05-15-2019, 12:11 PM | #1 |
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Boost Control Options
Just wondering what options are available for boost control if you are running a flash tune. I know people do flash/JB4 combo but the JB4 is expensive just to be a boost controller.
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05-20-2019, 12:04 PM | #2 |
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Bumping this back up. Jeez, so it seems there are no other boost control options besides the JB4? Is that what I should be lead to believe?
Has anyone used the Turbo Smart E2 Boost Controller? |
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05-20-2019, 02:39 PM | #3 |
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What are you trying to achieve by running a boost controller?
The better option is running a flash tuning platform like BM3 or MHD and having different maps for different octane/ethanol mixtures.
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05-20-2019, 03:43 PM | #4 |
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I'm not smart enough to have a technical discussion on this but from what I have read from the various tuners who post here is that you do not control boost, you request torque. Boost is something that is in response to the torque request. So I would conclude you can't just turn up the boost and get what you want. Piggybacks try to fool the system into thinking the boost is lower than it really is to trigger higher boost.
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05-20-2019, 05:40 PM | #6 |
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I'm with dotfiles, what are you actually trying to do? You don't need a boost controller if you run a flash tune (the flash is 100x better, first hand experience doing both).
As for boost controllers, there is JB4 and Active Autowerke Active 8. JB4 will allow you to run WMI, and is typically the only reason that you'd want a controller + tune. AA is just more power for a non-tune setup. If it's for logging, BM3 has a dongle that you can use as well for mobile devices. |
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05-21-2019, 05:00 PM | #7 | |
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I thought the reason people combine JB4 with flashes is so that the boost is always on target (on top of being used for WMI). Only thing I'm doing with my car is spirited street and backroad driving with the occasional race nights. I just want to make sure I am getting the most power out of the stock turbo. Don't plan on upgrading turbos anytime soon. I figured the Turbo Smart E2 boost controller or something similar would be a much cheaper option than a JB4. |
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05-21-2019, 06:20 PM | #9 | |
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However, I would recommend going with a flash tune. Many people have moved away from the piggybacks now that there are many flash tuning options for the B58 because they are more consistent, keep your transmission shifting as smooth as stock, and prevent throttle closures; all of which are problems you may see with piggybacks. Plus they make more power
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05-21-2019, 10:57 PM | #10 | |
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05-22-2019, 08:20 AM | #11 |
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Limitations how? I ran a piggy back for 2 years, and now with the BM3:
1) Never seen a fuel cap limit hit yet. 2) No longer get torque limitations on gear changes. 3) Higher power until redline. Other than WMI (water meth injection) or perhaps running a larger turbo, I'd need more info why a "stock car -- downpipe, intake, exhaust" would ever need more than just a flash. The JB4 is just massaging the boost numbers to allow the DME to give you higher boost before the wastegate opens. Something that the flash tune can change now as well. Unless the issue is flash tuning is cutting into your piggyback sales. |
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05-22-2019, 10:56 AM | #12 |
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More flash sales just means more people who will need our B58 fueling upgrades sooner or later so no complaints here!
Off the top of my head active safety systems are not as effective flash only. The JB4 can monitor boost, fuel trims, AFR, fuel pressure, and abort a run at the first sign of problems. The flash tuning logic will let you pull along with tuning out of whack. This has become a big issue with the B58 due to the fuel pump limitations we're finding especially on E85. Allows on the fly map changes without having to reflash including boost by gear changes on the fly which are critical to dialing in for good track times. The ability to change over to a VALET map on the fly is useful also. JB4 provides full time in dash gauges for boost, air/fuel ratio, timing, exhaust flap changes, etc. And logging to your smart phone full time without having to install separate hardware for it. Ability to auto tune boost control, boost targets based on fuel mixtures, eliminate most of the requirements for continual custom tuning that comes with flash maps. The biggest thing though is the level of tuning and flash mapping provided free of charge by BMS. Last edited by Fuel-It!; 05-22-2019 at 11:17 AM.. |
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05-22-2019, 05:31 PM | #13 | |
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05-23-2019, 08:48 AM | #14 | |
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Considering the JB4 can run without the OBDII connector, are you 100% sure they use all this logic? On a non-WMI vehicle they are just scaling TMAP pressures back based on RPM to force the DME to raise boost pressures past the actual targets for more fuel. JB4 does rock for logging though. But you can do that with BM3 if you desire as well. |
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05-23-2019, 11:03 AM | #15 | |
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Flash only safety systems exist but they are just really limited compared to what you can do with the addition of an external system. For the JB4 safety systems to work it requires OBDII access. The non-OBDII option is just like a Stage1 tune for mild customers. |
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05-23-2019, 08:32 PM | #16 | ||
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Currently running the MHD BEF + JB4, E40, catless DP, BMS intake, and 100% meth injection and I'm almost certain it's at 500whp with only 19-20 psi. I did not dyno the car because I'm installing a Pure stage 1 this weekend and I'll be making a DIY video for those that plan on doing it later on
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05-24-2019, 04:15 PM | #17 |
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Piggybacks are out and flash is in. Get with the times.
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05-25-2019, 09:26 AM | #18 | |
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How would putting a JB4 on with a flash tune that you're identifying as seriously flawed supposed to be better? The flash is still doing all the fuel metering regardless of the JB4 being installed. I'm done here... the circular insanity of your logic is hurting my brain. |
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05-25-2019, 10:53 AM | #19 | |
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The JB4 provides an extra level of safety and tuning ability beyond what you can do flash only. You can certainly tune without a JB4 but it's just a very useful tool to have around. In the example above if there are issues that crop up the JB4 is there to spot them before you can behind the wheel and drop you to a low boost VALET map before you damage your engine. |
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05-29-2019, 09:00 PM | #20 |
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I think there is some confusion on what the JB4 can actually do. Under normal operation, it scales back the readings from the TMAP and MAP to spoof the DME into hitting higher boost levels to hit the torque targets.
The OBDII connection allows it to sniff the CAN bus messages and then it can manipulate the TMAP and MAP readings going to the DME for special functions (power limit by gear, valet, cold engine boost retard, etc). The DME (aka the flash) is still handling all the safety for the engine. It cannot change messages on the CAN bus. So when you talk "safety", it's basically all DME (aka flash). The JB4 does hook inline with the fuel pressure sensor to do that same pressure manipulation like the MAP/TMAP. It can take those CAN messages and give you read only logging, which it is one of the best tools for doing this. |
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05-30-2019, 11:21 AM | #21 |
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The extra safety comes from it being able to monitor your tuning in real time and follow various logic paths that are not configured in flash only tuning.
I can't tell you how many flash customers I've had report breaking stuff while doing logs to send back to their remote tuner especially with new builds. Then you look at the log after the break down and you wonder how the car was even running like that yet people do 2-3 full throttle runs of Russian Roulette on it. With the JB4 in there you have a tuner monitoring your vitals full time every time and aborting a run if they get really ugly. Not to mention all the other various benefits. |
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05-30-2019, 11:25 AM | #22 |
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The extra safety comes from it being able to monitor your tuning in real time and follow various logic paths that are not configured in flash only tuning.
I can't tell you how many flash customers I've had report breaking stuff while doing logs to send back to their remote tuner especially with new builds. Then you look at the log after the break down and you wonder how the car was even running like that yet people do 2-3 full throttle runs of Russian Roulette on it. With the JB4 in there you have a tuner monitoring your vitals full time every time and aborting a run if they get really ugly. Not to mention all the other various benefits. |
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