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      09-29-2020, 01:00 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty View Post
Two people just posted within 24 hours about a whine and will be proceeding with timing chain replacement. That is just on one thread and isolated to members of Bimmerpost.

But let's call the issue imaginary. They'll be spending $8k combined. That's clearly not a lot of money. They are clearly not affected by BMWs negligence and incompetence. Nope, no harm there. I guess the whine that they're hearing is really just the screams of internet rhetoric echoing across the globe.

Ps lawsuits operate on facts and evidence, not rhetoric. Lawsuits and the courts are fair and just. Courts and law form the basis of society. If it were really that skewed, then there would be much bigger problems for BMW and other corporations than paying for a timing chain.

And you say the cases are very low. Can you provide evidence? One thread is at 13%. That is not low. Indies and dealers back this.

If I knew about the issue and was going to buy an N20, I would use it to drive the price down. I don't care about KBB.

You can believe what you want, but I feel others reading this post need to see reality and make an informed judgement. Anyone can do as they wish and may formulate their own opinion as they see fit.
To be completely fair, timing chains wear, its a fact, I'm sure a decent amount of failures come from high mileage, just the same as on a mercedes, or an audi, or a chevy, they do wear, its impossible to make components that will never wear out. The only concerning circumstances is when they fail under 50k miles, as that would be considered premature, after 100k I think its somewhat expected. Now, how many of the timing chain failures happened to cars under 50k miles? a handful for sure, but a much much smaller percentage.
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      09-29-2020, 01:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMachuca3d View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty View Post
Two people just posted within 24 hours about a whine and will be proceeding with timing chain replacement. That is just on one thread and isolated to members of Bimmerpost.

But let's call the issue imaginary. They'll be spending $8k combined. That's clearly not a lot of money. They are clearly not affected by BMWs negligence and incompetence. Nope, no harm there. I guess the whine that they're hearing is really just the screams of internet rhetoric echoing across the globe.

Ps lawsuits operate on facts and evidence, not rhetoric. Lawsuits and the courts are fair and just. Courts and law form the basis of society. If it were really that skewed, then there would be much bigger problems for BMW and other corporations than paying for a timing chain.

And you say the cases are very low. Can you provide evidence? One thread is at 13%. That is not low. Indies and dealers back this.

If I knew about the issue and was going to buy an N20, I would use it to drive the price down. I don't care about KBB.

You can believe what you want, but I feel others reading this post need to see reality and make an informed judgement. Anyone can do as they wish and may formulate their own opinion as they see fit.
To be completely fair, timing chains wear, its a fact, I'm sure a decent amount of failures come from high mileage, just the same as on a mercedes, or an audi, or a chevy, they do wear, its impossible to make components that will never wear out. The only concerning circumstances is when they fail under 50k miles, as that would be considered premature, after 100k I think its somewhat expected. Now, how many of the timing chain failures happened to cars under 50k miles? a handful for sure, but a much much smaller percentage.
Timing chains should be good up to 300k km or something ridiculous like that. That's why it's a chain, not a belt. If it had to be changed at 80k, then it's essentially just a very very expensive belt. A belt on someone's car I know only need replacement at 100k. Looks like it's even better than a chain.

Your right, we don't know the median failure km. What we do know is that these cars aren't that old, and the issues are happening.

My dealer said that they did many 2012 F30s and X3s had a higher rate. They said it was the worst of all the years. They said they always had at least one car in on timing chain for quite some time on those models. It couldn't have been very high mileage a few years ago. They said 2013 and up is better but still prevalent. He said it's not a one off case.
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      09-29-2020, 04:19 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty View Post
Timing chains should be good up to 300k km or something ridiculous like that. That's why it's a chain, not a belt. If it had to be changed at 80k, then it's essentially just a very very expensive belt. A belt on someone's car I know only need replacement at 100k. Looks like it's even better than a chain.

Your right, we don't know the median failure km. What we do know is that these cars aren't that old, and the issues are happening.

My dealer said that they did many 2012 F30s and X3s had a higher rate. They said it was the worst of all the years. They said they always had at least one car in on timing chain for quite some time on those models. It couldn't have been very high mileage a few years ago. They said 2013 and up is better but still prevalent. He said it's not a one off case.
thats funny. when i spoke to my dealership they where like "we havent done a single one, is that a common issue?" they're all liars.
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      09-29-2020, 05:59 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty View Post
Timing chains should be good up to 300k km or something ridiculous like that. That's why it's a chain, not a belt. If it had to be changed at 80k, then it's essentially just a very very expensive belt. A belt on someone's car I know only need replacement at 100k. Looks like it's even better than a chain.

Your right, we don't know the median failure km. What we do know is that these cars aren't that old, and the issues are happening.

My dealer said that they did many 2012 F30s and X3s had a higher rate. They said it was the worst of all the years. They said they always had at least one car in on timing chain for quite some time on those models. It couldn't have been very high mileage a few years ago. They said 2013 and up is better but still prevalent. He said it's not a one off case.
thats funny. when i spoke to my dealership they where like "we havent done a single one, is that a common issue?" they're all liars.
Sounds like the dealer and corp.

I know an employee in parts on a more personal level. Perhaps that's the only reason why.
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      10-02-2020, 11:51 PM   #27
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Has anyone had this done by pros? If so, any issues... ?

My n20 has ~64,000 miles and is now experiencing the whining. I'm likely to spend the $4k to get it done but before I do it I just want to check to see if anyone has had any residual issues after getting it done.

I'm assuming as long as the job is done properly that everything should be smooth going forward but I just want to make sure before dropping (ugh) the cash.
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      10-03-2020, 12:02 AM   #28
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My n20 has ~64,000 miles and is now experiencing the whining. I'm likely to spend the $4k to get it done but before I do it I just want to check to see if anyone has had any residual issues after getting it done.

I'm assuming as long as the job is done properly that everything should be smooth going forward but I just want to make sure before dropping (ugh) the cash.
Make sure you go to a trustworthy and reputable indie who knows what they are doing. If the job is done right, with everything in place, procedures followed, and all bolts and screws torqued to spec, you should not have any issues and be worry free.

Make sure that the indie provides some assurance or warranty for their work. My Indy would guarantee and insure their work free of defects.

Also note that you can have 75% of it paid by BMW. Make sure that the indie keeps a detailed and meticulous parts sheet of only, and I repeat, only BMW OEM parts. Take a video that includes the whine, the VIN, and the odometer. Technically, you only need the parts sheet and receipt. but do the video as backup.

It would be cool to see some internal pics of what's happening to the guide and chain leading to this problem. If you could share that, that would be really awesome.

How often did you do oil changes? What year and model?
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      10-03-2020, 01:56 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty View Post
Make sure you go to a trustworthy and reputable indie who knows what they are doing. If the job is done right, with everything in place, procedures followed, and all bolts and screws torqued to spec, you should not have any issues and be worry free.

Make sure that the indie provides some assurance or warranty for their work. My Indy would guarantee and insure their work free of defects.

Also note that you can have 75% of it paid by BMW. Make sure that the indie keeps a detailed and meticulous parts sheet of only, and I repeat, only BMW OEM parts. Take a video that includes the whine, the VIN, and the odometer. Technically, you only need the parts sheet and receipt. but do the video as backup.

It would be cool to see some internal pics of what's happening to the guide and chain leading to this problem. If you could share that, that would be really awesome.

How often did you do oil changes? What year and model?
Well I bought the car used and the owner averaged about 12,000 miles between changes up to 60k miles. I have a BMW Master Tech who has a lift at home that could open it up to take a look at it soon to see if there's any sludge, but I'm not sure how much he would charge to get under the valve cover to fully check...I hear it's a $1,000 job. He would charge less, hopefully like $400...but I could just hold out for BMW NA to help out and have the valve cover and oil pain checked while the OIL PUMP CHAIN and TIMING CHAIN assembly are being replaced...

I am getting a diagnostic at a BMW dealer for the oil pump drive chain (the whining noise). So I can use that when I contact BMW NA about any coverage they can (and SHOULD) offer.

The timing chain at the moment is actually pretty taut and has zero slack. But I'm still pretty nervous driving because of the imminent failure caused once the oil pump fails. As far as I understand the timing chain assembly could go very shortly after the oil pump fails, like on the same drive shortly. This is all very new to me - I am learning as I go...

One peace of mind that the Master Tech gave me is that I could proceed to change the oil every 2-2.5 thousand miles from now on (for a period of time) which would prevent any future sludge potential and also clean out the engine sludge as well over time. This makes me feel alot better about my future with this car (which I F'n LOVE)...and have several plans for in the future. As far as pics, right now the chain and guide look the same under the cap as any others I've seen. I will take pictures of the drive chain, timing chain, guide, and assembly once the job takes place hopefully it will be within the next week. But, at the moment, there is HOPE ! Thanks for the response as I consider an indie as well
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      10-03-2020, 04:17 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by 335terp View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty View Post
Make sure you go to a trustworthy and reputable indie who knows what they are doing. If the job is done right, with everything in place, procedures followed, and all bolts and screws torqued to spec, you should not have any issues and be worry free.

Make sure that the indie provides some assurance or warranty for their work. My Indy would guarantee and insure their work free of defects.

Also note that you can have 75% of it paid by BMW. Make sure that the indie keeps a detailed and meticulous parts sheet of only, and I repeat, only BMW OEM parts. Take a video that includes the whine, the VIN, and the odometer. Technically, you only need the parts sheet and receipt. but do the video as backup.

It would be cool to see some internal pics of what's happening to the guide and chain leading to this problem. If you could share that, that would be really awesome.

How often did you do oil changes? What year and model?
Well I bought the car used and the owner averaged about 12,000 miles between changes up to 60k miles. I have a BMW Master Tech who has a lift at home that could open it up to take a look at it soon to see if there's any sludge, but I'm not sure how much he would charge to get under the valve cover to fully check...I hear it's a $1,000 job. He would charge less, hopefully like $400...but I could just hold out for BMW NA to help out and have the valve cover and oil pain checked while the OIL PUMP CHAIN and TIMING CHAIN assembly are being replaced...

I am getting a diagnostic at a BMW dealer for the oil pump drive chain (the whining noise). So I can use that when I contact BMW NA about any coverage they can (and SHOULD) offer.

The timing chain at the moment is actually pretty taut and has zero slack. But I'm still pretty nervous driving because of the imminent failure caused once the oil pump fails. As far as I understand the timing chain assembly could go very shortly after the oil pump fails, like on the same drive shortly. This is all very new to me - I am learning as I go...

One peace of mind that the Master Tech gave me is that I could proceed to change the oil every 2-2.5 thousand miles from now on (for a period of time) which would prevent any future sludge potential and also clean out the engine sludge as well over time. This makes me feel alot better about my future with this car (which I F'n LOVE)...and have several plans for in the future. As far as pics, right now the chain and guide look the same under the cap as any others I've seen. I will take pictures of the drive chain, timing chain, guide, and assembly once the job takes place hopefully it will be within the next week. But, at the moment, there is HOPE ! Thanks for the response as I consider an indie as well
Great. Ya the oil change intervals are quite lengthy, and thanks for answering, because it does give that correlation between long oil change intervals and the whine.

Just so that you know, you are legally covered and will be paid by BMW at 75%. It has been settled. You would need to pay the other 25%. You just need to follow BMW requirements and they will reimburse, assuming that your year and model is included.

The whine is all you need and is the only metric used to determine the issue. There is no need to inspect it under the valve cover first. When doing the procedure, the valve cover and oil pan are removed as part of the process so no need to pay extra. With this procedure, you can pretty much see everything in the engine without paying extras for removing things. If they are charging you for that, then they are ripping you off.

Personally, I would definitely not drive it at all until the chain is changed, unless you are okay with possibly having to get a new engine. The whine is there, so if you continue to drive it, your putting the engine at quite a significant risk. I would consider a tow truck for moving it around. Just a heads up.
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      10-04-2020, 10:21 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty View Post
Great. Ya the oil change intervals are quite lengthy, and thanks for answering, because it does give that correlation between long oil change intervals and the whine.

Just so that you know, you are legally covered and will be paid by BMW at 75%. It has been settled. You would need to pay the other 25%. You just need to follow BMW requirements and they will reimburse, assuming that your year and model is included.

The whine is all you need and is the only metric used to determine the issue. There is no need to inspect it under the valve cover first. When doing the procedure, the valve cover and oil pan are removed as part of the process so no need to pay extra. With this procedure, you can pretty much see everything in the engine without paying extras for removing things. If they are charging you for that, then they are ripping you off.

Personally, I would definitely not drive it at all until the chain is changed, unless you are okay with possibly having to get a new engine. The whine is there, so if you continue to drive it, your putting the engine at quite a significant risk. I would consider a tow truck for moving it around. Just a heads up.
Wow, 75% that's not bad at all! Is there a link to something in writing that I can use as ammunition to this? The dealer(s) did not say anything about the lawsuit being settled.. they basically just said that they had to diagnose it first as proof of the whine, then I could call BMW NA.

I also was strongly considering the tow trucks, I haven't driven the car for 2 days but drove it for almost 7 days with the whine. Even if I were to drive it, isn't there some kind of warning that happens when the oil pump fails? giving me time to just pull over and shut it off? I should probably just not risk it.

I'm aware the valve cover is not needed to inspect the issue, I was just curious about that because of the long oil change intervals. Well, this is looking pretty promising. I'll be making my phone calls at open of offices tomorrow!
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      10-04-2020, 11:52 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335terp View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty View Post
Great. Ya the oil change intervals are quite lengthy, and thanks for answering, because it does give that correlation between long oil change intervals and the whine.

Just so that you know, you are legally covered and will be paid by BMW at 75%. It has been settled. You would need to pay the other 25%. You just need to follow BMW requirements and they will reimburse, assuming that your year and model is included.

The whine is all you need and is the only metric used to determine the issue. There is no need to inspect it under the valve cover first. When doing the procedure, the valve cover and oil pan are removed as part of the process so no need to pay extra. With this procedure, you can pretty much see everything in the engine without paying extras for removing things. If they are charging you for that, then they are ripping you off.

Personally, I would definitely not drive it at all until the chain is changed, unless you are okay with possibly having to get a new engine. The whine is there, so if you continue to drive it, your putting the engine at quite a significant risk. I would consider a tow truck for moving it around. Just a heads up.
Wow, 75% that's not bad at all! Is there a link to something in writing that I can use as ammunition to this? The dealer(s) did not say anything about the lawsuit being settled.. they basically just said that they had to diagnose it first as proof of the whine, then I could call BMW NA.

I also was strongly considering the tow trucks, I haven't driven the car for 2 days but drove it for almost 7 days with the whine. Even if I were to drive it, isn't there some kind of warning that happens when the oil pump fails? giving me time to just pull over and shut it off? I should probably just not risk it.

I'm aware the valve cover is not needed to inspect the issue, I was just curious about that because of the long oil change intervals. Well, this is looking pretty promising. I'll be making my phone calls at open of offices tomorrow!
Ya it is has been signed as a preliminary settlement and will become official as part of the process probably in February. Until then, BMW will act as if nothing happened or this doesn't even exist, and they have no legal obligation to pay until February. However, just keep your receipts and you can then submit it when the settlement is official. Again this is legally binding for BMW and those who choose to remain apart of the class action. So no need for arguments if you want to wait and accept the 75%. You could still argue for 100%, but once official, if you don't opt out of the settlement, then you are also bound by its terms, and there is no opportunity to argue.

If the low oil pressure light comes on, it's typically already finished at that point, or some damage has been done. That light means the chain has come apart, and there's fragments that have gone into the oil that will be blocking the intake or just generally be contaminating the oil depending on which chain came apart. If the primary chain comes apart, then the timing will also be off which of course causes many irreversible/expensive problems.

There is a lot of info here both on the issue and settlement: Another F30 N20 Blown Motor Thread https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1614899
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      10-04-2020, 11:57 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335terp View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty View Post
Great. Ya the oil change intervals are quite lengthy, and thanks for answering, because it does give that correlation between long oil change intervals and the whine.

Just so that you know, you are legally covered and will be paid by BMW at 75%. It has been settled. You would need to pay the other 25%. You just need to follow BMW requirements and they will reimburse, assuming that your year and model is included.

The whine is all you need and is the only metric used to determine the issue. There is no need to inspect it under the valve cover first. When doing the procedure, the valve cover and oil pan are removed as part of the process so no need to pay extra. With this procedure, you can pretty much see everything in the engine without paying extras for removing things. If they are charging you for that, then they are ripping you off.

Personally, I would definitely not drive it at all until the chain is changed, unless you are okay with possibly having to get a new engine. The whine is there, so if you continue to drive it, your putting the engine at quite a significant risk. I would consider a tow truck for moving it around. Just a heads up.
Wow, 75% that's not bad at all! Is there a link to something in writing that I can use as ammunition to this? The dealer(s) did not say anything about the lawsuit being settled.. they basically just said that they had to diagnose it first as proof of the whine, then I could call BMW NA.

I also was strongly considering the tow trucks, I haven't driven the car for 2 days but drove it for almost 7 days with the whine. Even if I were to drive it, isn't there some kind of warning that happens when the oil pump fails? giving me time to just pull over and shut it off? I should probably just not risk it.

I'm aware the valve cover is not needed to inspect the issue, I was just curious about that because of the long oil change intervals. Well, this is looking pretty promising. I'll be making my phone calls at open of offices tomorrow!
And actually, I need to also mention that since you said you had 64000 miles on the engine, you may be eligible for the 7 year 70k mile warranty, if you still fall within the 7 years. In that case, BMW pays 100%
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      10-04-2020, 12:09 PM   #34
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I also found alot of details on this link - not sure if it 100% accurate but it's very comprehensive in the breakdown.

https://www.law360.com/articles/1304...ne-defect-suit

Here's some excerpts:

After the initial complaint in 2017, BMW of North America extended the engine warranty for the chain assembly components from the original four years or 50,000 miles to seven years or 70,000 miles.

As part of the settlement, BMW agreed to continue to honor that extension and will also reimburse people for unreimbursed past chain assemblies repair or costs that took place before eight years or 100,000 miles.

Replacing both chain assemblies (primary timing chain, tensioner and rails/guides together with the oil pump/counterbalance shaft chain and sprockets) costs about $4,500-$5,000 if there is no engine damage, the agreement said. And plaintiffs have gotten estimates upward of $12,000 for engine replacement, the filing said.

The settlement will reimburse customers who had out-of-pocket expenses to repair or replace one failed timing chain module and/or one failed oil pump drive chain module.

If the parts failure happened before the seven years or 70,000 miles threshold, the customer will be reimbursed 100% of the cost, including any associated engine damage, for work done at an authorized BMW Center. For work done at an independent service center, BMW will reimburse up to $3,000 for the timing chain module or oil pump drive chain module and up to $7,500 for engine failure, according to the settlement.

Failures between years seven and eight and up to 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, will be reimbursed for work done at an authorized BMW Center "in accordance with a contribution schedule" that decreases the reimbursement amount as the mileage increases, the settlement said.

The same sloping reimbursement schedule applies for work done at an independent service center, but it's capped at $3,000 for the timing chain module, oil pump drive chain module repairs and $7,500 for the engine failure repairs, according to the agreement.

Engine chain parts that fail in the future will have to be repaired at authorized BMW Centers only, giving those class vehicles up to eight years or 100,000 miles and is also subject to a schedule that reimburses less as the mileage on the vehicle climbs, according to the deal.

Also, for one year from the settlement's effective date, any class vehicle with less than 100,000 miles, regardless of its age, that experiences timing chain module failure, oil pump drive chain module failure, or engine damage or failure due to timing chain module or oil pump drive chain module failure, may go to an authorized BMW Center for repair, subject to a decreasing reimbursement rate as the mileage on the vehicle increases, the agreement states.


Read more at: https://www.law360.com/articles/1304...-suit?copied=1
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