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      10-08-2019, 12:56 PM   #1
SteveinArizona
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More emissions cheating

To paraphrase a song from my youth -- "Will it ever end?"

https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa...-labels-number

The worst mileage cheating seems to be Ford hybrids and Kia and Hyundai vehicles. The rest seems pretty immaterial to me.

But I wonder about the pollution issues. How much additional pollution did the cars spew into the air? I didn't see any results on that.
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      10-08-2019, 01:12 PM   #2
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The future will be cleaner....
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      10-08-2019, 01:32 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
The future will be cleaner....
Eh, this would be accurate depending on where you live. Some places use Hydro for power instead of burning coal.
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      10-11-2019, 07:18 PM   #4
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64% of global electricity produced by combusting hydrocarbons in 2018.

https://www.iea.org/geco/electricity/

Reading the iea summary on electricity in the link, electric vehicles are not mentioned once.
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      10-11-2019, 07:25 PM   #5
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VW does it again. Thanks for the update.
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      10-11-2019, 07:31 PM   #6
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VW does it again. Thanks for the update.
Your update or VW ?
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      10-11-2019, 08:19 PM   #7
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The equivalent of an electric vehicle mpg is about 90mpg that taken into account everything. If that's accurate then, then electric vehicles should be more efficient, but the problem is I don't know if they take into account EVERYTHING. How about the cost of mining Lithium? How about the cost of recycling old Li-on batteries? Another thing is the amount of Lithium raw materials on the entire earth is limited and even more so than oil. So if everybody were to drive an electric car, they may not be enough lithium raw materials for everybody.

I hope they look into fuel cell. Although you also need battery to store the energy generated from fuel cell but the amount of batteries here is not as much as a pure battery-powered car.
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      10-11-2019, 08:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
Your update or VW ?
EPAs update. https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa...-labels-number

VW owns all the brands in the article.
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      10-11-2019, 08:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
The future will be cleaner....
It's actually more efficient to burn hydrocarbons at a plant, especially a gas-turbine, and transmit the electricity to your charger, than to burn gas in your own individual combustion engine.
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      10-11-2019, 08:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
The equivalent of an electric vehicle mpg is about 90mpg that taken into account everything. If that's accurate then, then electric vehicles should be more efficient, but the problem is I don't know if they take into account EVERYTHING. How about the cost of mining Lithium? How about the cost of recycling old Li-on batteries? Another thing is the amount of Lithium raw materials on the entire earth is limited and even more so than oil. So if everybody were to drive an electric car, they may not be enough lithium raw materials for everybody.

I hope they look into fuel cell. Although you also need battery to store the energy generated from fuel cell but the amount of batteries here is not as much as a pure battery-powered car.
How about the cost of building ships, trains, trucks to carry fuel, the machines and fuel required to build all of those things, the fuel used getting that fuel to places...etc. When you think about it, the amount of infrastructure that has to "power" delivering gas to your gas station is huge. We may not have full electric infrastructure, but we at least have enough to run some cars on electricity and it's clear that will be far more efficient than having to transport fuel all over the place to these end-user locations.
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      10-11-2019, 10:03 PM   #11
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Ocean freight, aka steamships are one of our biggest problems. I’d wager if Elon could come up with an all electric cargo vessel we’d see a much greener future.
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      10-11-2019, 10:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgmarsh39 View Post
Ocean freight, aka steamships are one of our biggest problems. Id wager if Elon could come up with an all electric cargo vessel wed see a much greener future.
True, but reducing our dependence on oil in general, which would include foreign oil, would be a huge benefit, plus, that means more for the military to power their machines and train.
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      10-11-2019, 10:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
The future will be cleaner....
This is such a hilariously bad meme. Ouch.
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      10-11-2019, 11:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
How about the cost of building ships, trains, trucks to carry fuel, the machines and fuel required to build all of those things, the fuel used getting that fuel to places...etc. When you think about it, the amount of infrastructure that has to "power" delivering gas to your gas station is huge.
That's a valid point. When we measure MPG of an ICE car, we don't take into account those things. And of course it will be impossible since there are just too many variables. I guess when they calculate the MPG of an electric car, they probably stop at the power station. That is equivalently, how much oil (or energy) for the power company to generate one charge per car ... Taking everything into account probably not possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
We may not have full electric infrastructure, but we at least have enough to run some cars on electricity and it's clear that will be far more efficient than having to transport fuel all over the place to these end-user locations.
I understand electric cars are more efficient than ICE cars overall. My point is the amount of Lithium that can be extracted is limited just like oil so eventually you will run into supply issues.
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      10-12-2019, 12:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
The equivalent of an electric vehicle mpg is about 90mpg that taken into account everything
Not here where electricity is over 30 cents a KW hour and is randomly turned off for "fire risk".
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      10-12-2019, 12:54 AM   #16
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Not here where electricity is over 30 cents a KW hour and is randomly turned off for "fire risk".
What does it have to do with 30 cents a KW?
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      10-12-2019, 01:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eluded View Post
Not here where electricity is over 30 cents a KW hour and is randomly turned off for "fire risk".
What does it have to do with 30 cents a KW?
Cost equivalent MPG converts electrical energy usage of EVs and PHEVs to its equivalent in gasoline based on cost. For example, if gas price is $4.00/gallon, an electric car that could go 100 miles on $4.00 worth of electricity would have cost equivalent MPG of 100.
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      10-12-2019, 01:58 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Cost equivalent MPG converts electrical energy usage of EVs and PHEVs to its equivalent in gasoline based on cost. For example, if gas price is $4.00/gallon, an electric car that could go 100 miles on $4.00 worth of electricity would have cost equivalent MPG of 100.
What if the power station is powered by nuclear or coal?
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      10-12-2019, 09:01 AM   #19
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Quote:
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What does it have to do with 30 cents a KW?
US average is 14 cents per kWh?
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Last edited by Efthreeoh; 10-12-2019 at 09:10 AM..
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      10-12-2019, 09:10 AM   #20
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Based on US average of $2.64/gal. Gasoline is 8 cents per kilowatt hour. Average US electrical price is 13.7 cents per kilowatt hour. Maybe we need to spend R&D on increasing the efficiency of burning gasoline...
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      10-12-2019, 11:51 AM   #21
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I just did a real rough CO2 per kWh calculation comparing my local utility emissions to an X3. Far from precise but it tells me that plug power (electricity from a wall socket) generates approx an order of magnitude less CO2/kWh than running a modern IC engine.

What does that mean, and who cares? Good questions.

Last edited by chassis; 10-12-2019 at 01:35 PM..
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      10-12-2019, 12:24 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgmarsh39 View Post
Ocean freight, aka steamships are one of our biggest problems. Id wager if Elon could come up with an all electric cargo vessel wed see a much greener future.
What's wrong with wind power for ships?



Only fitting to use this picture on Columbus Day weekend.....
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