04-20-2017, 11:22 AM | #45 | |
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04-20-2017, 12:04 PM | #46 | |
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This is where I would normally walk away from debate, but, simply cannot since someone might be reading after buying AWD vehicle and ignore the need for winter tires, and (hopefully not) pay dearly for it. It's great that all season tires worked for you your whole life, I'm not saying it's impossible to drive on them, but from personal experience I'm trying to tell you there's a lot better and safer choices to make. Remember in my family we have both AWD and RWD currently, (and have owned FWD vehicles in the past), always with good winter tires except for the few years when I was young and naive (and with less disposable income). Same as you, I got around on all season tires just fine. I have also lived in Northeast for 20+ years and drive exclusively FWD vehicles in Europe frequently (sometimes in areas where standards of road maintenance don't quite meet North American standards, areas that are a lot more diverse terrain wise than Norteast). Seems that you don't want to hear the other side of argument, instead you just keep repeating things that work for you as best possible solution and reasons to dismiss RWD or FWD vehicle purchase. On one hand you're arguing how you live in snowy area, nasty 5% of the country with lots of snow days, on the other, you dismiss use of winter tires. Sorry but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. All you have to do is to try driving with and without winter tires on the same road, same day, doesn't even have to be same vehicle, same drivetrain is desirable for this "test" though. You would quickly realize the difference in grip levels, cornering, stopping power and confidence winter tires can bring to your driving. And yes, it's that much better with AWD, but not with AWD on all season tires, no way !!! This I know for a fact since I tried it myself and have driven behind one too many AWD vehicles on all season tires struggling to find grip on nasty days. But fine, don't trust some random person on the internet forum, here's first google hit on winter tires. A bit more specific link to AWD. Last edited by Bbb34; 04-20-2017 at 12:39 PM.. |
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04-20-2017, 12:46 PM | #47 | |
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I agree that the argument for AWD to avoid running snow tires is flawed thinking and is very, very common. I do understand the idea of storing and swapping wheels twice a year is not desirable for many, but tire stores and dealers often have solutions for this, and this is the cost of truly safe winter driving. What good is more grip for better acceleration with AWD, when you have the same limited stopping and cornering grip of a less than ideal winter tire? Stopping and steering, the true measures of safety are the same on a RWD and AWD model given the same set of tires. And when someone says they use the power grip of the front wheel to steer, I call BS, that doesn't help, actually hinders, and doesn't factor at all in practical higher speed maneuvering.
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04-20-2017, 12:59 PM | #48 |
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One small item that was part of my decision:
In northeast ohio, the roads are snowy, icy, or very wet something like 1/2 of the year, and this is my daily driver. Sure, you can be completely safe and capable of getting where you're going with RWD and appropriate tires. But... I'm paying for a high performance car, and trying to accelerate quickly on slick surfaces with only two wheels is limiting the power delivery quite a bit. I want to be able to use the horsepower I paid for more of the year, so I went with AWD. Sure it doesn't get as sideways as RWD when you want to... but it gets sideways enough, especially on snowy parking lots. If it was my second car, I would have gone RWD all the way (though I'm starting to rethink that, I actually like the AWD driving dynamics so far). |
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04-20-2017, 03:49 PM | #49 |
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xdrive all day, it's so nice to have immediate thrust under full boost in 1st gear.
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04-20-2017, 04:14 PM | #50 |
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I live in a cold place
AWD or FWD for the daily driver I much prefer RWD for the toss-ability but not even a consideration for daily driver. Daily drivers get shared in the family. Had a RWD before that a less capable family member managed to lose control on a clear day but on a wet surface. Family first. Fun car after.
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04-20-2017, 04:18 PM | #51 | |
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04-20-2017, 06:14 PM | #52 | |
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04-20-2017, 08:32 PM | #53 |
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I don't understand why there's such a pervasive anti - X drive bias on this forum. Having just come from a Quattro Audi, I think X drive feels just as good. Also, on BMWs website, X drive models either match or outperform their RWD counterparts in 0 - 60 times. (FACT: If the M models came with X drive they would be faster to 60). They are still primarily RWD with a 60/40 split. (X1 excluded). I just drove my friend's RWD F30 in Dallas this weekend as a comparison and I don't buy the argument that the suspension is in any way superior to the X drive.
And this: https://www.google.com/amp/jalopnik....1792513795/amp Last edited by Strudle; 04-20-2017 at 08:40 PM.. |
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04-20-2017, 09:00 PM | #54 |
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Agree. Love the xDrive in my every day car.
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04-21-2017, 06:10 AM | #55 | |
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04-21-2017, 07:11 AM | #56 | |
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You surely will agree those are "the best" performance vehicles BMW has to ofer? I wouldn't call it bias against xDrive though. Those of us criticizing it do so mostly because of slightly higher center of gravity (higher by 10 or 20mm comparing to available RWD options) and additional weight making somewhat softer base suspension feel less sporty. All you have to do is search for something like "upgrading xDrive suspension" in these forums, you will find many threads on the subject. Maybe this all gets addressed in next generation (or rumored xDrive M car) to come. Now you say you don't feel any difference between the two and that's great, some of us do. But I also doubt you can tell the difference of 0.2 sec. in acceleration between the two in blind test. To me xDrive with stock suspension understeers slightly when compared to RWD, feels (and it is) heavier and has more body roll than I would want. I think they are great, I really do, and keep repeating that, but it's just not exactly how I'd want it. In addition, I find other manufacturers to be more competitive with BMW in AWD segment than RWD. Bottom line, we all vote with our money, no need convincing each other one is better than other, or trashing other's choice. I'm happy with my choice and just trying to offer different point of view. |
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04-21-2017, 09:12 AM | #57 | |
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04-21-2017, 09:34 AM | #59 | ||||
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04-21-2017, 09:38 AM | #60 | |
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I have to ask though, have you tried it with good winter tires - do you know for a fact it's impossible? How do you think people did it in the past, remember, Benz and BMW in the past had mostly RWD cars. Did everyone just wait for spring with their family in the car at the spot they got caught by snowstorm? AWD absolutely does it better with same tires, no doubt, but can also get in trouble "from a stop on the hill in a snowstorm", contrary to popular belief, they actually can't fly in the snowstorm either. |
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04-21-2017, 09:39 AM | #61 | |
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Note the M5 is confirmed to be xDrive only next generation.
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04-21-2017, 09:45 AM | #62 | |
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I read about it possibly being xDrive but didn't know it was confirmed.
And that might be the best thing that ever happened to xDrive, I have zero issue with xDrive as a technology or way BMW implemented it comparing to others. It's different shades of gray, who can for sure say which one is best, who cares anyway. I just have an issue with lack of suspension choice on xDrive for current generation. Quote:
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04-21-2017, 09:58 AM | #63 |
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Could someone quickly elaborate on the major differences on the suspension system in the RWD vs Xdrive models? Heard that the suspense on the RWD models are "sportier" than Xdrive's?
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04-21-2017, 10:30 AM | #64 | |
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I feel like xDrive was utility focused for the snow belt market. Imagine how much sales they would lose to Audi and others if they don't have xDrive. You don't add 10mm ride height to add performance.
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04-21-2017, 10:34 AM | #65 | |
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"Sport" suspension is not offered on xDrive models. If you look at the option list, it's a distinct difference. The Sport and M Sport packages for RWD have 'sport suspension' and "Adaptive M Sport suspension". The Sport and M Sport packages for xDrive do not include the word sport.. the sport/msport packages default to the same suspension as the non-sport package xDrive. Sport suspension means shorter, stiffer springs (lower the car, make it stiffer to start with). Note that even stock to stock (non-sport) suspensions differ between RWD and xDrive (as they should). Though some of the differences are driven by market segment rather than performance (xDrive is softer than it has to be, I believe, due to the desires of most people who buy RWD vs AWD). My opinion based on what I've read about adaptive suspensions is: Adaptive allows you to get the same wheel control with softer springs, getting the 'best' of both worlds. Does that mean that stiffer springs with lower ride height wouldn't help even more? And you can get Adaptive M-Sport suspension on the RWD, which has the stiffer, lower springs AND the adaptive dampers. |
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04-21-2017, 10:39 AM | #66 |
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Msport package on RWD has standard M suspension that's 10mm lower than regular suspension. Msport package on AWD has regular xDrive suspension that's the softest version of all F30 suspensions. Even if you paid $700 for M Adaptive it doesn't lower 10mm for xDrive. You're forced to go after market if you want it lower.
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Last edited by hollandog; 04-21-2017 at 10:55 AM.. |
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