA files.

Some of us think the world needs a service like that. Especially since we're all quite comfortable (or complacent) about government agencies monitoring our every behavior - it'd be nice to have a way to keep the bastards honest.

Obviously, the US Government thinks the world needs to not have a service like that. The UK, Australian and Swedish governments either agree, or want to keep their US counterparts happy. ... And they've collectively made a very good example of Julian Assange, which should discourage anybody from ever wanting to launch Wikileaks 2.

If you're interested, it'd pay to read this document https://wikileaks.org/IMG/pdf/WikiLeaks_Response_v6.pdf - which was created around the time Julian was first charged with criminal offences - explaining how the US Government should best address the "wikileaks threat" ... see if you recognize any of the tactics to manipulate public opinion .

Last edited by xQx; 04-11-2019 at 10:51 PM..
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      04-11-2019, 10:57 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xQx View Post
Yeah, you're right.

For some reason, after he'd been trapped by the US government in a flat in london, the guy got pretty single-minded about publishing stuff that was damaging to the US government.

Despite my belief that he should never see the inside of a US courtroom unless he stupidly travels to the USA by his own free will; I think he did meddle with a foreign election (yours), and he should've got kicked out of the ecuadorian embassy for a whole host of good reasons.

But before he was locked in the Embassy, Wikileaks was a leak publishing website that provided a secure way for anybody in any organisation to blow the lid off secret criminal behaviour of their employer.

They published information from a whole bunch of countries and commercial organisations before they got their 'big break' with the US Cables and NSA files.

Some of us think the world needs a service like that. Especially since we're all quite comfortable (or complacent) about government agencies monitoring our every behavior - it'd be nice to have a way to keep the bastards honest.

Obviously, the US Government thinks the world needs to not have a service like that. The UK, Australian and Swedish governments either agree, or want to keep their US counterparts happy. ... And they've collectively made a very good example of Julian Assange, which should discourage anybody from ever wanting to launch Wikileaks 2.

If you're interested, it'd pay to read this document https://wikileaks.org/IMG/pdf/WikiLeaks_Response_v6.pdf - explaining how the US Government should best address the "wikileaks threat".
I read a good portion of it and found it interesting that many in WikiLeaks are not happy about Assange derailing the original mission. Instead choosing to basically take on/focus mainly on the US.

I agree the world needs an organization like this. But the key word being the world.

My personal feelings about Assange aside, I do think he will get a fair trial and it isnít necessarily a forgone conclusion heíll be convicted. But, I do think it is odd that he pushed Manning so hard for info knowing full well what happen when Manning was caught. Then walks away free to go try and get somebody else to put themselves at great risk for more info. But, that is the game unfortunately.

Last, I really donít think Sweden is a part of this and I really do think they legitimately are investigating if a rape occurred. Why people dismiss the rape/sexual assault allegations so quickly is curious to me. Strangely had he gone to Sweden I think they might have resisted the USís extradition attempt much more than the U.K.
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      04-11-2019, 10:58 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
You aren’t actually serious with this post are you? Russia doesn’t need a WikiLeaks? Second to China they are the ones most badly in need of such a type of organization. Please show me these big releases that have had the same impact/importance as the ones against the West/US.
You still dont get it what wikileaks is about.
Everyone knows what type of horrors are at play in russia, china etc.
We have countless intelligence agencies at work to uncover that.
A russian or chinese only has to read the western news to read what aweful things happen in their own countries.
And you can hardly call those countries democracies.

The point of wikileaks is to investigate and uncover what things are done by organisations/governments that are completely formed legally/democratically and for which they didnt get a mandate.

Really, you have the wrong idea about what the goal or idea of wikileaks is.

And the fact that you are baffled by that there are no chinese or NK or whatever documents only states that.

Its not about how many crimes and authrocities are commited in a country, but its about informing the electorate how many crimes and authrocities are comitted by organisations formed by that electorate and for which they lack the mandate.
Its about finding the non free aspects of the free world.
Finding the non free aspects in a dictatorship is well... carrying coals to Newcastle.

Until you understand this we are indeed far apart in our thinking but I understand why there are no chinese documents on wikileaks and you dont.
And its not because they favour china and think china is such a fine country or something like that.
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      04-11-2019, 11:04 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by .2pdk View Post
It looks like they arrested Santa...
He did not age well.
7 years inside that building. Going to prison now. What's the difference?
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      04-11-2019, 11:04 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
You still dont get it what wikileaks is about.
Everyone knows what type of horrors are at play in russia, china etc.
We have countless intelligence agencies at work to uncover that.
A russian or chinese only has to read the western news to read what aweful things happen in their own countries.
And you can hardly call those countries democracies.

The point of wikileaks is to investigate and uncover what things are done by organisations/governments that are completely formed legally/democratically and for which they didnt get a mandate.

Really, you have the wrong idea about what the goal or idea of wikileaks is.

And the fact that you are baffled by that there are no chinese or NK or whatever documents only states that.

Its not about how many crimes and authrocities are commited in a country, but its about informing the electorate how many crimes and authrocities are comitted by organisations formed by that electorate and for which they lack the mandate.
Its about finding the non free aspects of the free world.
Finding the non free aspects in a dictatorship is well... carrying coals to Newcastle.
I don’t get it? The West has freedom of the press and you act like nothing was ever exposed, whistle blown or reported on before Wikileaks/Assange came along.

How many average Chinese or NK citizens have access to Western news sources? Or Russians for that matter? Yes they are the ones most in need of a WikiLeaks
organization and a way to get it to the average citizen in countries like those.

Again we are far far apart on our thinking here..........
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      04-11-2019, 11:08 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I don’t get it? The West has freedom of the press and you act like nothing was ever exposed, whistle blown or reported on before Wikileaks/Assange came along.
I dont say that at all.


Quote:

Again we are far far apart on our thinking here..........
Indeed, we are stil far far apart. I get why there are no chinese documents on wikileaks and you dont.
Wikileaks has not the same goal as you think it has.
I edited a remark below my last post in the time you made your post btw.
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      04-11-2019, 11:11 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Last, I really donít think Sweden is a part of this and I really do think they legitimately are investigating if a rape occurred. Why people dismiss the rape/sexual assault allegations so quickly is curious to me. Strangely had he gone to Sweden I think they might have resisted the USís extradition attempt much more than the U.K.
From what I read at the time, the rape charges were what most people would call statutory rape, or minor offences which wouldn't be called "rape" in many countries- and were based on very weak evidence to begin with. One of the charges were dropped and the girl basically said she didn't care, or on reflection it was consensual, and of course there were rumors that the girls had been pressured by external forces to press charges to begin with.

So it makes sense that once the 'external forces' realized they couldn't get him to Sweden using that mechanism, or now didn't need to get him to Sweden because they could get him directly from the UK, the charges would be dropped.

I think the boy should've gone to Sweden to face rape charges. That's exactly what extradition is for. If they were bullshit charges then that's an issue for the Swedish court to determine.

But I do think he was legitimately scared about US extradition from Sweden - it's not rational to imprison yourself in a flat for 6 years to avoid spurious charges that are likely to lead to a 12 - 36 month sentence anyway.
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      04-11-2019, 11:15 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I dont say that at all.




Indeed, we are stil far far apart. I get why there are no chinese documents on wikileaks and you dont.
Wikileaks has not the same goal as you think it has.
I edited a remark below my last post in the time you made your post btw.
Hmm, maybe you donít either.

https://wikileaks.org/About.html

You donít say it, but you act like it.
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      04-11-2019, 11:17 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xQx View Post
But I do think he was legitimately scared about US extradition from Sweden -
Of course. He was afraid for getting accused for espionage in the US. I dont know what the max sentence is for that but its probably life or so (in a us prison....)

I think how it now looks he could get 5 years in the US?
But who knows how this really is going to play out.
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      04-11-2019, 11:19 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xQx View Post
From what I read at the time, the rape charges were what most people would call statutory rape, or minor offences which wouldn't be called "rape" in many countries- and were based on very weak evidence to begin with. One of the charges were dropped and the girl basically said she didn't care, or on reflection it was consensual, and of course there were rumors that the girls had been pressured by external forces to press charges to begin with.

So it makes sense that once the 'external forces' realized they couldn't get him to Sweden using that mechanism, or now didn't need to get him to Sweden because they could get him directly from the UK, the charges would be dropped.

I think the boy should've gone to Sweden to face rape charges. That's exactly what extradition is for. If they were bullshit charges then that's an issue for the Swedish court to determine.

But I do think he was legitimately scared about US extradition from Sweden - it's not rational to imprison yourself in a flat for 6 years to avoid spurious charges that are likely to lead to a 12 - 36 month sentence anyway.
People make miscalculations all the time. Assange knew he was poking the bear (a big ass one) and backed himself into a corner. Or in this case a country that would most assuredly extradite him much faster than another would.

As for the rape/sexual assault charges we will just have to disagree until further info comes out anyway.
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      04-11-2019, 11:22 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
You still dont get it what wikileaks is about.
Everyone knows what type of horrors are at play in russia, china etc.
We have countless intelligence agencies at work to uncover that.
A russian or chinese only has to read the western news to read what aweful things happen in their own countries.
And you can hardly call those countries democracies.

The point of wikileaks is to investigate and uncover what things are done by organisations/governments that are completely formed legally/democratically and for which they didnt get a mandate.

Really, you have the wrong idea about what the goal or idea of wikileaks is.

And the fact that you are baffled by that there are no chinese or NK or whatever documents only states that.

Its not about how many crimes and authrocities are commited in a country, but its about informing the electorate how many crimes and authrocities are comitted by organisations formed by that electorate and for which they lack the mandate.
Its about finding the non free aspects of the free world.
Finding the non free aspects in a dictatorship is well... carrying coals to Newcastle.
I don't get it? The West has freedom of the press and you act like nothing was ever exposed, whistle blown or reported on before Wikileaks/Assange came along.

How many average Chinese or NK citizens have access to Western news sources? Or Russians for that matter? Yes they are the ones most in need of a WikiLeaks
organization and a way to get it to the average citizen in countries like those.

Again we are far far apart on our thinking here..........
Wikileaks is about showcasing a certain extreme liberal arrogance. I would think a big Wikileaks fan would be a Jeremy Corbyn type.
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      04-11-2019, 11:27 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Wikileaks is about showcasing a certain extreme liberal arrogance. I would think a big Wikileaks fan would be a Jeremy Corbyn type.
According to the link I posted to Guido they are supposed to be about getting the unvarnished truth out. I didnít see anywhere about only against certain countries or political leanings. But, you seem to be right as Assange decided to basically mainly target the West/US, Obama admin, Hillary and the Dems.

But, it seems Iím being told they are the only ones need to be targeted?
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      04-11-2019, 11:29 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Hmm, maybe you don’t either.

https://wikileaks.org/About.html

You don’t say it, but you act like it.
Ok, then tell me this.
Why are there no chinese documents on wikileaks?
I gave you my explanation, and just to be clear, you havent even reacted on that content-related.

Wikileaks searches the boundries of press freedom. In china or russia there is no press freedom to begin with. Everything a chinese person can get out of the country he can happily drop at the washington post or der spiegel or any other western newspaper, and that newspaper will NEVER reveal their name because they're far beyond the graps of that chinese government.
But wikileaks specializes as a platform where documents can be placed that are sensitive in a way that even those newspapers can't guarantee their anonimity.
Is that so hard to understand? It shows the non free aspects of the free world. That is imho virtually not possible with a chinese document unless the us government is completely going to conspire with the chinese government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Wikileaks is about showcasing a certain extreme liberal arrogance. I would think a big Wikileaks fan would be a Jeremy Corbyn type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
But, you seem to be right as Assange decided to basically mainly target the West/US, Obama admin, Hillary and the Dems.
Interesting... in europe they are pro liberals and in the US anti liberals?
How does that work? (really simple if you leave out the liberal part btw....)
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      04-11-2019, 11:35 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Ok, then tell me this.
Why are there no chinese documents on wikileaks?
I gave you my explanation, and just to be clear, you havent even reacted on that content-related.

Wikileaks searches the boundries of press freedom. In china or russia there is no press freedom to begin with. Everything a chinese person can get out of the country he can happily drop at the washington post or der spiegel or any other western newspaper, and that newspaper will NEVER reveal their name because they're far beyond the graps of that chinese government.
But wikileaks specializes as a platform where documents can be placed that are sensitive in a way that even those newspapers can't guarantee their anonimity.
Is that so hard to understand? It shows the non free aspects of the free world. That is imho virtually not possible with a chinese document unless the us government is completely going to conspire with the chinese government.
I already said why, they’d just fucking kill him. Or worse stuff him so far down a hole in who knows where he’d never be heard from again. He also has a kid/family. Which is why I said at least with the US they aren’t going to go after his family etc and he has a shot at a fair trial.

Same with Putin/Russia.

WikiLeaks has/had a great sounding mission statement. But in reality they know who they can and can’t fuck with if they want to stay alive or not put their families in danger.
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      04-11-2019, 11:39 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I already said why, they’d just fucking kill him. Or worse stuff him so far down a hole in who knows where he’d never be heard from again. He also has a kid/family. Which is why I said at least with the US they aren’t going to go after his family etc and he has a shot at a fair trial.

Same with Putin/Russia.

WikiLeaks has/had a great sounding mission statement. But in reality they know who they can and can’t fuck with if they want to stay alive or not put their families in danger.
I think thats a bit far fetched.
It would mean that every journalist in europe/US would shit its pants to write stuff about china/russia.
And thats not really the case. They are all waiting in line to publish whatever they can get their hands on.
Otherwise we wouldn't read anything about russia and china in the papers, and thats not true.
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      04-11-2019, 11:49 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I think thats a bit far fetched.
It would mean that every journalist in europe/US would shit its pants to write stuff about china/russia.
And thats not really the case. They are all waiting in line to publish whatever they can get their hands on.
Otherwise we wouldn't read anything about russia and china in the papers, and thats not true.
Do you hear yourself? It’s farfetched for China or Russia to just kill/imprison dissidents or enemies of the state? Wow........

It’s one thing to write a story about something happening in Russia and China. It’s an entirely different level to work with a spy stealing classified state secrets and posting the original source material/documents/videos etc.

As for your previous theory, I posted WikiLeaks mission statement to you and you ignored it. In it they said they’ve never revealed a source (maybe they didn’t, but sources have been revealed). They claim to be way more secure than any other media outlet and virtually guarantee anonymity. So according to them your Chinese national would have a lot more luck with them than WaPo or Det Spiegel etc.

Last edited by minn19; 04-11-2019 at 11:58 PM..
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      04-11-2019, 11:59 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Do you hear yourself? It’s farfetched for China or Russia to just kill/imprison dissidents or enemies of the state? Wow........
In the US?
When does that happen? When was a journalist killed in the US by the russians or chinese?!?

Quote:
It’s one thing to write a story about something happening in Russia and China. It’s an entirely different level to work with a spy stealing classified state secrets and posting the original source material/documents/videos etc.
And where do you think journalist get that info to write a unique story?
You think they meet in secret in that windy corner on the Tiananmen Square?
It gets mailed to a mailbox from the newspaper. simple as that.


Quote:
As for you previous theory, I posted WikiLeaks mission statement to you and you ignored it. In it they said they’ve never revealed a source (maybe they didn’t, but sources have been revealed). They claim to be way more secure than any other media outlet and virtually guarantee anonymity. So according to them your Chinese national would have a lot more luck with them than WaPo or Det Spiegel etc.
I know what the mission statement says.
A chinese national could upload to wikileaks, but he could just as wel give it to any western newspaper. You think the chinese are going to murder the complete newspaper staff? If one journalist writes the piece it doesnt mean a chinese dissident mailed it to him and that journalist helped smuggle out stuff or what. Its all digital and goes to a mailbox from the newspaper. The chinese government can't put any pressure on that (the complete newspaper company) but a western government could if it would be classified documents.

Really, I dont think Assange is afraid of the chinese or russians. Not as long as he doesn't go to those countries, and he probably wouldnt, that would be stupid.
He's anti-establishment, so probably even more anti russian and anti china than anti-US

Also I dont think that fear would prevent Assange of doing something. He has spend years in hiding, and never stopped with wikileaks.
If he was a fearful man he would have stopped years ago and struck a deal in secret with the US government, but he has been a constant pest to them for all those years..

3rd possiblility is of course that nothing comes out of china and russia and that there is nothing to report. That nobody uploads anything to wikileaks from those parts.
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      04-12-2019, 12:18 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
In the US?
When does that happen? When was a journalist killed in the US by the russians or chinese?!?


And where do you think journalist get that info to write a unique story?
You think they meet in secret in that windy corner on the Tiananmen Square?
It gets mailed to a mailbox from the newspaper. simple as that.



I know what the mission statement says.
A chinese national could upload to wikileaks, but he could just as wel give it to any western newspaper. You think the chinese are going to murder the complete newspaper staff? If one journalist writes the piece it doesnt mean a chinese dissident mailed it to him and that journalist helped smuggle out stuff or what. Its all digital and goes to a mailbox from the newspaper. The chinese government can't put any pressure on that (the complete newspaper company) but a western government could if it would be classified documents.

Really, I dont think Assange is afraid of the chinese or russians. Not as long as he doesn't go to those countries, and he probably wouldnt, that would be stupid.
He's anti-establishment, so probably even more anti russian and anti china than anti-US

Also I dont think that fear would prevent Assange of doing something. He has spend years in hiding, and never stopped with wikileaks.
If he was a fearful man he would have stopped years ago and struck a deal in secret with the US government, but he has been a constant pest to them for all those years..

3rd possiblility is of course that nothing comes out of china and russia and that there is nothing to report. That nobody uploads anything to wikileaks from those parts.
I never said the US.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...lled_in_Russia

https://www.apnews.com/cfbe9fb70d4943e1881be5157b221cca

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/12/2...thout-borders/

Assange not afraid? Did you see the video today? That was a man scared shitless to face trial in the US. I can’t imagine how much worse he would feel if he knew the Russians or Chinese were coming for him instead.

Nothing to report in Russia or China? This has gotten beyond silly now.

These journalists that were killed or imprisoned did far less than spy and steal/publish state secrets from their countries. They were mostly just writing criticisms of their respective governments.
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      04-12-2019, 12:39 AM   #108
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New York Times Co. v. United States, 403 U.S. 713 (1971),[1] was a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court on the First Amendment. The ruling made it possible for The New York Times and The Washington Post newspapers to publish the then-classified Pentagon Papers without risk of government censorship or punishment
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      04-12-2019, 12:49 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I never said the US.
I know, but outside the US (or outside germany or whatever western world country) isn't relevant. If documents are transferred digitally, why would the US reporter go to russia or china?

I mean do you honestly think that Assange travels to all the countries that he gets data from? No of course not. Why would that be different if the data would come from china or russia?
Yet you imply that that has to be the case somehow...because you never said US.....
Apparantly a journalist has to travel to the country of origin if he gets classified documents in his mailbox in your view?


Quote:
Assange not afraid? Did you see the video today? That was a man scared shitless to face trial in the US.
They why didnt he stop with wikileaks?
There is a difference between being afraid for a trial and being afraid that you stop working. I thought I wrote that clear in my post, but apparantly not.
A man that is wanted by the US government because of his work and lives in exile for 8 years or whatever and still continues his work because he feels he has to (he's not making huge amounts of money off it) isn't a scared man in my book.
That he looks scared or whatever during the few seconds we see him during his arrest gives in my book not sufficient information to judge his character (who knows what happend before, inside etc). Obviously he's under a lot of emotional stress at this point. Everyone would be.
And that he doesn't want to face trial in the US... for sure, he didnt spend all that time in exile/on the run for nothing.

Quote:
Nothing to report in Russia or China? This has gotten beyond silly now.
That was a hypothetical question.....
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Last edited by GuidoK; 04-12-2019 at 01:17 AM..
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      04-12-2019, 12:50 AM   #110
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high treason? lmfao
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