[BunkerJ]

Originally Posted by N26Ghost

That is an interesting topic. Can anyone provide proof of those claims? Naturally, manufacturer dynos are going to be a bit biased. Does anyone have any credible before/after dyno data to share for the bootmod3 flash? For me, bootmod3 is not an option as I can take no risks while my car is within the warranty period. The JB+ leaves no trace within the DME or anywhere else that it has been connected to the car, so is truly one of the only tuners you can quickly attach/detach for service.

Thanks for the thread, Ghost. Always nice to see more results added to the list. I had the Dinan Sport+ before going flash, so I'd like to think we had similar results then.

Only thing I'll comment on is that the JB+ does leave a trace, as does any piggyback or flash tune.

[M2_MEDUSA]

Originally Posted by BunkerJ

Thanks for the thread, Ghost. Always nice to see more results added to the list. I had the Dinan Sport+ before going flash, so I'd like to think we had similar results then.

Only thing I'll comment on is that the JB+ does leave a trace, as does any piggyback or flash tune.

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by JR5674

Rjdnyy224,

You cannot have a point without facts, nor can I.

You, yourself said it.... “although there are few if any dynos to back this up”

There is no independent dyno, without an agenda to show a “complete level 1,2,3,4 flash tune” makes similar power to a piggyback. It could make LESS, MORE, OR THE SAME. Nobody has reasonable independent before and after facts. In regards to “non-power” elements, there is no proof working your cooling system and fans harder that it’s ‘more reliable’ for the vehicle. Whenever you work any element more intensely than its intended to be used, bad things ‘can’ happen. Literally any modification from stock ‘can’ cause bad things to happen. Spreads facts, not opinions.

“although there are few if any dynos to back this up”

I respectfully disagree. Not much more for me to say, I feel like I already said everything I'd want to. I guess you're more into facts, and they are great, but I also really like to hear opinions. Agree to disagree . Great thread N26Ghost, you provided us with some really relevant data, and for that we thank you

[ilivas]

I’d like to point out that JB+ would help us guys that have access to 93 octane since we can run a bit more boost. It’s an even better value

[ilivas]

I might throw my BMS stage 1 on the dyno.

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by ilivas

I’d like to point out that JB+ would help us guys that have access to 93 octane since we can run a bit more boost. It’s an even better value

JB+/Dinan Sport really are great value products, no matter what octane is available to you. Even better if you have 93.

[JR5674]

Rjdnyy224,
It’s ok to disagree, no hard feelings whatsoever. I just do not want you or others sharing opinions as facts. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Facts are proven through testing.

Example of fact: JB+ adds approx 25-30 hp and torque to a stock bmw 2.0 -proven

Example of opinion: JB4 & bootmod are safest and most powerful engine tuning options. -unproven, just opinion

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by JR5674

Rjdnyy224,
It’s ok to disagree, no hard feelings whatsoever. I just do not want you or others sharing opinions as facts. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Facts are proven through testing.

Example of fact: JB+ adds approx 25-30 hp and torque to a stock bmw 2.0 -proven

Example of opinion: JB4 & bootmod are safest and most powerful engine tuning options. -unproven, just opinion

Fair enough. Yah, to be clear, I have no way to prove that flash tunes are safer than piggybacks, thats just what I believe to be true. I have no way to prove that BM3 feels smoother than Dinan sport, that was just my personal experience. And just to clarify, I never advocate for JB4, like you insinuated in the latter part of your post. After how many engines it's bricked, I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole, just my opinion . Good discussion, thanks for being respectful and understanding my side rather than getting immature like a lot of people do.

[BunkerJ]

To be fair, it is proven that ECU tunes are safer.

[sspade]

Flash tuning is one hundred percent safer for your engine compared to a piggyback. This is assuming the flash tune was prepared by someone who knows what they are doing.

[ilivas]

The actual tune itself is infinitely more important for safety than flash vs. piggyback. This is why I’m always super picky about my tuner. Some tuners run them to the ragged edge to get the most power however they don’t keep longevity in mind. You can make a ton of power on a piggyback and be very safe. Reflashes are generally smoother though if the tune is right. There are also a lot more options with a reflash.

[x328x]

How can you deny flash tunes (if done correctly by a professional) not to be safer than piggy backs. Fact is flash has full access to all parameters of ecu. Piggy back does not and in simple terms tricks the ecu which is why the power is not smooth at times. I have had bms stage 1 and now ive got bms jb4. I run both map 1 and 2. I love the product but my issue has always been not factory like. But i am still happy with it. Just imagine if BMS got into the flash game...what do you think will be safer...the jb4 or the flash product.

Now what gives more power. No comment. Until i see a dyno from bm3 flash i will be sceptical. Thanks op for your effort.

[BunkerJ]

Originally Posted by ilivas

The actual tune itself is infinitely more important for safety than flash vs. piggyback. This is why I’m always super picky about my tuner. Some tuners run them to the ragged edge to get the most power however they don’t keep longevity in mind. You can make a ton of power on a piggyback and be very safe. Reflashes are generally smoother though if the tune is right. There are also a lot more options with a reflash.

Oh yes. Especially right now where tuners are becoming more and more accessible. "Instagram Tuners" have been showing up, so it's important to do your research. Funny enough that a certain tuning company semi-well known in this community just ended up closing down due to unsafe tunes.

[JR5674]

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that is full tune is safer than a piggyback or a “low tech” signal modifier. Zero proof. Whenever you alter the function of any component to run differently than the factory originally intended you move out of the “safe” zone.

A full tune will modify multiple components of your vehicle. Fuel, ignition, cooling, boost, others, etc… all running different specs than the individual components were intended.

A “low tech” signal modifier will modify a few components of your vehicle. They too are running different specs than the individual components were intended.

Non BMW example:

“Snorting heroin is not as dangerous for your body as injecting heroin.” Obviously, altering your body and its organs and their functions, is dangerous either way.

I have no dog in this fight. Modify your vehicles to your liking. We all know the potential consequences of our actions. Please do not preach about one is safe and one isn’t. If you play with fire, there is a chance you can get burned.

[BunkerJ]

Originally Posted by JR5674

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that is full tune is safer than a piggyback or a “low tech” signal modifier. Zero proof. Whenever you alter the function of any component to run differently than the factory originally intended you move out of the “safe” zone.

A full tune will modify multiple components of your vehicle. Fuel, ignition, cooling, boost, others, etc… all running different specs than the individual components were intended.

A “low tech” signal modifier will modify a few components of your vehicle. They too are running different specs than the individual components were intended.

Non BMW example:

“Snorting heroin is not as dangerous for your body as injecting heroin.” Obviously, altering your body and its organs and their functions, is dangerous either way.

I have no dog in this fight. Modify your vehicles to your liking. We all know the potential consequences of our actions. Please do not preach about one is safe and one isn’t. If you play with fire, there is a chance you can get burned.

The proof is laid out before your eyes. With a piggyback that is modifying the signals, the DME isn't able to quickly see something dangerous and safely recover in order to avoid damage. That's probably the reason you see so many overboosts on piggybacks killing engines. With an ECU tune, the DME is able to see those values because it's the one creating it, not receiving modified ones from a secondary device.

[JR5674]

With an ECU tune, The DME is telling certain components to modify their factory settings to compensate for different signals according to the now modified DME. Again, those components are running differently than intended from the factory.

[JR5674]

Its all a dangerous game we like to play

[BunkerJ]

Not saying that either of them aren't dangerous but if you're going to tune your car, it makes the most sense to go with something that delivers smoother power and is safer because the DME is in control without external factors modifying the signals. You can modify the thresholds and any good tuner will know where to set those in order to protect the engine from a sudden catastrophic failure such as an overboost.

[JR5674]

BunkerJ, Thank you for saying, you hit the nail on the head:

"Not saying that either of them aren't dangerous"

That was the point, to share with people who might not be familiar with modifying their vehicles and the risks associated with those modifications. The safest route is to stay stock. ANY Modification= playing with fire. Proceed at your own risk.

[BunkerJ]

Originally Posted by JR5674

BunkerJ, Thank you for saying, you hit the nail on the head:

"Not saying that either of them aren't dangerous"

That was the point, to share with people who might not be familiar with modifying their vehicles and the risks associated with those modifications. The safest route is to stay stock. ANY Modification= playing with fire. Proceed at your own risk.

It's rare that someone here (Speaking to those contributing to this thread) would be unaware that modifying their car increases the stress put on it. Easily the majority of users on the forum are here for modification reasons and also understand that. So the point of the matter is not to push to run stock, as it's always repeated in practically every thread. It'd then be more logical to discuss how we can modify our cars and reduce the chance of a catastrophic failure. If we're focusing on diction, you can specify "least dangerous" over "safest".

[kern417]

JR you are really grasping at air here. You don't need to perform a scientific study to understand how basic principles work.

[JR5674]

Saying, stock is the safest and modifying is dangerous..... is like the safest form of sex is abstinence and any type of sex is inherently more dangerous. Its a lousy fact but true.

My wife is a Dr. who worked for a hospital here in Connecticut in the infectious disease unit. They literally see the worst of the worst in terms of health. If a specialist couldn't figure out what the problem was, you'd go see her unit. You do not ever want to be in an infectious disease unit in a hospital! She decided to stop working at the hospital and voluntarily travel to third world countries to help those who do not have access to first world health care. She felt that if she could even help one child and make a difference in their life, it was all worth it. Obviously, she has helped countless children on her own time and dime, strictly out of her own compassion. I tell this tale, because if we can inform even one person who doesn't know the dangers of modifying their vehicles, it could be one less bimmer in the scrap pile. Obviously, vehicles are replaceable and people are not, but the comparison holds true.