[ivanj308]

Reaching out to the inter webs to see if anyone has any ideas. Been fighting timing corrections since switching to MHD and a catted downpipe.
Previously was running a Dinan Elite V1 tuning box.
I am working with a tuner as well as sent logs to MHD and no luck. Corrections occur with MHD OTS 91 and 93 octane tunes as well as with custom tune.
Stock tune appears fine to me

Vehicle is a 2017 BME M240i 6MT with 38000 miles

Things that have been addressed:
Fuel - 93 Octane fuel has been obtained from multiple gas stations. Shell V Power and Mobil. Most recently added 2 gallons of E85 to fuel still having timing corrections.

Plugs - I am on my 2nd set of NGK plugs in 3 weeks. Gapped to 0.022

Downpipe has been checked by two different independent BMW repair shops.

Knock Sensor - It has been suggested that possibly loose bolt or rattle causing knock however stock tune does not appear to have knock/timing issues.

As mentioned car had Dinan Elite v1 for 2 years. Is it possible it had long term effects on vehicle/sensors ?

Logs.
Current Log with Custom Tune and 93 Octane and 2 Gallons of E85

https://datazap.me/u/ivan308/steven-...28-55-56-57-58


Stock Tune 93 Octane
https://datazap.me/u/ivan308/stock-t...og=0&data=5-28


MHD Stage 2 93 with 93 Octane Gas
https://datazap.me/u/ivan308/mhd-sta...og=0&data=5-31

MHD Stage 2 91 with 93 Octane Gas
https://datazap.me/u/ivan308/log-158...og=0&data=5-28

[Bavarian MW]

Okay, WOW! My tuner and I have named my engine the b58dud, I am having the SAME EXACT issues as you in the EXACT SAME car and have been trying to figure it out for months.

I have 2 b58 cars and one gets great power with an OTS map and my 2017 M240i 6sp with 25K miles gets shit timing and on a safe custom tune makes no power. My story is SO close to yours, I couldn't believe I was reading it.

0) I use 93 octance from various top tier stations with no difference
1) bought car with 22K miles, went FBO with MHD OTS STG2 93 octane
2) sent logs to MHD because down on power with timing pulls and throttle closures, Mohit says it is due to fuel, try 91 map, same thing. Add 2 gallons of e85 makes it better but still shitty logs
2.3) switched MAF and coils from my other b58 cause easy, no difference
2.8) tried a tank of race fuel, no difference in logs
3) go through 3 sets of plugs, from oem to z4m40i to NGK 94201, some get misfires, some do not like close gap, i finally got 94201's gapped to .022ish and the car runs best, but still down on power
4) get a custom tune, to see if tuner can see anything hardware related in logs, The final revision of my tune (safe, with no timing pulls) is about 400 horsepower.... This car feels SLOW compared to my other OTS stg 2 b58 car.
I 100% believe that this is NOT the tuners fault, unless someone can give me a solid reason how it could be.

I have also thought about the knock sensor making the car think it has worse fuel than it does also. Now you mention it and it makes me want to rip off the intake manifold and try it.

I know for a fact my car was not tuned before I had it, I know the original owner. So I doubt your Dinan box did anything to make this happen.

I believe my car was not have been driven hard its first 3 years, and thinking that maybe a walnut blast could remedy the issues. Maybe it is not breathing like it should at high rpms with carbon buildup??

My plan for this car was to do Pure800 and HPFP, but I have been VERY hesitant with the issues I have been having. I may just do this anyway, and SEND IT. And pray for good power with safe logs...

I wonder how many people are getting shit logs and dont even realize it...

Here is an example of my OTS stg2 logs look like. This is qith 93 and 2 gallons of e85. https://datazap.me/u/bavarianmw/4-7-2020

I will update here if I figure anything out, and you please do it too. Wish me luck, and I wish you the same! --MW

[OzBMR]

Originally Posted by ivanj308

Reaching out to the inter webs to see if anyone has any ideas. Been fighting timing corrections since switching to MHD and a catted downpipe.
Previously was running a Dinan Elite V1 tuning box.
I am working with a tuner as well as sent logs to MHD and no luck. Corrections occur with MHD OTS 91 and 93 octane tunes as well as with custom tune.
Stock tune appears fine to me

Vehicle is a 2017 BME M240i 6MT with 38000 miles

Things that have been addressed:
Fuel - 93 Octane fuel has been obtained from multiple gas stations. Shell V Power and Mobil. Most recently added 2 gallons of E85 to fuel still having timing corrections.

Plugs - I am on my 2nd set of NGK plugs in 3 weeks. Gapped to 0.022

Downpipe has been checked by two different independent BMW repair shops.

Knock Sensor - It has been suggested that possibly loose bolt or rattle causing knock however stock tune does not appear to have knock/timing issues.

As mentioned car had Dinan Elite v1 for 2 years. Is it possible it had long term effects on vehicle/sensors ?

Logs.
Current Log with Custom Tune and 93 Octane and 2 Gallons of E85

https://datazap.me/u/ivan308/steven-...28-55-56-57-58


Stock Tune 93 Octane
https://datazap.me/u/ivan308/stock-t...og=0&data=5-28


MHD Stage 2 93 with 93 Octane Gas
https://datazap.me/u/ivan308/mhd-sta...og=0&data=5-31

MHD Stage 2 91 with 93 Octane Gas
https://datazap.me/u/ivan308/log-158...og=0&data=5-28

Based on the fact that the low boost, low timing stock tune is OK and when you increase boost and timing you're getting corrections it suggests your fuel is not good enough.

I recommend going back to the OTS Stage 2 91 octane map and adding a good amount of E85 e.g. if you have 8 gallons of 93 in the tank add at least 4.5 gallons of E85. If you already have 93+ 2 gallons of E85 and have about 8 gallons of what would be E15 or so, add another 2 gallons to get to about E30.

Then do some 4th gear logs, you don't need to rev it right out, maybe to 5000 RPM or so just so we can see the fuel rail pressure, timing and eliminate torque limiter activity as a contributor to the corrections

[Torinalth]

long shot, but you both are using MHD, any thought to seeing if you get the same issue with BM3 or MG flasher. While granted it's the same tables in theory, but how they are written or logic used to manipulate could be different to where it's an MHD problem. BM3 had a similar issue to where some tables were not flashing properly till a patch fixed it, something similar could be happening with MHD.

[MTWO]

I think you just have shitty octane and need a better tune to suit it. Maybe try changing pumps as maybe you got a bad batch of gas?

[Bavarian MW]

Originally Posted by OzBMR

Based on the fact that the low boost, low timing stock tune is OK and when you increase boost and timing you're getting corrections it suggests your fuel is not good enough.

I recommend going back to the OTS Stage 2 91 octane map and adding a good amount of E85 e.g. if you have 8 gallons of 93 in the tank add at least 4.5 gallons of E85. If you already have 93+ 2 gallons of E85 and have about 8 gallons of what would be E15 or so, add another 2 gallons to get to about E30.

Then do some 4th gear logs, you don't need to rev it right out, maybe to 5000 RPM or so just so we can see the fuel rail pressure, timing and eliminate torque limiter activity as a contributor to the corrections

I am not OP, I am the second post guy. And I hate to thread jack, but OP and I have what seems to be VERY similar issues, if not the same, so maybe what you suggest can help us both.

SO, here are my logs like you asked for in 4th gear (remember 6MT) up to 5k rpm, and with about e30/e32, on the MHD OTS STG 2 91oct map. Your thoughts?! Thanks for taking a look! --MW

https://datazap.me/u/bavarianmw/4-18-2020-e30

[Bavarian MW]

Originally Posted by Torinalth

long shot, but you both are using MHD, any thought to seeing if you get the same issue with BM3 or MG flasher. While granted it's the same tables in theory, but how they are written or logic used to manipulate could be different to where it's an MHD problem. BM3 had a similar issue to where some tables were not flashing properly till a patch fixed it, something similar could be happening with MHD.

Not OP here, 2P here:

Interesting, I wonder about the tables in the tune, maybe the manual trans being uncommon makes this an uncommon issue?

My other b58 car running "another" tune makes great power and logs(also 6MT). So its been killing me, is there SOMETHING that is different about the b58 (OR THE OTS TUNE) in my MY17 M240 6 MT, compared to those that take a tune just fine? Because it is a rare manual trans car? Because its a more rare 2 Series not a 3? Because it is the first year of the b58? Wish I knew!

For now, I am not ready to dump the cash into another flash just to "test" the theory. Who knows, I may get to that point... Thanks for looking. --MW

[OzBMR]

Originally Posted by Bavarian MW

I am not OP, I am the second post guy. And I hate to thread jack, but OP and I have what seems to be VERY similar issues, if not the same, so maybe what you suggest can help us both.

SO, here are my logs like you asked for in 4th gear (remember 6MT) up to 5k rpm, and with about e30/e32, on the MHD OTS STG 2 91oct map. Your thoughts?! Thanks for taking a look! --MW

https://datazap.me/u/bavarianmw/4-18-2020-e30

Nice logs for analysis

One thing that is consistent in all logs is the prevalence of an active torque limiter 131072, which I think is causing the timing corrections.

Also there seems to be correlation between Load Actual exceeding Load Target, the torque limiter being active and timing corrections.

In the 3rd log, 15_31_44, between 4500 - 4900 RPM, Load Actual does not exceed Load Target, the Torque Limiter is not active, timing improves significantly and corrections almost eliminated, delta for knock adaption decays to almost 0 as well. Timing here is in line with what you would expect for that map with timing at 10 - 11 degrees across all cylinders.

Some suggestions, do one first and then the other:

Try another log Sport+ but long press DSC button >3 seconds to have DSC off. This is to see if it is DSC influence. If you are already doing this OK, just go to next idea.

Try flashing the same tune but select the automatic transmission option. This will lower the reported torque value in DME for the clutch/transmission and may take the torque limiter out of play. For 8AT guys that do not have xHP torque limit adjustment for trans they use this and those that have xHP they select the Manual Trans/xHP option.

[Torinalth]

Originally Posted by Bavarian MW

Not OP here, 2P here:

Interesting, I wonder about the tables in the tune, maybe the manual trans being uncommon makes this an uncommon issue?

My other b58 car running "another" tune makes great power and logs(also 6MT). So its been killing me, is there SOMETHING that is different about the b58 (OR THE OTS TUNE) in my MY17 M240 6 MT, compared to those that take a tune just fine? Because it is a rare manual trans car? Because its a more rare 2 Series not a 3? Because it is the first year of the b58? Wish I knew!

For now, I am not ready to dump the cash into another flash just to "test" the theory. Who knows, I may get to that point... Thanks for looking. --MW

it's not the engine. the engine is just a dumb piece of metal. it's the DME that makes the difference. and while the same engine is in just about every series of car, the DME is not the same in each one. which is why when new versions of the DME hardware changes, but with the same basic config due to having the same engine (340 vs 540 vs x3 m40i vs x5) . It very well could be that your specific dme hardware is different enough with a different setup of tables that needs a tweaking to get it written right. Hell, I just ran across a similar issue with burbles and GTS startup roar not being written on a guys car due to a DME difference from the BM3 enthusiast group. I think it's quite possible, but understand the desire to not drop more money to test
a theory. best of luck.

[M140_BCS]

Originally Posted by Bavarian MW

I am not OP, I am the second post guy. And I hate to thread jack, but OP and I have what seems to be VERY similar issues, if not the same, so maybe what you suggest can help us both.

SO, here are my logs like you asked for in 4th gear (remember 6MT) up to 5k rpm, and with about e30/e32, on the MHD OTS STG 2 91oct map. Your thoughts?! Thanks for taking a look! --MW

https://datazap.me/u/bavarianmw/4-18-2020-e30

Take a look at the fuel rail pressure drop and throttle closures.

Looks like the HPFP completely crashes!

[OzBMR]

Originally Posted by M140_BCS

Take a look at the fuel rail pressure drop and throttle closures.

Looks like the HPFP completely crashes!

Throttle closures are linked to torque limiter.

A complete HPFP crash is where the DME immediately opens waste gate, cuts boost, closes throttle etc This can happen a bit less than 1000 PSI, depending on other variables, AFR actual vs target, rate of decrease in rail pressure, load target to actual load variance etc.

This one you've highlighted is from 1st run and you can see the adaption of the HPFP already in run 2 and 3.

The more runs you do, the more the DME dials in the solenoid and eventually it should look like mine running E34 at 18 - 19 PSI and holding 2900 PSI target.

Of course there is a limit to how much adaption can occur, then a higher capacity HPFP is required.

With the stock HPFP you can avoid/minimise HPFP crashes and major pressure dips by slowly increasing ethanol content and/or load/boost.

[Bavarian MW]

Originally Posted by OzBMR

Nice logs for analysis

One thing that is consistent in all logs is the prevalence of an active torque limiter 131072, which I think is causing the timing corrections.

Also there seems to be correlation between Load Actual exceeding Load Target, the torque limiter being active and timing corrections.

In the 3rd log, 15_31_44, between 4500 - 4900 RPM, Load Actual does not exceed Load Target, the Torque Limiter is not active, timing improves significantly and corrections almost eliminated, delta for knock adaption decays to almost 0 as well. Timing here is in line with what you would expect for that map with timing at 10 - 11 degrees across all cylinders.

Some suggestions, do one first and then the other:

Try another log Sport+ but long press DSC button >3 seconds to have DSC off. This is to see if it is DSC influence. If you are already doing this OK, just go to next idea.

Try flashing the same tune but select the automatic transmission option. This will lower the reported torque value in DME for the clutch/transmission and may take the torque limiter out of play. For 8AT guys that do not have xHP torque limit adjustment for trans they use this and those that have xHP they select the Manual Trans/xHP option.

Okay, interesting. I am not following 100%, but can see how a torque limiter can be a problem..

These 3 are on OTS ST2 91oct, with e30/e32, AND auto trans option checked. And yes, DTC and DSC off here. Wanna take a look, see anything useful? I do still see the torque limiter 131072.

https://datazap.me/u/bavarianmw/4-19-2020-2-0

[ivanj308]

OZBMR you be on to something with the torque lim.

Here is a quick log from today using the 8AT tune. Cleanest log I have had in a while. Not counting the issue solved yet as I have had clean logs in the past and then the next log was horrible.

https://datazap.me/u/ivan308/mhd-sta...og=0&data=5-28

[OzBMR]

Originally Posted by Bavarian MW

Okay, interesting. I am not following 100%, but can see how a torque limiter can be a problem..

These 3 are on OTS ST2 91oct, with e30/e32, AND auto trans option checked. And yes, DTC and DSC off here. Wanna take a look, see anything useful? I do still see the torque limiter 131072.

https://datazap.me/u/bavarianmw/4-19-2020-2-0

Originally Posted by ivanj308

OZBMR you be on to something with the torque lim.

Here is a quick log from today using the 8AT tune. Cleanest log I have had in a while. Not counting the issue solved yet as I have had clean logs in the past and then the next log was horrible.

https://datazap.me/u/ivan308/mhd-sta...og=0&data=5-28

In both of these cases as soon as Load Actual exceeds Load Required the Torque Limiter is triggered and timing is compromised.

Bavarian MW has eliminated octane as an issue by using E30+, eliminated wheel spin as an issue by using 4th gear and also tested in Sport+ with DSC on and off and you've both tested the 8AT option to reduce reported torque the limiter is still being triggered.

IvanJ308, you may want to try a 4th gear log.

I think you should both contact MHD with the logs and test results and see what suggestions/solution they can offer.

It seems more than a coincidence that the cars are both M240i 6MT and exhibiting the same behavior.

[Bavarian MW]

Originally Posted by OzBMR

In both of these cases as soon as Load Actual exceeds Load Required the Torque Limiter is triggered and timing is compromised.

Bavarian MW has eliminated octane as an issue by using E30+, eliminated wheel spin as an issue by using 4th gear and also tested in Sport+ with DSC on and off and you've both tested the 8AT option to reduce reported torque the limiter is still being triggered.

IvanJ308, you may want to try a 4th gear log.

I think you should both contact MHD with the logs and test results and see what suggestions/solution they can offer.

It seems more than a coincidence that the cars are both M240i 6MT and exhibiting the same behavior.

Thanks OzBMR, I never would have realized about the load actual / required.

And thanks again for posting Ivan. I have been racking my brain for months trying to figure out what is wrong with my BMW, and now I see it might not "just be me" lol.

I emailed MHD just now (actually replied to their email from months ago where they advised me it was fuel related), a link to this thread. Hopefully we get some solid guidance. --MW

[Bavarian MW]

Something interesting, as me and OP have been talking. Both of our DME's have recent BMW software.

His DME was updated at the dealer about 6 months ago. My DME showed a required update in February and it was flashed also. --MW

[ivanj308]

Ok made the switch to BM3. Here are a couple of logs. Not sure if they are much better.
Am I searching for the Holly Grail/ Unicorn hoping to get timing correction free logs with 93 Octane ?

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ea2...729b67710a6a8a

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ea2...0b435e4b10d124

[kern417]

Originally Posted by ivanj308

Ok made the switch to BM3. Here are a couple of logs. Not sure if they are much better.
Am I searching for the Holly Grail/ Unicorn hoping to get timing correction free logs with 93 Octane ?

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ea2...729b67710a6a8a

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5ea2...0b435e4b10d124

It still doesn't make sense to me that you had timing issues on a custom tune. But that being said, the logs don't look horrible. If you can add 1-2 gallons of E85 that may help clean it up.

[YouFools]

followed this thread, good info in here. Took some logs on my Stage 2 BM3 93oct 340i. I noticed timing had it's dips and irregularities as well. I have an open ticket with Pro Tune Freaks in order to see if this is a mechanical, tuning, or random issue. I'll post my logs if anyone wants to see.
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f33...729b1dc018704e

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f33...90c6558579c9ce

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f33...0b43618ef39aae


It seems to be Cyl's #1 and #6 as the ones that show as the deviators. Let me know if any of you have any more input or questions!

[B58SP]

Wow this is the EXACT same issue on the EXACT same car 17' M240i 6MT. Tried E30 and I know my plugs are 2 months old and the correct gap etc.

[tallestmex]

Was following this thread and noticed no more replies since September last year! Did you all get your timing in check?

[dmanb2b]

people need to stop running .022 gap