[SuperLomi]

2013 335i M-Sport

Suspension mods:
M Performance Struts and Springs
Millway Street Camber Plates
Millway Mono-ball thrust arms bushings

Everything else is original.

I am working on an alignment in my garage, and having an issue with uneven camber when setting the plates to their maximum setting (-22mm).

I started with LH = -1.6 deg with -13mm on the plate and RH = -1.8 deg with -14mm on the plate

LH side camber maxes out at -2.0 deg at -22mm on plates
RH side camber maxes out at -2.5 deg at -22mm on plates (this was the expected result)

I'm concerned that I'm only seeing -0.4mm change on LH side with 9mm of movement on the plate (expected change is 0.8 degrees by Millway's documentation).

The RH side seems to match up with expected change (0.7 deg for a 8mm change).

I have lifted the front end and set it back down to see if the wheel/slip plate was binding, but no change.


I'll be poking around, but figured I see what the brain trust here thinks, and any specific items I might want to check on.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by SuperLomi

2013 335i M-Sport

Suspension mods:
M Performance Struts and Springs
Millway Street Camber Plates
Millway Mono-ball thrust arms bushings

Everything else is original.

I am working on an alignment in my garage, and having an issue with uneven camber when setting the plates to their maximum setting (-22mm).

I started with LH = -1.6 deg with -13mm on the plate and RH = -1.8 deg with -14mm on the plate

LH side camber maxes out at -2.0 deg at -22mm on plates
RH side camber maxes out at -2.5 deg at -22mm on plates (this was the expected result)

I'm concerned that I'm only seeing -0.4mm change on LH side with 9mm of movement on the plate (expected change is 0.8 degrees by Millway's documentation).

The RH side seems to match up with expected change (0.7 deg for a 8mm change).

I have lifted the front end and set it back down to see if the wheel/slip plate was binding, but no change.


I'll be poking around, but figured I see what the brain trust here thinks, and any specific items I might want to check on.

How are you measuring the alignment in your garage? Keep in mind, that unlike an alignment rack, the garage floor is not going to be as level. Additionally a small amount of variance can occur depending on how the plate is bolted to the car, but 0.5 degree seems like quite a lot when it comes to camber angle.

[SuperLomi]

Trust me, I am well aware. I spent a lot of time preparing everything to be able to do this.

I have blocks with leveling feet which I adjust to flat with a spirit level and then level between the blocks with a water level.

Toe is measured with the parallel string method. Camber with digital inclinometer - which while not the most accurate tool for the job, at least gives consistent, repeatable readings. You have to ensure you always measure with the tool in the same orientation.


The interesting thing on this car is the whole left side is camber challenged. Even in the rear I can just barely achieve -2.0 degrees on the left wheel at maximum adjustment, while the RH still has plenty of adjustment left.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by SuperLomi

I'll be poking around, but figured I see what the brain trust here thinks, and any specific items I might want to check on.

My question is what did you start out with, was the camber already different side to side?

There is a reason why camber correction hub/carriers (+/- 30min) are available.

[SuperLomi]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

My question is what did you start out with, was the camber already different side to side?

There is a reason why camber correction hub/carriers (+/- 30min) are available.

The starting measure is in my post. There was about a mm or so difference in the camber plate setting to begin with, and a 0.2 degree difference by my measure.


Now the Lh is set at max (-22mm), RH is at just over -16mm (expected change to hit -2.0 degrees)


Based on the advertised rate change from Millway, the LH should have been able to get to -2.6 degrees. So only hitting -2.0 is weird.
I don't have the print out any more, but IIRC before I put the plates on cross camber was fairly even - with-in a degree or so. That would have been well over a year ago though. Lot can change between then and now.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by SuperLomi

The starting measure is in my post. There was about a mm or so difference in the camber plate setting to begin with, and a 0.2 degree difference by my measure.

Just to clarify, I was thinking before your mods, the OE setup.

Say your cambers were up to 0.5 degrees different 'combined' across the axle, (which would be within BMW's tolerance), that could well run through to your mods. Making it impossible to get the expected camber on one side.

[Jvac]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Just to clarify, I was thinking before your mods, the OE setup.

Say your cambers were up to 0.5 degrees different 'combined' across the axle, (which would be within BMW's tolerance), that could well run through to your mods. Making it impossible to get the expected camber on one side.

Agreed - what were the alignment specs prior to modding? Are you the original owner? We're missing some information. It's possible there was some damage or uneven alignment from side to side that's factoring in. As a comparison, I recently had one strut slip loose and go full stop to the positive end on my front Camber plate. Not sure how it happened, I just noticed one day the wheel was practically rubbing the top of the fender arch. In my garage I loosened and readjusted it to match the other side, just by eye. Then I took it to the alignment shop to get it properly set, but they were both bang on at - 2, just where I wanted them. Alignment tech was pretty amazed. You've gone at this with far more sophistication and tooling than me but are coming in way off the target, which makes me wonder if something isn't bent somewhere in there...

[SuperLomi]

Yeah, definitely wondering regarding past history. I'm 3rd owner.. Nothing comes up on the history report, but that doesn't mean it never had a bad bump. There's no obvious visible damage/bending.

Prior to the camber plate, m-performance strut and spring, and mono-ball thrust arm install my recollection is both sides were fairly even - with-in a few tenths of a degree. But I don't have that sheet anymore.

After mod install, prior to this alignment, the car was set up at a shop with a hunter machine. When I installed the parts I set both sides at -10mm on the plates. Attached is their alignment. Only change from then to now being wheels. You can see with the plates set even at that time, the dif was only 0.1

So you can see about 6 months later, I am getting differing camber measurements, but not a huge difference. If I had to guess I might attribute that to settling of the suspension, and or some difference in equipment accuracy.

I did run the full range on adjustment on the LH side just to see. And it would adjust from -0.3 to -2.0. I didn't do the same with the RH, but I may play with it just to see next time I have the car up. I also haven't confirmed if ride height is even. it's on the list.


I'm less concerned about the overall difference, and more concerned about why the rate of change in camber was significantly off from expectation when moving up. Miller advertises 0.09 deg per mm, and it seemed like I was getting about half that. However, moving down to the minimum setting from the 1.6 initial, it does seem to match, which is weird. It's almost non-linear on that side.

[Jvac]

Yeah, that's strange. How did things go astray since then...

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by Jvac

Agreed - what were the alignment specs prior to modding? Are you the original owner? We're missing some information. It's possible there was some damage or uneven alignment from side to side that's factoring in. As a comparison, I recently had one strut slip loose and go full stop to the positive end on my front Camber plate. Not sure how it happened, I just noticed one day the wheel was practically rubbing the top of the fender arch. In my garage I loosened and readjusted it to match the other side, just by eye. Then I took it to the alignment shop to get it properly set, but they were both bang on at - 2, just where I wanted them. Alignment tech was pretty amazed. You've gone at this with far more sophistication and tooling than me but are coming in way off the target, which makes me wonder if something isn't bent somewhere in there...

I wonder too if the strut hasn't slipped further down into the carrier causing the camber to be off. It was also mentioned there are different carriers. In RealOEM there appear to be 3 part numbers. I am assuming the part number with no camber correction is 0 camber while there are two additional part numbers corresponding to +0.5 and -0.5. They would be pretty much indistinguishable unless you held them side by side. An alternative would be to set the camber to 0 degrees on both plates then using a spirit level, check to see if one carrier is 0.5 off from the other.


Image: realoem.com

The part numbers on a 2013 335i are

Carrier, left 31216792287
Carrier, right 31216792288
Pivot bearing, camber correction, left -30MIN 31216854199 (used on the M135i/M235i)
Swivel bearing, camber correction, right -30MIN 31216854200 (used on the M135i/M235i)
Pivot bearing, camber correction, left +30MIN 31216854197
Swivel bearing, camber correction, right +30MIN 31216854198

Oddly, three names for the same part. Carrier, pivot bearing, and swivel bearing. It's pretty confusing but could be one way to explain a change of 0.5 degrees (i.e. 30 min)

[Jvac]

Originally Posted by casualDIYer

I wonder too if the strut hasn't slipped further down into the carrier causing the camber to be off. It was also mentioned there are different carriers. In RealOEM there appear to be 3 part numbers. I am assuming the part number with no camber correction is 0 camber while there are two additional part numbers corresponding to +0.5 and -0.5. They would be pretty much indistinguishable unless you held them side by side. An alternative would be to set the camber to 0 degrees on both plates then using a spirit level, check to see if one carrier is 0.5 off from the other.

Attachment 3131535
Image: realoem.com

The part numbers on a 2013 335i are

Carrier, left 31216792287
Carrier, right 31216792288
Pivot bearing, camber correction, left -30MIN 31216854199 (used on the M135i/M235i)
Swivel bearing, camber correction, right -30MIN 31216854200 (used on the M135i/M235i)
Pivot bearing, camber correction, left +30MIN 31216854197
Swivel bearing, camber correction, right +30MIN 31216854198

Oddly, three names for the same part. Carrier, pivot bearing, and swivel bearing. It's pretty confusing but could be one way to explain a change of 0.5 degrees (i.e. 30 min)

Makes perfect sense in the realm of bmw, where everything is totally confusing by design, I think. Discouraging diy work has to be a concerted effort at the corporate level.
From past discussions I recall these +-camber hubs were meant to correct suspension geometry in cases of irreparable damage ie subframe or frame bent. Why they needed 3 separate names is another discussion...

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by Jvac

Makes perfect sense in the realm of bmw, where everything is totally confusing by design, I think. Discouraging diy work has to be a concerted effort at the corporate level.
From past discussions I recall these +-camber hubs were meant to correct suspension geometry in cases of irreparable damage ie subframe or frame bent. Why they needed 3 separate names is another discussion...

That actually makes a lot of sense. A slightly bent subframe isn't going to prevent the car from being driven. I've got a friend who is a BMW tech and he tells tales of customers driving over curbs or barriers during parking and bending their subframes in the process. That could be a $400 fix rather than a $4000 one.

As for BMW nonsense, it can be confusing but then I tried to help out a friend with a VW. Holy crap it's terrible. Good luck finding any correct parts. VW DIY is a true skill.

[SuperLomi]

I have previously confirmed the hubs are the standard part number, not a camber correcting hub.

As far as naming goes: I actually work for a car manufacturer, and have been involved in vehicle development as part of my job. If I had to guess, it’s possible they gave them unique names to help prevent the parts being confused with each other. Aka: standard part is “Carrier”. LH side corrections are “pivot”, RH side corrections are “swivel”.


Anyway, at the end of the day, if I can’t see any obvious cause I’m just going to throw K-Mac bushings on and call it a day. I’d like to get to at least -3.0 degrees in the front anyway.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by SuperLomi

I have previously confirmed the hubs are the standard part number, not a camber correcting hub.

As far as naming goes: I actually work for a car manufacturer, and have been involved in vehicle development as part of my job. If I had to guess, it’s possible they gave them unique names to help prevent the parts being confused with each other. Aka: standard part is “Carrier”. LH side corrections are “pivot”, RH side corrections are “swivel”.


Anyway, at the end of the day, if I can’t see any obvious cause I’m just going to throw K-Mac bushings on and call it a day. I’d like to get to at least -3.0 degrees in the front anyway.

Wondering what the difference between a bushing and a camber plate would be. My understanding is the bushing, since it pushes the wheel out at the bottom also affect the caster but only to a limited degree. Wondering if there might be a problem with the wheel hitting the struct. I am running 255s in the front.

[SuperLomi]

Camber changes with bushings or camber plates move the wheel and strut together. It wont cause clearance issues.

Only the camber correction hubs change clearance, because they change the angle where the wheel mounts.