[WilliCO]

Originally Posted by Thumper333

Engine braking does NOT stop wheels, it only slows them (short of stalling or turning off the engine LOL). Engine braking is the proper way to slow a vehicle in poor conditions especially snow, that goes for any car; FWD/RWD/AWD.

This is true, simply because the wheels will never lock and slide when engine braking, on any surface. The engine is providing resistance to the wheels' motion but is not trying to stop them like the brakes are. As you say.

I actually find it a little hard to engine brake effectively with these 8-speed transmissions. There are so many gears. My old Explorer has a 4-speed automatic with a push-button overdrive, I can come all the way down from Summit County sometimes without using my brakes too much at all.

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by Thumper333

That is your choice, however that does not change reality. I will pay more for AWD+snow tires and I will have better grip and snow performance than your RWD with snow tires.

That is like me buying a 4K TV and Blu Ray player and then posting on a Hi-Def forum complaining that my picture quality is crap...........while using 30 gauge RCA cables to connect everything and when pointed out that better cables will yield better quality, complaining that I will NOT buy better cables because I'll just replace the TV in a few year.

Your analogy makes sense and truth be told, is pretty entertaining. There is one caveat though. Even the best quality hi-def cables don't cost $800-1000 (set of snows) and the 4K TV doesn't cost $57,000 (new 435xi). Apples and bowling balls comparison.

[Thumper333]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

All that is fine and dandy, but this was originally a RWD + snow tires vs. AWD + all season tires discussion. Lack of friction at the tire level inhibits the potential of what an AWD vehicle can do for you.

But then you are setting up the discussion weighted to fail. The discussion itself is pointless as it is illogical.

What is the point?

It's like telling Albert Einstein to prove his theories, but he's not allowed to use math.

Why not just give the AWD summer tires and prove your point even more? LOL

In any scientific test one must eliminate as many variables as possible. In a test with RWD+snows and AWD+ AS, you have two variables, so you can not test a single difference. As you said, ultimately it is the tires that decide traction (the drive wheels in use decide how if at all that traction is used), so if you are trying to decide if RWD is better than AWD in the snow, but purposefully hampering the traction devices as a variable between the two........you arrive at a flawed conclusion.

Granted, the Audi system is better than BMWs unless of course you are on a solid ice sheet where the torsen is weak and the direct drive is not, but again, would you rather have an AWD that is slow to react but DOES react? Or a RWD that can not react at all?

Originally Posted by WillInDenver

I actually find it a little hard to engine brake effectively with these 8-speed transmissions. There are so many gears. My old Explorer has a 4-speed automatic with a push-button overdrive, I can come all the way down from Summit County sometimes without using my brakes too much at all.

Just takes practice, obviously dumping 3 gears at once, while not locking the wheels, will cause traction loss for a short time at least. Figuring out the good RPM to drop a gear just takes practice.

Originally Posted by auf Deutsche

Your analogy makes sense and truth be told, is pretty entertaining. There is one caveat though. Even the best quality hi-def cables don't cost $800-1000 (set of snows) and the 4K TV doesn't cost $57,000 (new 435xi). Apples and bowling balls comparison.

Not really, it's a perfect example as it's another thing people do without thinking about the support parts required for full benefit.

As for price, shall we talk comparison? As you stated a 4K TV doesn't cost $57k, it cost what $2k? And good cables easily $100-200 (gold plated, thick). So roughly 10% of the cost of the prime component.

What percentage is $800 of $57k?

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Thumper333

But then you are setting up the discussion weighted to fail. The discussion itself is pointless as it is illogical.

What is the point?

It's like telling Albert Einstein to prove his theories, but he's not allowed to use math.

Why not just give the AWD summer tires and prove your point even more? LOL

In any scientific test one must eliminate as many variables as possible. In a test with RWD+snows and AWD+ AS, you have two variables, so you can not test a single difference. As you said, ultimately it is the tires that decide traction (the drive wheels in use decide how if at all that traction is used), so if you are trying to decide if RWD is better than AWD in the snow, but purposefully hampering the traction devices as a variable between the two........you arrive at a flawed conclusion.

Granted, the Audi system is better than BMWs unless of course you are on a solid ice sheet where the torsen is weak and the direct drive is not, but again, would you rather have an AWD that is slow to react but DOES react? Or a RWD that can not react at all?

Exactly! But the most debated topic around here seems to be "RWD + snow tires vs. AWD + all season tires".

As for the Torsen, isn't it only weak if one wheel has virtually no friction? (Torsen requires all tires have some level of traction - not free spinning.) If all the wheels are on ice, then they would have similar traction across the board.

Obviously you could have a system that applies brake to the wheel that is free spinning to get moving - it just wouldn't be a "performance" solution. Isn't this the case with the xDrive anyways because it as open front and rear differentials?

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by WillInDenver

This is true, simply because the wheels will never lock and slide when engine braking, on any surface. The engine is providing resistance to the wheels' motion but is not trying to stop them like the brakes are. As you say.

I actually find it a little hard to engine brake effectively with these 8-speed transmissions. There are so many gears. My old Explorer has a 4-speed automatic with a push-button overdrive, I can come all the way down from Summit County sometimes without using my brakes too much at all.

Engine braking still makes me nervous because any sudden change in acceleration is cause for loss of traction. Granted, it's probably safer than hitting the brakes.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

Engine braking still makes me nervous because any sudden change in acceleration is cause for loss of traction. Granted, it's probably safer than hitting the brakes.

Are we talking about a scenario where we have an extremely long hill that we're going to get brake fade with light to medium braking?

The bottom line is you need to reconsider going down a hill where your brakes cannot effectively stop you in an emergency.

It seems like the cases where you need AWD, and RWD won't cut it have been the following fringe/outlier cases:

1. Some guy claiming to have a drive way allegedly with a 40% grade. (Even a Humvee which has ridiculous gearing can only climb a 60% grade in perfect conditions/surface with the transfer case in LOW.) Yet, somehow a AWD xDrive 3 series can climb that 40% grade driveway in deep snow/ice.

2. You are descending down a long hill that is SO long that it will cause you to get brake fade under constant light and medium braking force. (Think about how hard you have to drive/brake on a track to get brake fade).

[34.50]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Completely agree, rwd + snows is adequate just like AWD + all seasons is adequate.

This is complete crap. While the AWD will accelerate, it won't stop well, nor will it drive well. Your car is only good as its tires, which are the contact point. Without good winter tires (no matter fwd/rwd/awd), you're going to have a tough time.

Trust me, I did this last year with my 335xi and I was too lazy/cheap to get winter tires. It was a horrible experience in upstate NY winter.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

Tires given you traction. xDrive puts power to 4 wheels.

Without traction, the quantity of power to wheels is useless.

Add in braking and turning with low traction. Fun. Which would you prefer: Getting stuck or not stopping? Snow tires are for snow.

Now lets watch Buddy and his amazing 500hp awd gtr and no snow tires flail around like an idiot because he spent 100k on a car and couldn't be bothered to spend 1% of that on snows

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by menncars

Add in braking and turning with low traction. Fun. Which would you prefer: Getting stuck or not stopping? Snow tires are for snow.

Now lets watch Buddy and his amazing 500hp awd gtr and no snow tires flail around like an idiot because he spent 100k on a car and couldn't be bothered to spend 1% of that on snows

This!

It's always laughable when you see an expensive branded car do a complete 360 on a residential street when it snows. People tend to not want to help out someone who spent $100k on their car and couldn't to be bothered to spend less than 1% of that cost on proper tires than someone who lives way more modestly and has trouble getting up a hill in a Honda Civic.

Don't be that guy! The guy with an expensive car spinning his tires and going no where because he failed to plan and prepare.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by 300hp

AWD with all seasons is perfectly fine and rwd needs winters. That's all there is to this. Awd and winters is obviously the number one set up

Any drive system on snow tires is better than all seasons. You're headed down a snowy hill. A kid runs out on the street. Now, how is AWD, FWD, or RWD going to make a difference? You only need to hit someone once with your car to make a tragic difference. In snow, snow tires are the way to go.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by menncars

Any drive system on snow tires is better than all seasons. You're headed down a snowy hill. A kid runs out on the street. Now, how is AWD, FWD, or RWD going to make a difference? You only need to hit someone once with your car to make a tragic difference. In snow, snow tires are the way to go.

He's just going to tell the parents and cops, "I thought AWD with all seasons were good enough..." OR "But I was engine braking with an AWD car..."

[335BOY]

Can't follow his logic.

[WilliCO]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Are we talking about a scenario where we have an extremely long hill that we're going to get brake fade with light to medium braking?

The bottom line is you need to reconsider going down a hill where your brakes cannot effectively stop you in an emergency.

It seems like the cases where you need AWD, and RWD won't cut it have been the following fringe/outlier cases:

1. Some guy claiming to have a drive way allegedly with a 40% grade. (Even a Humvee which has ridiculous gearing can only climb a 60% grade in perfect conditions/surface with the transfer case in LOW.) Yet, somehow a AWD xDrive 3 series can climb that 40% grade driveway in deep snow/ice.

2. You are descending down a long hill that is SO long that it will cause you to get brake fade under constant light and medium braking force. (Think about how hard you have to drive/brake on a track to get brake fade).

When we come down the hill from skiing or camping, we descend about 6500 feet in a space of 60 miles with some ups and downs along the way. Generally when I'm making this drive on wet or snowy roads and I feel speed beginning to pick up, I drop a gear rather than hitting the brake, and let it roll. This is also what all the semis do.

Not only is it better for control on slippery roads, but it also saves the brakes - there's nothing worse for them than being ridden down a long descent for the purpose of bleeding off speed.

Generally, I don't go around town using engine braking rather than my brakes though.

[Thumper333]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Exactly! But the most debated topic around here seems to be "RWD + snow tires vs. AWD + all season tires".

As for the Torsen, isn't it only weak if one wheel has virtually no friction? (Torsen requires all tires have some level of traction - not free spinning.) If all the wheels are on ice, then they would have similar traction across the board.

Obviously you could have a system that applies brake to the wheel that is free spinning to get moving - it just wouldn't be a "performance" solution. Isn't this the case with the xDrive anyways because it as open front and rear differentials?

Again, people who are biased will weight the discussion in their favor instead of opening their mind and admitting what they don't know.

You are correct on both parts, torsen requires at least some traction, on a solid sheet of smooth ice, traction will be basically zero as the system goes from a little traction to no traction and back and forth. It would struggle in this rare situation.

The xDrive is not the best performance solution as it operates as you stated, with open diff's and brake controls. Both are very good in the normal snow conditions you will find with the xDrive being better in just that one situation of nearly zero traction with torsen winning out on the track.

Originally Posted by 34.50

This is complete crap. While the AWD will accelerate, it won't stop well, nor will it drive well. Your car is only good as its tires, which are the contact point. Without good winter tires (no matter fwd/rwd/awd), you're going to have a tough time.

Trust me, I did this last year with my 335xi and I was too lazy/cheap to get winter tires. It was a horrible experience in upstate NY winter.

Your outburst adds nothing. Your experience of using an AWD without the proper tires speaks only to your own judgement, not the abilities of the AWD system you set up to fail.

Perhaps you should open your mind (and your wallet), get some snow tires for snow and see how well the AWD does with the proper equipment.

Or just continue spewing uninformed rants on the internet.

[mump]

I have been following all 5 pages of this. Here is my input, for what it is worth. I have a E93 335is, which is on winter tires (on its 3 season, they need to be replaced for next season - my 335is as a total of 36k miles, winters on from nov-ar every yr). I also have a F30 328i xdrive which up to this week was on pretty much worn out all-seasons (had 32k miles on the tires/car up until 2 weeks ago).

The xdrive with worn out all-seasons out performed my 335is in the winter snow. I live on the side of a pretty steep hill where I would have to turn off my DTC for the IS and spin my way up the hill, where the xdrive had no issues, no slippage at all even with 32k miles. 2 weeks ago, I got a right rear blow out from a nail. I replace my 328ix with dedicated winters , it feels invincible. Granted new winters will feel better than used winters but i know the AWD all seasons were already outperforming my winters in the RWD.

I hope I am wrong, I am going to take a job that requires a commute through mountains and in my heart I don't want to give up my 335is, but i also know that a AWD vehicle is the way to go. Maybe the community knows what is a good AWD vehicle to my IS, I am thinking either a Golf R or Audi TTS... help!?

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by mump

I have been following all 5 pages of this. Here is my input, for what it is worth. I have a E93 335is, which is on winter tires (on its 3 season, they need to be replaced for next season - my 335is as a total of 36k miles, winters on from nov-ar every yr). I also have a F30 328i xdrive which up to this week was on pretty much worn out all-seasons (had 32k miles on the tires/car up until 2 weeks ago).

The xdrive with worn out all-seasons out performed my 335is in the winter snow. I live on the side of a pretty steep hill where I would have to turn off my DTC for the IS and spin my way up the hill, where the xdrive had no issues, no slippage at all even with 32k miles. 2 weeks ago, I got a right rear blow out from a nail. I replace my 328ix with dedicated winters , it feels invincible. Granted new winters will feel better than used winters but i know the AWD all seasons were already outperforming my winters in the RWD.

I hope I am wrong, I am going to take a job that requires a commute through mountains and in my heart I don't want to give up my 335is, but i also know that a AWD vehicle is the way to go. Maybe the community knows what is a good AWD vehicle to my IS, I am thinking either a Golf R or Audi TTS... help!?

Audi S4 would be my pick for an AWD sports sedan.

But again, how do you define "outperforming"? If you're talking about forward traction in deep snow, then yes, AWD is pretty good at that. If you're talking about driving on a highway with hard packed snow during a commute, then any car with winter tires will "outperform" a car without winter tires because there is way more control at speed.

[WilliCO]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Audi S4 would be my pick for an AWD sports sedan.

Mine as well, though the just-announced Mercedes C450 AMG looks interesting too. Go read about it before you poo-poo it for being a Mercedes.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Audi S4 would be my pick for an AWD sports sedan.

But again, how do you define "outperforming"? If you're talking about forward traction in deep snow, then yes, AWD is pretty good at that. If you're talking about driving on a highway with hard packed snow during a commute, then any car with winter tires will "outperform" a car without winter tires because there is way more control at speed.

.....and BRAKING. Well said.

[Thumper333]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

But again, how do you define "outperforming"? If you're talking about forward traction in deep snow, then yes, AWD is pretty good at that. If you're talking about driving on a highway with hard packed snow during a commute, then any car with winter tires will "outperform" a car without winter tires because there is way more control at speed.

Obviously in snow a car with the right tires will perform better than a car without. That has nothing to do with drive-type. I mean, at that point we might as well debate how a 328i performs better on 89 octane than a 328d does. LMAO


An AWD with snow tires will outperform a FWD/RWD car on snow tires everyday of the week in any situation you devise. Starting, stopping, and turning. Sitting in stop and go traffic is a pointless device as clearly, outside any other occurrences creeping along at 5mph the difference between types is minimal. But if that is the defining situation to determine our car choices, why are we not all in Honda Civic's? Or Kia Rio's even? The difference between ANY car in that situation is minimal.

Going AWD is for those times when you can open it up, or the weekend trips, or anything else that we do in our cars. I mean, seriously....do you guys spend your entire life in stop and go bumper traffic? LOL

Eh, going in circles at this point, to each their own. I will continue to recognize and enjoy the benefits and enjoyment AWD offer. Others are welcome to learn and grow, or not.

[HockeyDad]

My input:

I'm in North Texas, and as the "northerners" know, we are f'ing clueless on how to drive on snow and ice. We got about 1/2' to 1" of SLEET Sunday night into Monday morning. That type of event shuts down this part of the country - schools closed, businesses closed, etc. I have a 2015 M3 with Pilot Super Sports - no way IN HELL did it leave the garage. However, I also have a 2009 328 xDrive coupe that we got in late December. I put Bridgestone Potenza all season run flats on it last month, and it handled literally EVERYthing that I could throw at it. Granted, we're talking about only an inch of ice, but starting, stopping, and even a bit of drifting was not problem at all. I was really impressed with the little xDrive coupe and what it was capable of out in the ice....We're expecting snow tonight and into tomorrow morning. My poor M3 is getting lonely in the garage....

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by mump

I hope I am wrong, I am going to take a job that requires a commute through mountains and in my heart I don't want to give up my 335is, but i also know that a AWD vehicle is the way to go. Maybe the community knows what is a good AWD vehicle to my IS, I am thinking either a Golf R or Audi TTS... help!?

If the road is well plowed and you're not headed into deep snow the choices are many. If you get deep snow give up on a sport sedan. You need ground clearance

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by WillInDenver

Generally, I don't go around town using engine braking rather than my brakes though.

Good plan. New brake pads vs. New transmission