[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

I'm like you and unfortunately nobody cares as the MT market is so small. Read all the posts here....so many guys love their AT. I'm 54 and grew up with it, raced with it and still love driving MT. My children have zero desire to learn on my car and i bet most on here have had little to no exposure to MT. Pretty sure AUDI is going to have MT in their B9s. The new TT will have MT after AT only for a few years. B9 S5 for me please....MT.

Yes, when I get to be your age, I might think like you.

... nah... I don't think so.

It's interesting when you say "nobody cares" about MT, but then whenever someone talks about MB or Lexus comparison, it's frequently brought up that BMW offers manual but competitors do not. Obviously someone (many) do care.

[Danny K]

My wife (yes my wife) wanted to buy another BMW coupe and insisted that it be a manual 435 (she wanted dual exhaust cause it looks good). I agreed and purchased it. Now i believe that the exhaust on the car is tuned for the automatic which at 70 mph is at about 2000 RPM. However the Manual at 70 mph is at 2500 RPM. I believe that the exhaust was tuned to be louder over 2000 RPM which makes my car have a horrible drone at 70 mph. Has anyone else experienced this?

[dtn]

I used to be such the manual promoter too but then I moved to southern CA and never looked back. The last DCT and this 8AT made the switch easy.

Originally Posted by Danny K

My wife (yes my wife) wanted to buy another BMW coupe and insisted that it be a manual 435 (she wanted dual exhaust cause it looks good). I agreed and purchased it. Now i believe that the exhaust on the car is tuned for the automatic which at 70 mph is at about 2000 RPM. However the Manual at 70 mph is at 2500 RPM. I believe that the exhaust was tuned to be louder over 2000 RPM which makes my car have a horrible drone at 70 mph. Has anyone else experienced this?

435 in WI, you must be the only one around. I used to live in MKE.

[Kevin M]

***Update 2 1/2 months in my 8AT 335***

The 8AT is a great transmission. Easily the best auto transmission I've ever driven (but we all know that). When in auto mode, it shifts as smoothly as any car I've been in. In manual mode (which I use very often) I like the nice fast kicks it gives you in shifts. Car shifts wicked fast and is no doubt faster than a manual. I also like the ability to go between paddles and the stick to shift gears...I use the stick when accelerating out of a sharp turn. Sport mode (when in automatic) does a great job of holding gears, its a bit odd at first but it makes sense. My biggest complaint is that when manually downshifting, it gives a slight momentary burst in acceleration when selecting a lower gear. Maybe because the computer tries to rev match and the transmission doesn't decouple from the torque converter on downshifts?

With that said, I like manual better, no question. I'm not unhappy with my decision, but my next 335 (or M3 or S4 or.....) will have a manual transmission. Its more fun. Period.

[munch520]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

I was in a similar situation and i went with an auto... never regretted it.

Ditto, this is my first auto (in a car) and I don't miss manuals except on downshifts. The F30 seems to lurch forward a bit if you downshift without being on the brakes, which annoys me. But the auto with Sport+ offers a variety of accommodations, you can just chill in auto and comfort, put it in sport modes or a bit of spirited driving, or if you really want to tackle a winding road, sport+ the paddles are there waiting

[falar]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

I feel like I am defying the gods if I go auto, I've been such a stick shift promoter my whole life. But I enjoyed the auto....

That's how I felt going into my 335i as well but the auto was just too good to pass up.

[omaralt]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

***Update 2 1/2 months in my 8AT 335***

The 8AT is a great transmission. Easily the best auto transmission I've ever driven (but we all know that). When in auto mode, it shifts as smoothly as any car I've been in. In manual mode (which I use very often) I like the nice fast kicks it gives you in shifts. Car shifts wicked fast and is no doubt faster than a manual. I also like the ability to go between paddles and the stick to shift gears...I use the stick when accelerating out of a sharp turn. Sport mode (when in automatic) does a great job of holding gears, its a bit odd at first but it makes sense. My biggest complaint is that when manually downshifting, it gives a slight momentary burst in acceleration when selecting a lower gear. Maybe because the computer tries to rev match and the transmission doesn't decouple from the torque converter on downshifts?

With that said, I like manual better, no question. I'm not unhappy with my decision, but my next 335 (or M3 or S4 or.....) will have a manual transmission. Its more fun. Period.

Bingo. That's how a true manual driver will feel. I just switched from a 550i 8AT to a 6 spd 435i. Much more fun to drive. 0-60 times and mpg are irrelevant to me.

[unintelligible]

It's funny how things change. Go back 15 years and look at the early E46s, enthusiasts used to cry for the manual, for the most part not because the manual was so great, but because the automatics were so godawfully bad. Slow, non-rev-matched shifts, fewer gears, poor fuel economy, poor performance, and a premium ($1000+) price.

Now, almost all of those advantages have been flipped in favor of the auto. ZF8 shifts are extremely fast and beautifully rev matched, with two more ratios than the stick, yielding better fuel economy and performance. And now there's no money to be saved opting for the manual, since the auto is included in the base MSRP (unless you opt for sport auto, in which case it is still just half of what those old, terrible slushboxes used to cost).

I think the argument auto vs. manual has a clear winner on paper, but some folks could care less about what's on paper and find that the only way they can have fun in a car is if it has a clutch pedal. And that's fine - but I think most clear headed folks would agree, having the choice of two superb transmissions is a win-win, and selecting one over the other does not make you more or less of an enthusiast than the other guy.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by unintelligible

It's funny how things change. Go back 15 years and look at the early E46s, enthusiasts used to cry for the manual, for the most part not because the manual was so great, but because the automatics were so godawfully bad. Slow, non-rev-matched shifts, fewer gears, poor fuel economy, poor performance, and a premium ($1000+) price.

Now, almost all of those advantages have been flipped in favor of the auto. ZF8 shifts are extremely fast and beautifully rev matched, with two more ratios than the stick, yielding better fuel economy and performance. And now there's no money to be saved opting for the manual, since the auto is included in the base MSRP (unless you opt for sport auto, in which case it is still just half of what those old, terrible slushboxes used to cost).

I think the argument auto vs. manual has a clear winner on paper, but some folks could care less about what's on paper and find that the only way they can have fun in a car is if it has a clutch pedal. And that's fine - but I think most clear headed folks would agree, having the choice of two superb transmissions is a win-win, and selecting one over the other does not make you more or less of an enthusiast than the other guy.

Very well said!

[snowghost]

Originally Posted by unintelligible

It's funny how things change. Go back 15 years and look at the early E46s, enthusiasts used to cry for the manual, for the most part not because the manual was so great, but because the automatics were so godawfully bad. Slow, non-rev-matched shifts, fewer gears, poor fuel economy, poor performance, and a premium ($1000+) price.

Now, almost all of those advantages have been flipped in favor of the auto. ZF8 shifts are extremely fast and beautifully rev matched, with two more ratios than the stick, yielding better fuel economy and performance. And now there's no money to be saved opting for the manual, since the auto is included in the base MSRP (unless you opt for sport auto, in which case it is still just half of what those old, terrible slushboxes used to cost).

I think the argument auto vs. manual has a clear winner on paper, but some folks could care less about what's on paper and find that the only way they can have fun in a car is if it has a clutch pedal. And that's fine - but I think most clear headed folks would agree, having the choice of two superb transmissions is a win-win, and selecting one over the other does not make you more or less of an enthusiast than the other guy.

Originally Posted by Kevin M

Very well said!

True enough. I'm in the camp of enjoying the 6MT, but recognize the considerable improvements in slushies over the years.

[nicknaz]

Not sure if you are still shopping OP, but I went from being manual only to DCT and sport 8AT and have not missed it on the street or at the track during HPDE

It think it just all depends on your personal preference on how much moving the gear level and pressing the clutch means to you.

[russellsdad]

8AT was definitely the way to go for me with my 335i as my DD in Bay Area traffic. But I definitely missed driving stick sometimes. So I just picked up a weekend car to satisfy my manual urges. I got a 2001 Porsche Boxster S with 6MT. Problem solved :-)

[P-Bass]

Originally Posted by russellsdad

8AT was definitely the way to go for me with my 335i as my DD in Bay Area traffic. But I definitely missed driving stick sometimes. So I just picked up a weekend car to satisfy my manual urges. I got a 2001 Porsche Boxster S with 6MT. Problem solved :-)

Manual is more engaging. Nothing like the feeling of massaging the power of an engine with a clutch and throttle. The new autos are great, but simply no replacement for a 3 pedal car. If you have to ask, you've already switched.

[SteVTEC]

Manuals are definitely more engaging and fun, but yeah the modern automatics from the ZF 6-speed on up and especially the ZF 8-speed Sport Auto really are fantastic. We're long gone from the days of 4 and 5-speed automatics that ran with the converters unlocked most of the time, no rev-matching, and such looong gears. Remember when an automatic equipped car would typically hit 0-60 nearly a full second slower than the same exact car but with a manual? Yeah. I had one of those. A 1999 Nissan Maxima with a 5-speed manual, which was a night and day difference from the 4-speed automatic car.

I drove that Maxima and another manual car for probably over 10 years combined, but I'm pretty happy with the automatics these days. They rev-match for you, feel pretty solid running with the converters locked most of the time even at slow speeds, have enough gears and have the right gears, and the Sport Auto especially will really slam you with the shift speeds and firmness. I don't really have any desire to go back to manual, but that's half to do with my wife not being able to drive a manual, and half to do with only having about 25% of normal feel in my left foot these days. I'd love to have another manual car but just not practical for me. Plus my average speed where I live is a whopping 25 mph pretty much going from light to light.

[omaralt]

Once again. Nobody drives a manual nowadays for speed and mpg. Those days are over. If you are tracking or racing then a dct is the better option. But for a more engaging drive a manual is what I'm looking for. A more engaging and fun drive. Only true manual drivers will understand that.

[P-Bass]

Right on brother...

[Luongo]

Is the ZF 8AT in a BMW somehow vastly different than the ZF 8AT in an Audi? I have never heard anyone in Audi forums praising their 8 speed auto, but here at bimmerpost everyone is going crazy how great it is.

I have had many A4 loaners with 8AT in the past but never thought anything of the transmission. It just felt like another slushbox that was always in higher gear than my liking. Every single time I picked my 6MT car back, I was reminded that I have made the right choice.

[Gio72]

It depends on the software too, that is individually developed by the makes.
For example, 8AT reflashed by Alpina fot its B3/B4 is extraordinary.
Said that, for me 8AT with BMW specs is excellent and at the same level of the best DCT

[falar]

Originally Posted by Luongo

Is the ZF 8AT in a BMW somehow vastly different than the ZF 8AT in an Audi? I have never heard anyone in Audi forums praising their 8 speed auto, but here at bimmerpost everyone is going crazy how great it is.

I have had many A4 loaners with 8AT in the past but never thought anything of the transmission. It just felt like another slushbox that was always in higher gear than my liking. Every single time I picked my 6MT car back, I was reminded that I have made the right choice.

The mechanicals could be very similar or even identical (as far as I know A4s aren't like most FWD cars and the engine is longitudinal, not transverse. Could be wrong though I'm not well versed in Audis) but software plays a huge role here. I doubt many A4 buyers are looking for performance compared to the average 3 series buyer that BMW caters to.

[DJ Rocc]

Originally Posted by falar

The mechanicals could be very similar or even identical (as far as I know A4s aren't like most FWD cars and the engine is longitudinal, not transverse. Could be wrong though I'm not well versed in Audis) but software plays a huge role here. I doubt many A4 buyers are looking for performance compared to the average 3 series buyer that BMW caters to.

Very True!

[rjpeaks]

its the same tranny IIRC

[oonowindoo]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

***Update 2 1/2 months in my 8AT 335***

The 8AT is a great transmission. Easily the best auto transmission I've ever driven (but we all know that). When in auto mode, it shifts as smoothly as any car I've been in. In manual mode (which I use very often) I like the nice fast kicks it gives you in shifts. Car shifts wicked fast and is no doubt faster than a manual. I also like the ability to go between paddles and the stick to shift gears...I use the stick when accelerating out of a sharp turn. Sport mode (when in automatic) does a great job of holding gears, its a bit odd at first but it makes sense. My biggest complaint is that when manually downshifting, it gives a slight momentary burst in acceleration when selecting a lower gear. Maybe because the computer tries to rev match and the transmission doesn't decouple from the torque converter on downshifts?

With that said, I like manual better, no question. I'm not unhappy with my decision, but my next 335 (or M3 or S4 or.....) will have a manual transmission. Its more fun. Period.

i knew that was going to happen.

I read the first page and skipped to 4th to see your reaction. it is exactly what i expected.

If you love driving the car, you can make all the excuses to get the AT but after a few months, you will get bored of it.

AT is definitely the most logical choice from Performance to practicability. But at the end of the day it is still not the same as MT.

Many people chose MT before because they had no other choices. For people who chose MT before because they wanted MT, it is hard not to miss MT when the "honeymoon" period is over with AT.