[DaveA]

Originally Posted by Witney

To give any balance to this I rather think you should consider Labour's PFI spending spree.

That's a very good point indeed and, as far as I am concerned, PFI turned into a right old mess...

Being, fundamentally, a way to take part of the cost of delivering services out of the annual books (and hence improve "year-on" figures) and thrust it into future books, where it can be another problem for another day, it was, in theory, not too bad of a basic idea... Offsetting costs over a whole life (hey, many of us here use finance packages to buy our cars on much the same sorts of principals)...

But the implementation was woeful and we have all read the horror stories of, basically, the vast sums of money these projects end up costing vrs what they might have cost ...

Implementation is the key, and eyes were definitely taken off balls there, I feel...

Originally Posted by Witney

Plus maybe Gordon Brown, that financial whiz, selling the UK's gold reserves at knock down prices after broadcasting his intention to do so...401 tonnes of it for $275 an ounce. Currently sitting at $1,514 an ounce........

I am no poster boy for New Labour, I would like to be clear about that... But the point I am trying to make is that the other side really have not made any better job of it, given the reins...

As for the gold thing.. Heck, we all are faced with situations we need to deal with and decisions we would rather not make... I owned a car once that I bought for £100k, sold 18 months later for £75k... It's now worth 2, 3 times that....

Did I want to sell... No... Did I need to sell... Yes...

Brown is long gone...

The question is now about where do we go from here...

[TodmordenLad]

Oh, well, that's that then. The motion to back remaining in the EU at Labour's conference has failed. Labour is still on the fence on the biggest issue facing the UK since WW2.
As Robert Preston put it, "For spectators like me - who spent 15 years observing the tactics of China's leaders - all this is quite familiar. For passionate Labour Remainers, it's infuriating."

[zofinger]

Can i paraphrase what just happened at the Lab conference: The vote was tight...about 52/48... and those who disagreed (ie. wanted the party to take a 'remain in the EU' stance at a GE) argued for another vote. Just saying.

[TimMcC]

Originally Posted by zofinger

Can i paraphrase what just happened at the Lab conference: The vote was tight...about 52/48... and those who disagreed (ie. wanted the party to take a 'remain in the EU' stance at a GE) argued for another vote. Just saying.

It was done via a show of hands, and those complaining want to 'go to the cards'. ie: Vote on a piece of card and accurately count the votes.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by zofinger

It does amaze me how people either forget or forgive the last Lab govt. borrowing so much and, in my view, promoted living on benefits as a way of life for some.

Completely agree.

[Scoobyd]

Originally Posted by DaveA

However crackpot/barmy/daft some might think labour plans are.. there are as many folk think the same of the conservative plans...

You’ve made a lot of fair points, but this isn’t one of them.

There’s no way that just as many people in the country think the conservative plans are on a par with, in terms of barmy, some of labours efforts from this conference such as abolishing private schools, abolishing Ofsted, repatriating land and property, 4 day weeks for the same pay in the next decade, forcing right to buy pricing on private landlords for tenants, a second referendum but no commitment to what side they’d campaign for until after an election etc etc.

There’s just not. As I believe will be borne out in the polls when they finally agree to the GE they’ve been calling daily for over the last 2 years.

I genuinely feel the likes of Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne etc would pretty much bankrupt the country just as its slowly starting to climb off its knees after years of tightened purse strings. Let alone the compromise they would be to our safety and security.

This isn’t the Labour Party. Not as we know it. It’s a hard left, socialist, marxist mob. And that’s a crying shame because without a serious, worthy opposition our politics is all the poorer for it.

[MashinBenzin]

They are finished and hopefully for good. The LibDems will wipe them out in the next GE, I believe.

I've voted for them and the Conservatives perhaps 50/50 throughout my life, but would never vote for them again in their current form.

[GBR1]

Best comment so far from the conference..

Stephen Kinnock, the MP for Aberavon, told a fringe meeting Labour now had "more Brexit positions than the Karma Sutra"

Going into a GE by sitting on the fence isn’t going to win any votes..

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

You've made a lot of fair points, but this isn't one of them.

There's no way that just as many people in the country think the conservative plans are on a par with, in terms of barmy, some of labours efforts from this conference such as abolishing private schools, abolishing Ofsted, repatriating land and property, 4 day weeks for the same pay in the next decade, forcing right to buy pricing on private landlords for tenants, a second referendum but no commitment to what side they'd campaign for until after an election etc etc.

There's just not. As I believe will be borne out in the polls when they finally agree to the GE they've been calling daily for over the last 2 years.

I genuinely feel the likes of Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne etc would pretty much bankrupt the country just as its slowly starting to climb off its knees after years of tightened purse strings. Let alone the compromise they would be to our safety and security.

This isn't the Labour Party. Not as we know it. It's a hard left, socialist, marxist mob. And that's a crying shame because without a serious, worthy opposition our politics is all the poorer for it.

At first I thought you were talking about Mugabe and Zimbabwe, and we can see how that ended up.

[mcoops]

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

You've made a lot of fair points, but this isn't one of them.

There's no way that just as many people in the country think the conservative plans are on a par with, in terms of barmy, some of labours efforts from this conference such as abolishing private schools, abolishing Ofsted, repatriating land and property, 4 day weeks for the same pay in the next decade, forcing right to buy pricing on private landlords for tenants, a second referendum but no commitment to what side they'd campaign for until after an election etc etc.

There's just not. As I believe will be borne out in the polls when they finally agree to the GE they've been calling daily for over the last 2 years.

I genuinely feel the likes of Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne etc would pretty much bankrupt the country just as its slowly starting to climb off its knees after years of tightened purse strings. Let alone the compromise they would be to our safety and security.

This isn't the Labour Party. Not as we know it. It's a hard left, socialist, marxist mob. And that's a crying shame because without a serious, worthy opposition our politics is all the poorer for it.

I get both views. I agree Labour win the crackpot policy trophy hands down. But there is an equivalence on some level based on the move to extremes. Labour despise the well off, regardless of how much talent or hard work they demonstrate. The Tories couldn't give two shits about the poor, and blame them for their own poverty regardless of their circumstances.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by mcoops

I get both views. I agree Labour win the crackpot policy trophy hands down. But there is an equivalence on some level based on the move to extremes. Labour despise the well off, regardless of how much talent or hard work they demonstrate. The Tories couldn't give two shits about the poor, and blame them for their own poverty regardless of their circumstances.

so we should all vote for the centrist party.... the days when the Lib Dems were left of Blairite new Labour are long gone, and they are the go to party of choice for all people with sense...

Maybe.... at the moment it is enough they aren't labour or Tory!

[zofinger]

For me though, the Lib Dems are completely ignoring democracy. I know I know...we all have differing views on that and what democracy is. Just my view. Apart from that (akin to what have the "Romans ever done for us") I quite like them!

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by mcoops

I get both views. I agree Labour win the crackpot policy trophy hands down. But there is an equivalence on some level based on the move to extremes. Labour despise the well off, regardless of how much talent or hard work they demonstrate. The Tories couldn't give two shits about the poor, and blame them for their own poverty regardless of their circumstances.

As nutshells go, that's a pretty good 'in a nutshell'

[Bibbles]

Looks like Labour might be saved from crawling up their own arsehole and imploding at their own conference by being called back to parliament.

[Cootie]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

so we should all vote for the centrist party.... the days when the Lib Dems were left of Blairite new Labour are long gone, and they are the go to party of choice for all people with sense...

Maybe.... at the moment it is enough they aren't labour or Tory!

This is where my head is at the moment too.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Bibbles

Looks like Labour might be saved from crawling up their own arsehole and imploding at their own conference by being called back to parliament.

You might be right, which is a shame, as I would have preferred it if they'd completed their mission to render themselves completely unelectable - although most folks have got the picture by now

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

You’ve made a lot of fair points, but this isn’t one of them.

No, on reflection, you do make a good point in that the sentiments that I was trying to express were poorly served by my choice of words/expression…

I think, more accurately expressed, I would say that there are those that think the labour policies ar barmy (or whatever) and there are also those who don’t, and actually see benefit to them I what is being put forwards… and, more fundamentally, are also happy that they are deliverable…

It really comes down to the position from which you are looking at them…

.. as for conservative policy, part of the problem with my originally expressed comment is that I think we are mostly unaware of what their policies will be as, to date, the new government has only really illustrated soundbite ideas, as opposed to core policies… They say they will end austerity, but have not, for instance, and as far as I have read, expressed how they will address some of the same sorts of core issues that labour have identified as big issues for a lot of people…

Perhaps we will know more after next week’s Conservative party conference…

… or maybe not, seeing as Parliament may very well be now sitting again then.

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

There’s no way that just as many people in the country think the conservative plans are on a par with, in terms of barmy, some of labours efforts from this conference such as abolishing private schools, abolishing Ofsted, repatriating land and property, 4 day weeks for the same pay in the next decade, forcing right to buy pricing on private landlords for tenants, a second referendum but no commitment to what side they’d campaign for until after an election etc etc.

At least they are trying to put forward what they would do to address some of the imbalances and problems that have been created... how do we ensure that there is a more consistent level of education across a broader range of schools, providing fairer and more equal opportunity for all... how do we address the problems in the housing sectors... how do we address wage stagnation and poor working conditions etc...

Whether or not folk agree with them, as you say, I guess we will find out...

As for their policies on Brexit, I genuinely do not understand why folk think they need to make any commitment on Brexit beyond what they have already done…?

The division within their party on this issue is simply a reflection of the division is the country as a whole, and that brexit division seems to cut clearly across many ideological lines… It is no wonder that the party is struggling to find a core consensus on leave/remain… The country as a whole struggles with that so why should they find it any easier…

Their position as I understand is… a) they will seek to negotiate a deal with the EU on their terms (we assume along the lines of a customs union)… b) put that deal to the vote with a remain option… and I think that kind of neatly covers many of the bases… and why do they have to campaign one side or the other if they would equally respect both outcomes...? In fact, to campaign one way or the other would make a complete mockery of that position, so would be counter intuitive and counter productive...

The policy does not cover hard Brexit ideology, but there appears little genuine widespread appetite for that, really, within their party, so that would be understandable...

Some of the voters, however, as less shy of "no deal"...

Assuming that many brexit leaning labour voters will align with the idea of a confirmatory vote, and are happy to rule out "no deal", and that remain labour voters will align with the idea of a second vote, then I think the only real brexit-related issue for labour is where people who would have voted for labour but want a hard brexit will place their vote... This is clearly where the brexit party is looking for votes...

The conservatives are simply trying to paint labour with a brush of :against the people"... In fact, the labour stance probably truthfully reflects a far wider range of public opinion than many of the other parties... Liberal, for instance... revocation may be what I, personally, would desire, but that would also be against the desire of a huge number of people in this country... and so will alienate roughly as many voters as it attracts...

Tricky waters to be navigating, for sure...

The best would be to have an election after the whole brexit mess is decided...

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

You might be right, which is a shame, as I would have preferred it if they'd completed their mission to render themselves completely unelectable - although most folks have got the picture by now

Labour are attractive to a great many voters, and are clearly repeatedly targeting a number of core issues and concerns that they have identified as key to those voters... Whether or not those folk alone are enough to deliver an election victory is debatable, but they (as a consequence of these policies) are by no means the busted flush some suggest...

As with all these things, the messages being delivered are clearly meant for the people who will be receptive to them...

... and if we are talking about "electability", then I am not sure that if I was a spin doctor, I would want to be selling a government/party that has just been on the end of today's supreme court ruling... so who knows what changes there will be in conservative policy between now and whenever a GE is...

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Labour are attractive to a great many voters, and are clearly repeatedly targeting a number of core issues and concerns that they have identified as key to those voters... Whether or not those folk alone are enough to deliver an election victory is debatable, but they (as a consequence of these policies) are by no means the busted flush some suggest...

As with all these things, the messages being delivered are clearly meant for the people who will be receptive to them...

... and if we are talking about "electability", then I am not sure that if I was a spin doctor, I would want to be selling a government/party that has just been on the end of today's supreme court ruling... so who knows what changes there will be in conservative policy between now and whenever a GE is...

Don't get me wrong, the current Tory party is woeful. Not even worth debating, imo.
The problem with Labour under Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, McCluskey et al, however, is that they have missed open goal after open goal in opposition, and continue to do so. All of my pro Labour friends and neighbours bar one have stopped supporting the party under Labour. Admittedly, they were Blairites so not surprising really.
As others have pointed out, the two main parties are becoming increasingly polarized, adopting increasingly extreme policies. The only positive is that they are opening up the middle ground for a centrist party to really gain traction, striking a healthy balance between solid public spending, high employment and strong economic growth. I hope the LDs can do this but they have a long way to go.

[mcoops]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Don't get me wrong, the current Tory party is woeful. Not even worth debating, imo.
The problem with Labour under Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne, McCluskey et al, however, is that they have missed open goal after open goal in opposition, and continue to do so. All of my pro Labour friends and neighbours bar one have stopped supporting the party under Labour. Admittedly, they were Blairites so not surprising really.
As others have pointed out, the two main parties are becoming increasingly polarized, adopting increasingly extreme policies. The only positive is that they are opening up the middle ground for a centrist party to really gain traction, striking a healthy balance between solid public spending, high employment and strong economic growth. I hope the LDs can do this but they have a long way to go.

I wish they could, and I will probably vote for them, but they are not making it easy. Ruling out any sort of post-election pact as violently as they have is going to be hard to walk back from. Yet if we are headed for a hung parliament, what else is there? Groundhog day elections like Israel? And after their decimation at the polls last time, their talent pool looks about as deep as a puddle.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by mcoops

I wish they could, and I will probably vote for them, but they are not making it easy. Ruling out any sort of post-election pact as violently as they have is going to be hard to walk back from. Yet if we are headed for a hung parliament, what else is there? Groundhog day elections like Israel? And after their decimation at the polls last time, their talent pool looks about as deep as a puddle.

Talent pool is the problem, as you say. The LDs need a flood of defections from moderate Tory and Labour MPs

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by zofinger

For me though, the Lib Dems are completely ignoring democracy. I know I know...we all have differing views on that and what democracy is. Just my view. Apart from that (akin to what have the "Romans ever done for us") I quite like them!

if they win an election and have a majority to implement their policy I think it is fair to say that democracy has spoken...