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      11-02-2017, 10:20 PM   #1409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 666MorDeath View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
That's a perfect list of items that simply won't happen on an M2, and it sounds like you aren't really a serious M2 buyer. You are wasting your time you should be enjoying an M4!
Oh I do, The M4 is just SO big! Honestly I wish it were around the size of the M2

I was going to buy an M2 until I found out I was 20th on the wait list

But now I'm obsessed and enamored with all the M4 goodies

So basically BMW lured me in with the M2 and got the up sell.

Yep! That is the ///Marketing plan! I've been saying this since 2016 and saw it in action with the 1M in 2011.

The M2 is marketed as a loss leader.

Advertise M2 sizzle.
No product in stock. So...advisors must
Sell customers up to M3 or M4
Sell customers down to M235/M240

The Dealers takes in more cash for selling the m235/240/M3/M4 than they would selling an M2.

And yes. The M4 is Huuuuge. Way too big a coupe for me.
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      11-02-2017, 11:02 PM   #1410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stage IV View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
That's a perfect list of items that simply won't happen on an M2, and it sounds like you aren't really a serious M2 buyer. You are wasting your time you should be enjoying an M4!
Yeah, hundreds of configurable steering/throttle/suspension combination settings has M3/4 written all over it. Seriously, who needs all that shit?
These cars aren't a matter of need, it's preference. Personally I use the settings to adjust to different road conditions and different driving styles and it works great.

And as best I can recall, 3 throttle, 3 steering, and 3 suspension settings yields 27 combinations. Not quite hundreds.
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      11-02-2017, 11:05 PM   #1411
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Scottt did mention about a G30 M550e coming, any hints on that one?

And the upgraded hybrid power train only for 7 & X5?
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      11-02-2017, 11:27 PM   #1412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenmaster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
This seem strange. An S55 M2 will probably be really close to the M3 price wise. If they can fit the S55 and keep the price around the N55 M2 level that will be one hell of a deal!
Yeah, I'd think a B58TU "standard" M2 would be more likely. Also would be nice if there's a switch to the carbon-fiber chassis (CLAR?) for significant weight reduction.
I'm in agreement here. I much more see a B58T030 going in place of the n55 and not an S55 .. in order to really keep the M4 upscale but who knows. They've made so many s55s at this point the cost is probably lower for the older motor
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      11-03-2017, 12:15 AM   #1413
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
So the S55-powered M2 CS/Competition is actually replacing the N55 model altogether? I guess I haven’t been following close enough - is that confirmed?

If that’s the case, that would seem to make the possibility of an S58 powered M2 right out of the gate for the next generation even more likely. That would definitely get me thinking seriously about a Gxx M2 for my next car, despite the fact that I would really prefer not to have to give up the convenience of four doors
Post from the M2 CS thread....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Well well well...

To be honest, I never even bothered to check the EOP of the original M2. Just never thought I would discover anything newsworthy...

June 2018.

Let the outrage begin.
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      11-03-2017, 12:18 AM   #1414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
An M2 CSL will be DCT only, guaranteed. And around $130k MSRP, so most people who declared themselves in, will in fact be out.
You are probably right about the DCT, so therefore I AM out. The price will not be the limiting factor, but the availability/scarcity will!
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      11-03-2017, 12:33 AM   #1415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenmaster View Post
Yeah, I'd think a B58TU "standard" M2 would be more likely. Also would be nice if there's a switch to the carbon-fiber chassis (CLAR?) for significant weight reduction.
Of course this is a theory, but also based on some known facts. If you haven’t been following there is a Competition and CSL model coming.

If you notice in what was once considered M2 CS spy videos, the cars have no additional camo covered aero pieces like the M4 CS spy videos. They all sound and look the same...a base looking M2 with minor camo covering updates and a distinct S55 exhaust note.

The M2 Competition(not CS), will replace the N55 M2 which ends production June 2018. It will be given a detuned S55, larger brakes(from spy videos), new seats, exterior refresh. This isn’t just a package like on other M models. The new name and price increase will help BMW explain the move to current N55 M2 owners.

Spy videos of M2 CSL will eventually surface following Competition release like the M4 GTS...with big wing, splitter, diffuser, roll cage...etc.

BMW would not R&D the S55 for the M2 chassis and deal with all emissions regulation tests for one low volume CSL model. They would never recoup their money on 750 or 1000 units worldwide. Bean counters would not approve that.

Last edited by DieGrüneHölle; 11-03-2017 at 12:49 AM..
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      11-03-2017, 01:15 AM   #1416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenmaster View Post
Yeah, I'd think a B58TU "standard" M2 would be more likely. Also would be nice if there's a switch to the carbon-fiber chassis (CLAR?) for significant weight reduction.
Of course this is a theory, but also based on some known facts. If you haven’t been following there is a Competition and CSL model coming.

If you notice in what was once considered M2 CS spy videos, the cars have no additional camo covered aero pieces like the M4 CS spy videos. They all sound and look the same...a base looking M2 with minor camo covering updates and a distinct S55 exhaust note.

The M2 Competition(not CS), will replace the N55 M2 which ends production June 2018. It will be given a detuned S55, larger brakes(from spy videos), new seats, exterior refresh. This isn’t just a package like on other M models. The new name and price increase will help BMW explain the move to current N55 M2 owners.

Spy videos of M2 CSL will eventually surface following Competition release like the M4 GTS...with big wing, splitter, diffuser, roll cage...etc.

BMW would not R&D the S55 for the M2 chassis and deal with all emissions regulation tests for one low volume CSL model. They would never recoup their money on 750 or 1000 units worldwide. Bean counters would not approve that.
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      11-03-2017, 03:42 AM   #1417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
Of course this is a theory, but also based on some known facts. If you haven’t been following there is a Competition and CSL model coming.

If you notice in what was once considered M2 CS spy videos, the cars have no additional camo covered aero pieces like the M4 CS spy videos. They all sound and look the same...a base looking M2 with minor camo covering updates and a distinct S55 exhaust note.

The M2 Competition(not CS), will replace the N55 M2 which ends production June 2018. It will be given a detuned S55, larger brakes(from spy videos), new seats, exterior refresh. This isn’t just a package like on other M models. The new name and price increase will help BMW explain the move to current N55 M2 owners.

Spy videos of M2 CSL will eventually surface following Competition release like the M4 GTS...with big wing, splitter, diffuser, roll cage...etc.

BMW would not R&D the S55 for the M2 chassis and deal with all emissions regulation tests for one low volume CSL model. They would never recoup their money on 750 or 1000 units worldwide. Bean counters would not approve that.
Really interesting facts putted together. Thanks !
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      11-03-2017, 04:39 AM   #1418
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Great to see the M2 top variant all but confirmed. Surely it's back to looking at the Moto GP car minus gold rims and emergency lights now
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      11-03-2017, 07:19 AM   #1419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
Post from the M2 CS thread....
Thanks for the reference. I added the post number to your QUOTE tag so it’s easy for people to find the original.

Anyway, I suppose the next question would be, is there any chance that the N55 powered car is ending production to make way for a B58TU powered update? I acknowledge that it is pretty unlikely this could occur without ynguldyn getting wind of it. On the other hand, any breadcrumbs that might lead to the identity of and info about the new limited M3 model coming next year have escaped detection so far. So it does happen from time to time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
Of course this is a theory, but also based on some known facts. If you haven’t been following there is a Competition and CSL model coming.

...

The M2 Competition(not CS), will replace the N55 M2 which ends production June 2018. It will be given a detuned S55, larger brakes(from spy videos), new seats, exterior refresh. This isn’t just a package like on other M models. The new name and price increase will help BMW explain the move to current N55 M2 owners.
This is somewhat believable. However, there’s not a whole lot of room to move it up market without causing the starting price of the M2 and M4 to be too close - in the same 60k-ish price range (overlap with the M3, however, would not be an issue since it will be gone by the time these cars start hitting the dealerships in numbers, and plus it’s a four door). So, it leaves questions about what to do with the M4. Perhaps they would make the 444hp engine standard and bump up the base price. Just thinking out loud.

Quote:
BMW would not R&D the S55 for the M2 chassis and deal with all emissions regulation tests for one low volume CSL model. They would never recoup their money on 750 or 1000 units worldwide. Bean counters would not approve that.
But, didn’t they do just that when they put the water injected S55 into the M4 GTS? I have my doubts that that engine “got a pass” in the area of regulatory certification simply because it was based on the standard S55. If that were the case, I’d think the the S55 potentially could too since it’s based on the N55. Sure, the differences are of another variety, but unless we are actually cracking open the law books from countries around the world, it seems like pure guesswork to say that the two situations are treated differently from a legal perspective.

Furthermore, and I guess this point should have been weighted higher that the one above, it was never suggested that the S55 would only be used in the CSL. Right? As far as I know, the prevailing theory was always that it would be used in both the ”CS” and the CSL. So either way, it would see much more production than just a thousand or so units. The question on the table is whether or not the “CS” will become the new base model, not whether or not it will use the S55.
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      11-03-2017, 08:17 AM   #1420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Yep! That is the ///Marketing plan! I've been saying this since 2016 and saw it in action with the 1M in 2011.

The M2 is marketed as a loss leader.

Advertise M2 sizzle.
No product in stock. So...advisors must
Sell customers up to M3 or M4
Sell customers down to M235/M240

The Dealers takes in more cash for selling the m235/240/M3/M4 than they would selling an M2.

And yes. The M4 is Huuuuge. Way too big a coupe for me.
You nailed it sir.
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      11-03-2017, 09:27 AM   #1421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenmaster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
This seem strange. An S55 M2 will probably be really close to the M3 price wise. If they can fit the S55 and keep the price around the N55 M2 level that will be one hell of a deal!
Yeah, I'd think a B58TU "standard" M2 would be more likely. Also would be nice if there's a switch to the carbon-fiber chassis (CLAR?) for significant weight reduction.
I'm in agreement here. I much more see a B58T030 going in place of the n55 and not an S55 .. in order to really keep the M4 upscale but who knows. They've made so many s55s at this point the cost is probably lower for the older motor
I wonder, though, if BMW sees the interior being a large enough differentiating factor between the M2 and M3/M4 to allow for similar engine output. Maybe their thinking is that customers will still shift to the M3/M4 due to different interior materials and choices, which I'm guessing a lot of buyers of these cars will do.

I'll admit I'm probably one of those buyers. My guess is I'd really love driving the M2, but I prefer the interior (and color choices) of the M3 a bit more.
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      11-03-2017, 11:01 AM   #1422
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I have a 528 lease expiring on 5/30/2018, with the potential for a 3 month pull-forward in March. Wife's car which I am going to replace with an X5 40e. The mention of an upgraded powertrain to the X5 45e (and 745e should have the same specs) is VERY interesting. I've been expecting the G05 to have the higher capacity battery expected in the i3, but no details, yet. An increase in electric range of 50% would make all the difference for my wife's commute and is very attractive. It comes down to whether I take advantage of what I expect will be deals on a close-out 2018 next June, or extending the 528 lease for a G05 in Nov 2019. As such, I'll following any info on this new powertrain avidly. Does anyone have anything to offer about this upgrade? I'm hoping that info on the 745e will be available before the X5 45e, since it's probably an LCI, as contrasted to a completely new model. They should be the same.
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      11-03-2017, 12:49 PM   #1423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertfox73 View Post

I'll admit I'm probably one of those buyers. My guess is I'd really love driving the M2, but I prefer the interior (and color choices) of the M3 a bit more.
I sold my 1M after 6 months for an M3. My biggest complaint was sub-par interior materials. I used the M3 everyday and wanted to be coddled a little more. I don’t regret the decision at all, the M3 was just better all around.
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      11-03-2017, 02:05 PM   #1424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Thanks for the reference. I added the post number to your QUOTE tag so it’s easy for people to find the original.

Anyway, I suppose the next question would be, is there any chance that the N55 powered car is ending production to make way for a B58TU powered update? I acknowledge that it is pretty unlikely this could occur without ynguldyn getting wind of it. On the other hand, any breadcrumbs that might lead to the identity of and info about the new limited M3 model coming next year have escaped detection so far. So it does happen from time to time.
There is still that possibility, but you would think by now you would have seen spy videos of it or like you said ynguldyn would have gotten wind of it. Also there is fact the so-called M2 CS spy videos have zero additional aero bits, but yet they distinctively all have S55 exhaust notes. Also the vin numbers show an S55.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
This is somewhat believable. However, there’s not a whole lot of room to move it up market without causing the starting price of the M2 and M4 to be too close - in the same 60k-ish price range (overlap with the M3, however, would not be an issue since it will be gone by the time these cars start hitting the dealerships in numbers, and plus it’s a four door). So, it leaves questions about what to do with the M4. Perhaps they would make the 444hp engine standard and bump up the base price. Just thinking out loud.
It seems that the M2 S55 could not see quite the price bump some would expect. According to the vin the Competition isn't getting big updates, besides S55. Only other notable upgrades in the vin are M seats(712) and M brakes (2NH), both are options. Car still has dakota leather, new perforated leather is an option. Still no M mirrors, no carbon roof, no M merino leather, etc. You can see by the vin there is still some cost cutting, in my opinion to keep msrp comfortably under the M4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
But, didn’t they do just that when they put the water injected S55 into the M4 GTS? I have my doubts that that engine “got a pass” in the area of regulatory certification simply because it was based on the standard S55.
It isn't just about regulations. There is a lot of R&D money that goes into packaging. For example...think about cooling, related to different packaging constraints in the M2 engine bay. Having to develop new intake and/or intercooler piping. Developing and manufacturing new pieces, then testing all that in different climates...it all adds up. Who knows what does or doesn't carry over. M4 GTS essentially was ready to go, all they had to do was slap on water injection and a tune. Then only worry about regulations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Furthermore, and I guess this point should have been weighted higher that the one above, it was never suggested that the S55 would only be used in the CSL. Right? As far as I know, the prevailing theory was always that it would be used in both the ”CS” and the CSL. So either way, it would see much more production than just a thousand or so units. The question on the table is whether or not the “CS” will become the new base model, not whether or not it will use the S55.
The prevailing wisdom from ynguldyn is CS is now the Competition, an all new designation. So we will get a Competition and CSL. The only cars running around have S55 in the vin. Unless ynguldyn catches wind of a vin with B58tu very soon, I don't see it happening. Only 8 months away now from EOP of N55 M2. Again this is just a theory and me trying to put the puzzle pieces together. I always kept saying..."why is there base looking M2's running around the ring with S55, they don't look like CS models at all". Also some N55 owners would be pissed with either a B58tu or S55 upgrade to base model, the new Competition designation gives BMW an out. Essentially justifying the move by saying this is an all new variant, but in reality it is the same car with detuned S55 and more options.

Last edited by DieGrüneHölle; 11-03-2017 at 02:22 PM..
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      11-03-2017, 03:45 PM   #1425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
It isn't just about regulations. There is a lot of R&D money that goes into packaging. For example...think about cooling, related to different packaging constraints in the M2 engine bay. Having to develop new intake and/or intercooler piping. Developing and manufacturing new pieces, then testing all that in different climates...it all adds up. Who knows what does or doesn't carry over. M4 GTS essentially was ready to go, all they had to do was slap on water injection and a tune. Then only worry about regulations.
Yeah, that I am with you on.

But when you addressed the idea that BMW would not go through the trouble of putting the S55 into the M2 just for the limited CSL model, it read to me as though you were using this fact as a means to further bolster the theory that the Competition model will become the new base model. What I was saying was that the S55 was going to see much more widespread use than just in the CSL no matter what they did with the base model. So, my point was, there is nothing about the Competition getting the S55 that adds any weight to the "base model theory". They could slot a B58 in either way - and the S55 will still get volume use in the Competition.

That said, ironically, the logic could sort of be used in reverse as an argument against a base model. That is, why bother certifying the B58 when most everyone will want the Competition model anyway? I think the the M3/M4 Competition package - which I do understand is a slightly different animal from this new M2 Competition - has a take rate of over 80% or something like that. So I could easily see how BMW might forecast that the S55 M2 Competition model would similarly dominate sales, making the B58 not worth the trouble.

Anyway, everything else you say makes a good deal of sense to me. I am still going to be a bit surprised if the S55 M2 doesn't get a good 10% bump up in price. I think the market will certainly bear it, and that would still leave it just under $60k MSRP to start.
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      11-03-2017, 07:17 PM   #1426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
There is still that possibility, but you would think by now you would have seen spy videos of it or like you said ynguldyn would have gotten wind of it. Also there is fact the so-called M2 CS spy videos have zero additional aero bits, but yet they distinctively all have S55 exhaust notes. Also the vin numbers show an S55.
M2 variant test sessions: apart from a masked front end and camo tape around tail lights and on the diffuser, no exterior body changes (see here).

All "M2 Competition" VIN build sheets known so far mention 3.0 S55 engine with 302 kW output (410.6 hp [metric] - 405 hp (USA)).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
It seems that the M2 S55 could not see quite the price bump some would expect. According to the vin the Competition isn't getting big updates, besides S55. Only other notable upgrades in the vin are M seats(712) and M brakes (2NH), both are options. Car still has dakota leather, new perforated leather is an option. Still no M mirrors, no carbon roof, no M merino leather, etc. You can see by the vin there is still some cost cutting, in my opinion to keep msrp comfortably under the M4.
Couple of points to note when taking a closer look at leaked USA-spec "M2 Competition" VIN build sheets:
  • colors:
    • Alpinweiss 3 - paint code 300
    • Black Sapphire Metallic - paint code 475
    • Long Beach Blue Metallic - paint code C16
    • Sunset Orange Metallic - paint code C1X
    • Hockenheim Silber Metallic - paint code C33
  • upholstery: Black Dakota Leather:
    • LCNL = plain leather + blue contrast stitching (Leder Dakota/schwarz Kontr.blau)
    • LCNZ = plain leather + orange contrast stitching (Leder Dakota/schw./kontr.orange)
    • MDB2 = perforated leather + blue contrast stitching (Led.dak.des.perf.schwarz/blau)
    • MDOE = perforated leather + orange contrast stitching (Led.dak.des.perf.schwarz/orange)
  • transmission:
    • manual transmission = stock
    • M-DCT = optional (option code 2MK)
  • wheels:
    • 437M black 19" wheels (base M2) = stock (code 2VZ)
    • 788M 19" forged lightweight wheels = optional (code 2QT)
  • interior trim:
    • interior trim high gloss black with chrome trim finishers = stock (code 4LU)
    • interior trim finishers carbon fibre = optional (option code 4MC)
    • individual high gloss satin chrome with extended content in addition to either standard 4LU or optional 4MC = optional (option code 7M9)
  • M Sport Brakes = optional (option code 2NH)
  • seats:
    • Sport Seats Front Driver/Passenger = stock (code 481)
    • M Sports Seat = optional (option code 712)
  • M Seat Belts (black with ///M stripes) = stock (code 4GQ)
  • Park Distance Control front and rear = optional (option code 508)
  • M Driver's Package = optional (option code 7ME)
  • almost all base M2 options available
  • no retractable armrest front (base M2 code 4AE)
  • backseats do not feature folding headrests (base M2 code 5DC)
About your "still no M mirrors" statement: that's not what VIN build sheet illustrations show. Look below.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_ View Post
The prevailing wisdom from ynguldyn is CS is now the Competition, an all new designation. So we will get a Competition and CSL. The only cars running around have S55 in the vin. Unless ynguldyn catches wind of a vin with B58tu very soon, I don't see it happening.
IMHO that makes sense.
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      11-04-2017, 09:59 AM   #1427
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Originally Posted by desertfox73 View Post

I'll admit I'm probably one of those buyers. My guess is I'd really love driving the M2, but I prefer the interior (and color choices) of the M3 a bit more.
I sold my 1M after 6 months for an M3. My biggest complaint was sub-par interior materials. I used the M3 everyday and wanted to be coddled a little more. I don’t regret the decision at all, the M3 was just better all around.
Go for what you know !
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      11-04-2017, 01:54 PM   #1428
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I would definitely be interested in a ZCP M2, especially if it were to get some of the trinkets I have in my ZCP F80 - I’m not expecting all of them, but the CF roof and distinguishable seats are really nice.

They’d also be smart to include the 666M wheels as an option from the factory - those look unbelievable on the M2, especially with a slight drop.

Saw some M2s at the Dallas cars and coffee this morning - it’s such a good looking car on the outside, but having had a 235 previously, I can’t take the low rent interior. If BMW addresses some of that with the ZCP, I might be willing to trade, as the F80 is a little big for my tastes.
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      11-04-2017, 02:10 PM   #1429
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      11-04-2017, 09:46 PM   #1430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I would definitely be interested in a ZCP M2, especially if it were to get some of the trinkets I have in my ZCP F80 - I’m not expecting all of them, but the CF roof and distinguishable seats are really nice.

They’d also be smart to include the 666M wheels as an option from the factory - those look unbelievable on the M2, especially with a slight drop.

Saw some M2s at the Dallas cars and coffee this morning - it’s such a good looking car on the outside, but having had a 235 previously, I can’t take the low rent interior. If BMW addresses some of that with the ZCP, I might be willing to trade, as the F80 is a little big for my tastes.

: :



Dude BMW already got you to the F80 right where they want most buyers!

BMW has sold 3500 M2 in the US and how many F8x M3/M4 ? Probably 10x as many.
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