[the_phew]

On a lark, I stopped by the Chevy dealer to test drive the new Camaro. It was the first '16 they've gotten, a grey over black 2LT 6MT (the LGX V6 with 335 HP). It was a pretty eye-opening experience:

-The steering wheel has a tiny diameter and the steering in general has perfect weight/feedback
-The chassis is very taught and engaging without being overly stiff
-The LGX makes beautiful noises, no fake pumped-in engine sounds required. Some nice pops/burbles from the exhaust on overrun as well
-I had forgotten how great the throttle response can be with a sporty n/a engine. Even tuned, the N20 responds almost like a diesel in comparison (low end torque and all)
-The 6MT is much more mechanical than the rubbery BMW shifter; it takes a bit more effort, but engagement is very crisp

My F30 felt like everything (steering, shifter, throttle pedal, chassis) was in a bowl of pudding after the Camaro test drive, and I have the Sport Package. Overall, it drove closer to an E46 M3 than any recent American muscle car I've driven. At least it's proof that automakers can still make affordable, mainstream cars that are engaging to drive! If the Caddy ATS offered this V6 with the 6MT and updated that gauge cluster from a '94 Cavalier, I don't think I'd even consider an F3x.

P.S.-I know the Camaro has blind spots the size of Texas, smaller windows than a tank, a back seat only suitable for small children, interior/exterior styling clearly aimed at a 14 yr old boy, mullet stigma, etc etc etc. None of those things have anything to do with the fact that GM made a car that offers more driving engagement than any current BMW, and it comes pretty well-equipped for $30k, and offers M4-level performance starting at $37k.

[Blubaron79]

Isn't caddy putting that v6 in it next year?

[the_phew]

Originally Posted by Blubaron79

Isn't caddy putting that v6 in it next year?

I think it has it now for the 2016 model year, but they only offer the manual with the 2L turbo. By all accounts, that Ecotec engine is pretty thrashy and inefficient compared to the N20, so the upcoming B48 probably severely outclasses it.

If I'm going the turbo 4 route, I'll trust the Germans (since they are so far ahead in turbo technology). But this LGX and obviously the LT1 are best-of-breed when it comes to n/a engines.

[CalCarNut]

I'm sure GM is loving the comparison. The GC greenhouse is nothing to brag about either so I doubt a Camaro's view out is all that much worse. Even the GM turbo 2.0L 4 banger puts out a healthy 270HP or so. Pull up to a nice restaurant in a BMW and it might find a way to be out front with the rest. You can be sure the Camaro gets street duty or relegated to the back, though lol...(after the Valet takes some life off the tires..)

[bimmer_335]

Originally Posted by the_phew

On a lark, I stopped by the Chevy dealer to test drive the new Camaro. It was the first '16 they've gotten, a grey over black 2LT 6MT (the LGX V6 with 335 HP). It was a pretty eye-opening experience:

-The steering wheel has a tiny diameter and the steering in general has perfect weight/feedback
-The chassis is very taught and engaging without being overly stiff
-The LGX makes beautiful noises, no fake pumped-in engine sounds required. Some nice pops/burbles from the exhaust on overrun as well
-I had forgotten how great the throttle response can be with a sporty n/a engine. Even tuned, the N20 responds almost like a diesel in comparison (low end torque and all)
-The 6MT is much more mechanical than the rubbery BMW shifter; it takes a bit more effort, but engagement is very crisp

My F30 felt like everything (steering, shifter, throttle pedal, chassis) was in a bowl of pudding after the Camaro test drive, and I have the Sport Package. Overall, it drove closer to an E46 M3 than any recent American muscle car I've driven. At least it's proof that automakers can still make affordable, mainstream cars that are engaging to drive! If the Caddy ATS offered this V6 with the 6MT and updated that gauge cluster from a '94 Cavalier, I don't think I'd even consider an F3x.

P.S.-I know the Camaro has blind spots the size of Texas, smaller windows than a tank, a back seat only suitable for small children, interior/exterior styling clearly aimed at a 14 yr old boy, mullet stigma, etc etc etc. None of those things have anything to do with the fact that GM made a car that offers more driving engagement than any current BMW, and it comes pretty well-equipped for $30k, and offers M4-level performance starting at $37k.

Does it have magnetic suspension?!? One i drove a few years back felt like overly tight suspension which was not pleasant at any speed.

[the_phew]

Originally Posted by bimmer_335

Does it have magnetic suspension?!? One i drove a few years back felt like overly tight suspension which was not pleasant at any speed.

I don't think MRC is offered on the V6. We have good roads here, so I don't usually think any vehicle rides poorly.

[the_phew]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

Pull up to a nice restaurant in a BMW and it might find a way to be out front with the rest. You can be sure the Camaro gets street duty or relegated to the back, though lol...(after the Valet takes some life off the tires..)

If I ever care more about where some minimum-wage teenager parks my car than how engaging it is to drive, I'll officially abandon any notion that I'm a driving enthusiast and take up knitting or something.

Your post didn't do anything to dispel stereotypes about SoCal residents or BMW owners

[fecurtis]

If I were going to get a Camaro, I'd rather shove a q-tip into my eye before I got a V6.

V8 or bust, it's a muscle car (or I guess pony car).

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by the_phew

If I ever care more about where some minimum-wage teenager parks my car than how engaging it is to drive, I'll officially abandon any notion that I'm a driving enthusiast and take up knitting or something.

Your post didn't do anything to dispel stereotypes about SoCal residents or BMW owners

LOL. Which stereotypes? Here, BMWs are a dime a dozen on the roads. I said it MIGHT find a way to stay in the front (was tongue in cheek given how common the cars are here.) Take a look at my garage bro..I have a GM car I've had for 20yrs. LOVE it. I doubt I'll keep my current BMW that long.

No way in hell a minimum wage earner touches any of my cars. I NEVER valet park. I'll park and walk to a restaurant. I've never cared about rolling up to an entrance with the thought that it was 'cool'. I may drop wife.com off first if she's in heels though .

That better to dispel the myths you brought up?

[the_phew]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

If I were going to get a Camaro, I'd rather shove a q-tip into my eye before I got a V6.

V8 or bust, it's a muscle car (or I guess pony car).

Agreed, but they didn't have an SS to test. I was just commenting on how engaging it was to drive; the SS probably retains the sublime chassis feedback while adding better noises and gut-wrenching acceleration.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

If I were going to get a Camaro, I'd rather shove a q-tip into my eye before I got a V6.

V8 or bust, it's a muscle car (or I guess pony car).

Pricing is like getting a x28 vs a x35. The engine bump is about $3-4K..but I agree with you..if I was getting a Camaro, it would be full on SS /LT1 equipped.

[Fender150]

Try a 335 6mt with just a stage 1 jb

[dc503]

These threads are great on so many levels.

[TodmordenLad]

I'd rather get the bus than drive one of these

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by the_phew

Agreed, but they didn't have an SS to test. I was just commenting on how engaging it was to drive; the SS probably retains the sublime chassis feedback while adding better noises and gut-wrenching acceleration.

Got it.

I mean I know the NA V6 is a good motor, but I don't think I'd describe it's acceleration as "gut-wrenching". I guess that's also because my car accelerates faster than one.

I have read nothing but glowing reviews for the driving dynamics though.

[CalCarNut]

The new chassis (Alpha) used on the Camaro is pretty state of the art. The LT1 is one of the best engines available and MRC is topnotch. There's nothing wrong with the car from a mechanical standpoint whatsover.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Got it.

I mean I know the NA V6 is a good motor, but I don't think I'd describe it's acceleration as "gut-wrenching". I guess that's also because my car accelerates faster than one.

I have read nothing but glowing reviews for the driving dynamics though.

323hp and 278lb/tq isn't bad...but I'll agree..the torque numbers are just 'ok'.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

The new chassis (Alpha) used on the Camaro is pretty state of the art. The LT1 is one of the best engines available and MRC is topnotch. There's nothing wrong with the car from a mechanical standpoint whatsover.

That applies to pretty much every sporty GM car. It just sucks that they can nail the driving dynamics but fail so miserably in other aspects of the car.

Just a few examples:
-Camaro: You have a better field of vision of your surroundings from a submarine.
-Cadillac ATS: Gauges plucked from a Cavalier. Back seats are suitable for paraplegics only (Camaro is worse but no one buys a Camaro or Mustang thinking "This will be a great car to transport people in!"). Interior designers thought it was a great idea to cover the touch sensitive center stack of the ATS a glossy black material because they figured owners would love to see their interior covered in fingerprints. And the overall shittiness of CUE (I guess I can give that a pass, I avoided the E90 years ago because iDrive made me want to punt a child).
-Corvette: I can never get over the styling. The car already looks like it's been around for 10 years.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by the_phew

On a lark, I stopped by the Chevy dealer to test drive the new Camaro. It was the first '16 they've gotten, a grey over black 2LT 6MT (the LGX V6 with 335 HP). It was a pretty eye-opening experience:

.....My F30 felt like everything (steering, shifter, throttle pedal, chassis) was in a bowl of pudding after the Camaro test drive, and I have the Sport Package. Overall, it drove closer to an E46 M3 than any recent American muscle car I've driven. At least it's proof that automakers can still make affordable, mainstream cars that are engaging to drive! If the Caddy ATS offered this V6 with the 6MT and updated that gauge cluster from a '94 Cavalier, I don't think I'd even consider an F3x.

Does it drive like any non-M BMW you've ever driven?

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

That applies to pretty much every sporty GM car. It just sucks that they can nail the driving dynamics but fail so miserably in other aspects of the car.

Just a few examples:
-Camaro: You have a better field of vision of your surroundings from a submarine.
-Cadillac ATS: Gauges plucked from a Cavalier. Back seats are suitable for paraplegics only (Camaro is worse but no one buys a Camaro or Mustang thinking "This will be a great car to transport people in!"). Interior designers thought it was a great idea to cover the touch sensitive center stack of the ATS a glossy black material because they figured owners would love to see their interior covered in fingerprints. And the overall shittiness of CUE (I guess I can give that a pass, I avoided the E90 years ago because iDrive made me want to punt a child).
-Corvette: I can never get over the styling. The car already looks like it's been around for 10 years.

I have burlwood in my GC...it shows fingerprints in the gloss pretty easily. I just use a microfiber and wipe it clean . I love the ATS-V car but haven't sat in one. IF the dash is that bad, I'd pass too. The view out the back of a GC isn't anything to brag about and the side mirrors are shaped so that your view isn't great either as they care kind of narrow. You get used to it lol.

[the_phew]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

323hp and 278lb/tq isn't bad...but I'll agree..the torque numbers are just 'ok'.

I didn't think the V6 Camaro felt particularly fast or anything; around town it accelerates about the same as my 320i (I have the BMS Stage 1 @ 4psi, so about 230whp, but way more torque than the LGX at cruising RPMs). But the throttle response, engine/exhaust sounds, steering, shifter, chassis, etc were all so much crisper than the F3x.

Sorry about the stereotype comment; I thought you were being serious about the valet thing (a la BJ).

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Does it drive like any non-M BMW you've ever driven?

Non-M? I never drove an E46 330i ZHP, but people said it was very M-like in feedback/engagement, so I would probably say that if I'd ever driven one. The steering and throttle response reminded me a bit of a 996 (the last P-car I've driven), although Porsche dials everything up a notch.

Originally Posted by Fender150

Try a 335 6mt with just a stage 1 jb

I don't see how that would do anything about the numb steering/chassis/shifter. Unless you are talking about the E9x with the N54, then at least you'd have comparable steering and some engagement from the chassis.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

I have burlwood in my GC...it shows fingerprints in the gloss pretty easily. I just use a microfiber and wipe it clean . I love the ATS-V car but haven't sat in one. IF the dash is that bad, I'd pass too. The view out the back of a GC isn't anything to brag about and the side mirrors are shaped so that your view isn't great either as they care kind of narrow. You get used to it lol.

Yeah but you don't have to actually touch it to do anything. In the ATS, all of the controls are touch sensitive.

Imagine if the actual buttons attracted fingerprints. I've sat in one at an auto show and it was littered in fingerprints. Sitting in one gave me anxiety.